Luke 16:19-31 Why are there only two fixed "States" in eternity mentioned here?

[zz912]

As all truly converted sinners evidence good works or show the fruits of their conversion,In way of argument I am somewhat limited in my choice ,as all show good works.

Completely disagree and totally unbiblical. When we become Christians, we do not lose our free will, and God does not make us robots. We have choices each day to make, about whether we will serve God and follow His commandments. As Christ said, we must pick up our cross DAILY.

And St. Peter warns us of true Christians who have fallen. So even someone who is truly converted can at some point in the future make a decision to refuse to obey God. That doesn’t mean that they were not true Christians or truly converted.

*2 Pet 2:17 These people are waterless springs and mists driven by a gale; for them the gloom of darkness has been reserved. 18 For, talking empty bombast, they seduce with licentious desires of the flesh those who have barely escaped from people who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, though they themselves are slaves of corruption, for a person is a slave of whatever overcomes him. 20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. 22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.” *

Perhaps I may go to the unrepentant thief on his cross ? I say perhaps because in Catholic understanding of Purgatory ,this man’s lack of good works,(we would both agree this man evidenced no good fruit) would not necessarily exclude him from purgatory.

Disagree. His fruits are STILL being shown every time that someone reads of his good deeds and decides to emulate them, or gains encouragement from them, or increases their faith because of them. His good fruits are TREMENDOUS. Here we are 2,000 years after he did his good works, and they are STILL producing good fruit all over the world. We could only wish to have such a great impact!!!

So on the one hand I have to avoid the fruitful ,were an undisclosed amount of good works allows one to avoid it altogether;
and on the other hand ,I have to avoid the fruitless,because
an undisclosed level of badness would not necessarily exclude him from purgatory.
Correct?

Not sure what you are asking here. We need Purgatory if we have sins that have not been satisfied or venial sins forgiven, or if we have attachment to sin that needs to be burned away. Does that answer your question?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Robyn p;11596681:

Thanks Bernard for responding. I don’t quite see though how that relates to or proves my argument invalid. (I’m not trying to be rude, just trying to understand so we’re not talking past each other here) I’m struggling to see how him judging them changes anything. He still used that odd phrase of “either in this age, or in the one to come.”

No Robyn I don’t think it is rude at all.

Perhaps,for a time anyway,we could maybe focus on the first part of the verse we are discussing and maybe it would help us both come to a better understanding of each other’s views .

Matt 12:32 " but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,it shall not be forgiven him,neither in this world"

Could you please tell me why on earth was there no forgiveness here? Especially since the saviour was about to offer himself up upon the cross ,as that spotless. “Lamb of God ,which taketh away the
Sin of the world”
Even while Jesus was speaking to them here ,there was a “priesthood;” and the sacrifice of “the sin offering” according to the law of Moses.

As it says, for both the Old and the New Testaments, “without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins”
But with it,in type, in the old and in reality in the new :there is!

Why also cannot “Purgatory” ( as you understand it) do its perfecting work and purify in this instance?
Can it be established at this point in time that even of Purgatory :

“it shall not be forgiven him,neither”?

Pardon my rather basic questions Robyn ,but in my zeal to show forth (in all dispensations ) the cleansing efficacy of “the blood of the Lamb”(of God)

It was my desire to show that we both believe ,(at least on earth anyway ) that “with the shedding of blood there is”, “remission of sins”

Am I correct in assuming that in your own understanding ,after earth or rather at ones own death ,this cleansing is only part complete ,and so it would be fair then to add this:

without purgatory ," there is no remission of sins"?

If it was then the eternal Son of God who offered himself up for the sins of his people ,why then does not "the blood of Jesus " cleanse in eternity?
Is its ( the precious bloods’) power to cleanse dependent and not independent ?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Bernard Lyons;11603025:

Pardon my rather basic questions Robyn ,but in my zeal to show forth (in all dispensations ) the cleansing efficacy of “the blood of the Lamb”(of God) It was my desire to show that we both believe ,on earth anyway ,that “with the shedding of blood there is”, “remission of sins”

Am I correct in assuming that in your understanding ,after earth ,(or at ones own death) this cleansing is only part complete and so it would be fair then to add :without purgatory" there is no remission of sins"?
If it was the eternal Son of God who offered up himself for sins ,why then does not "the blood of Jesus " cleanse in eternity?

No that is not correct at all.

God uses processes. He uses man and communes with man. Surely you would not deny that God can snap his fingers and make us all holy. Or for that matter destroy the world by saying it should be so.

Instead he revealed himself to the Hebrews and instituted this large sacrificial system. He came to earth and died for us and in our place.

Why?

We don’t know. Other than to say God chooses to do so. He chooses to have us choose him.

He chooses that we be truly sanctified. That we be made truly righteous and that we join him in glory.

What is a legal declaration of righteousness to God? Even after we become Christians we sin. Something has to be done to make us so we do not do that. That something is the Purgation of our sinful nature after death.

It is completely separate from Christ’s sacrifice for our sins on the cross. Without Christ’s sacrifice their is no payment for sins and we die in our sins. Instead he paid our penalty, conquered death and opens heaven up to us.

In my opinion when we die, we encounter our loving savior and all sin and falsehood melts away and is purged and we join him in glory.

A recent Pope agrees with me on that.

"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”…

–Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11628602:

No that is not correct at all.

God uses processes. He uses man and communes with man. Surely you would not deny that God can snap his fingers and make us all holy. Or for that matter destroy the world by saying it should be so.
END QUOTE.

Yes it would be a wonderful temptation ( for the flesh in us) to desire a “cross free” path in this life.
But I have to say ,were we differ in all this Jon, is where Purgatory starts and ends.For us who believe that when it says :

"These are they that came out of great tribulations and have washed their robes,and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"Rev7:14.

It starts at “conversion” and ends with the body dropping off,(so to speak )
This I say refers to our earthly pilgrimage ,and here at least Jon we can agree in the existence of Purgatory ;

But it is for us experienced through the seemingly cruel provinces of God ,which go against our every fleshly desire ,so we know by experience what the prophet Daniel’s three friends discovered ur walk is into the furnace and the mouth of the fire( made seven times hotter and this God in advance has caused to burn for us) but the consolation in the company,especially that of the fourth: “and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God”(Daniel 3:25)

Not that we can reach perfection here( we both would agree on this ) but our passage is through this narrow gate " “because straight is the gate and narrow is the way,which leadeth unto life”

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;11628640:

Bernard Lyons;11628602:

No that is not correct at all.

God uses processes. He uses man and communes with man. Surely you would not deny that God can snap his fingers and make us all holy. Or for that matter destroy the world by saying it should be so.

Yes it would be a wonderful temptation ( for the flesh in us) to desire a “cross free” path in this life ,but this is were we differ in all this Jon, for us who believe
that when it says :

"These are they that came out of great tribulations and have washed their robes,and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"Rev7:14.

This I say refers to our earthly pilgrimage ,and here at least Jon we can agree in the existence of Purgatory ;

But it is for us experienced through the seemingly cruel provinces of God ,which go against our every fleshly desire ,so we know by experience what the prophet Daniel’s three friends discovered ur walk is into the furnace and the mouth of the fire( made seven times hotter and that by God in advance )

Not that we can reach perfection here( we both would agree on this ) but our passage is through this narrow gate " “because straight is the gate and narrow is the way,which leadeth unto life”

I find it curious you believe in a need for earthly sanctification if after we die there is no need for sanctification?

Do you believe that we can “sin and sin boldly” since Christ paid the price we have a free pass?

If God begins our sanctification here, would it not follow that the culmination of it all in heaven was in fact. "Finishing the race "

It may help you to realize the souls undergoing purgation do nothing for themselves. It is all of God and by God.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11628880:

Jon S;11628640:

I find it curious you believe in a need for earthly sanctification if after we die there is no need for sanctification?

(1) It is not possible to sanctify ourselves here either ,except it is by way of “substitution " and also Christ Jesus saying” it is finished "

and this applying there too.

All we ever can do (through our death in him) is declared : these washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" ( see also 1Corinthians 1:30)
“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,who of God is made unto us wisdom,and righteousness and sanctification and redemption .”

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11628880:

Jon S;11628640:

Do you believe that we can “sin and sin boldly” since Christ paid the price we have a free pass?.

(2). Romans6:1
" What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin ,that grace may abound?"

Is this not The very same question(and reasoning ) you are asking of me ?

Paul’s own answer to this( and also to his own hypothetical questioner too) question:

(Rom6:2,3)
“God forbid.How shall we then that are dead to sin ,live any longer therein?
Know ye not ,that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.” (verse 6 )

“knowing this,that our old man is crucified with him,that the body of sin might be destroyed,that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

We both would say ,that when Paul says here " we then that are dead to sin" ,he is not saying that literally ,we have no sin.( or dead to sinning)

But we are seen only as dead in our substitute who was made to become “the body of sin” which was “destroyed”

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;11628895:

Bernard Lyons;11628880:

(1) It is not possible to sanctify ourselves here either ,except it is by way of “substitution " and also Christ Jesus saying” it is finished "

and this applying there too.

All we ever can do (through our death in him) is declared : these washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" ( see also 1Corinthians 1:30)
“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,who of God is made unto us wisdom,and righteousness and sanctification and redemption .”

And so you believe we should not strive to live a godly life?

Or at least the serial rapist who professes Christ and the Saint are in heaven at the same time both given a robe to cover their sin while they retain their filth.

You have a fundamental error.

No sin can enter heaven. None. A sinner with white clothes is still a sinner.

We must be transformed. It starts here and ends there.

If we are made perfect in heaven no more sickness pain tears…is it really so hard to believe God will make us holy and righteous and sinless?

 

[Robyn_p]

Pardon my rather basic questions Robyn ,but in my zeal to show forth (in all dispensations ) the cleansing efficacy of “the blood of the Lamb”(of God)

It was my desire to show that we both believe ,(at least on earth anyway ) that “with the shedding of blood there is”, “remission of sins”

Am I correct in assuming that in your own understanding ,after earth or rather at ones own death ,this cleansing is only part complete ,and so it would be fair then to add this:

without purgatory ," there is no remission of sins"?

If it was then the eternal Son of God who offered himself up for the sins of his people ,why then does not "the blood of Jesus " cleanse in eternity?
Is its ( the precious bloods’) power to cleanse dependent and not independent ?

I think Jon S basically said what I would have said in reply, so Bernard, can I ask you a question instead? What is it exactly that you disagree with about the doctrine of purgatory? I feel like we can get further in our discussion if we know where you’re coming from and what exactly your objection is.

Thanks.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11628602:

Instead he revealed himself to the Hebrews and instituted this large sacrificial system. He came to earth and died for us and in our place.

Why?

If you would permit ,may I ask a question with a question ?( Luke 20:4)

If it is true ,as you say above : Christ " died for us and in our place" (and suffered for us too)

If you truly believe this ,why then would this righteous God ,who himself provided the substitute and then punished him ( in the person of his own son) in our place ;whom he “made to be sin” and for for sins(of his people) he punished him ;How is it that, after doing this , he(God) also causes the believer ( in Christ) to suffer in Purgatory as well ?
Because without controversy,the purpose of purgatory (in its out working ) is no doubt (to those who believe in it) the removal of ( the residue ) the sin from the soul of the person(believer in Jesus)

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;11628640:

Why?

If you would permit ,may I ask a question with a question ?( Luke 20:4)

If it is true ,as you say above : Christ " died for us and in our place" (and suffered for us too)if you believe this ,why then would this righteous God ,who himself provided the substitute then punished him ( in the person of his own son)whom he “made to be sin” ,and for for sins,to punished him ;How is it that he also causes the believer ( in Christ) to suffer later on( in Purgatory) as well?

Because that is not what Purgatory is!

Ok Bernard. I think we can get on the same page if we remove preconceived notions.

So humor me.

Pretend you never heard of Purgatory.

Ok, So I tell you that Purgatory is the transforming that takes place between death and heaven. Perhaps instantaneously.

You say. Ok (I hope)

Now I tell you. As part of the purgation we are freed of our attachment of sin and answer for the temporal consequences of our sins.

You say - What do you mean temporal consequences?

Well, I mean the problems our sins caused in the world.

You say, Jesus paid for our sins.

I say, yes yes he did ! He paid the eternal consequence of our sin. Something we could never do. He forgives us. That doesn’t mean our sin doesn’t affect us and leave an ugly mark on our soul.

So I tell you an analogy:

Let’s say you throw a rock through my window. You repent, go to confession, are forgiven, and get absolution. Jesus paid for your sin. But what about my window? Does Jesus pay for it? No, that’s your responsibility. Paying for the window is the temporal punishment for throwing a rock through it.

But what about all the “broken windows” we did not get around to paying for in our lives, metaphorically speaking? God’s justice needs to be satisfied, and that is why there is purgatory. Temporal punishment occurs in this life, or the next. And God is so loving He accepts our prayers in lieu of after-death purification.

You see as CS Lewis says, Purgatory is just Jesus washing our soul clean.

 

[Robyn_p]

Because that is not what Purgatory is!

Ok Bernard. I think we can get on the same page if we remove preconceived notions.

So humor me.

Pretend you never heard of Purgatory.

Ok, So I tell you that Purgatory is the transforming that takes place between death and heaven. Perhaps instantaneously.

You say. Ok (I hope)

Now I tell you. As part of the purgation we are freed of our attachment of sin and answer for the temporal consequences of our sins.

You say - What do you mean temporal consequences?

Well, I mean the problems our sins caused in the world.

You say, Jesus paid for our sins.

I say, yes yes he did ! He paid the eternal consequence of our sin. Something we could never do. He forgives us. That doesn’t mean our sin doesn’t affect us and leave an ugly mark on our soul.

So I tell you an analogy:

Let’s say you throw a rock through my window. You repent, go to confession, are forgiven, and get absolution. Jesus paid for your sin. But what about my window? Does Jesus pay for it? No, that’s your responsibility. Paying for the window is the temporal punishment for throwing a rock through it.

But what about all the “broken windows” we did not get around to paying for in our lives, metaphorically speaking? God’s justice needs to be satisfied, and that is why there is purgatory. Temporal punishment occurs in this life, or the next. And God is so loving He accepts our prayers in lieu of after-death purification.

You see as CS Lewis says, Purgatory is just Jesus washing our soul clean.

:clapping:

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11630006:

Jon S;11628895:

And so you believe we should not strive to live a godly life?

Or at least the serial rapist who professes Christ and the Saint are in heaven at the same time both given a robe to cover their sin while they retain their filth.

This was answered in a previous(#46)post Jon, about Rom 6 :1,2 , perhaps you did not realise when saying
" what shall we say then ? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? "

Paul is helping us to understand here ,the depth of this false accusation against his own ministry and using an hypothetical questioner ,who appears on the surface to be sympathetic to Paul’s liberty in the Gospel,but in reality was criticising it.

“what shall” WE " say then?"

but Paul is using this questioner ,no doubts a very real charge and accusation against his own teachings,and so he answers to the charges accordingly.

Was Paul then a bad example in the Christian’s path of an holy life?

 

[RC_David333]

**the Catholic monk, brother Dimond, totally destroys the heretical arguments of the calvinist in this debate. Here is the link to that debate…

youtube.com/watch?v=Qn1vC1Ez-OI

To learn more about brother Dimond, his Monastery and the true teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ, then please visit VaticanCatholic.com or MostHolyFamilyMonastery.com **

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11630161:

Because that is not what Purgatory is!

Ok Bernard. I think we can get on the same page if we remove preconceived notions.

So humor me.

Pretend you never heard of Purgatory.

My whole point of reference (so far anyway )is that I have "never heard of Purgatory "(in the holy scriptures) Jon.

With such a crucial doctrine as purgatory, ( because it’s subject matter relates to men in their sins)
mere reasoning will not do :
such reasoning I say, as saying “the word Trinity is not in scripture either.”
Why ?
Because teaching relating to the three persons of the Godhead clearly is.

Also because that Christ’s death blow to sin and being the substitute , for the sins of his people, is everywhere clearly taught.

In the Old Testament ,I have heard of two fixed states (one of suffering,the other of Joy ) in “Abrahams bosom”.

In the New Testament ,the believer is joined to Christ by the Holy Ghost (“no not that your bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost”?)

At the Coming of The Lord :those alive at the time, in an instance (" or twinkling of the eye") are seen with Christ( "and so shall we ever be with The Lord ")

At the judgement only two states ( or character ) are seen : " sheep and goats".

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

I think Jon S basically said what I would have said in reply, so Bernard, can I ask you a question instead? What is it exactly that you disagree with about the doctrine of purgatory? I feel like we can get further in our discussion if we know where you’re coming from and what exactly your objection is.

Thanks.

Hi Robyn ,yes good (basic )question ( with my basic questions to you ,this was my desire too)

If there is not then, in reality, any opportunity for the sinner( which we all are) to be cleansed from sin and sins ,after death ,then the whole, (cleansing) and process must be completed beforehand.
That is to say,that Christ by the shedding of his blood ,obtained an “eternal inheritance ,” on behalf of all for whom he died ;and so redeemed them from there all their sins ,then and there at Golgotha ) when he died( witnessed by his resurrection).

Purgatory ( I believe ) would offer therefore, a hope after death not there.

If as you affirm ,purgatory is a reality and a real place and process, what advantages would it give to me , that is ,in reality ,both right now and in eternity, things that is ,that my view and belief ,shown above, would not give to me?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Fix your quote feature guys

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi Robyn ,yes good (basic )question ( with my basic questions to you ,this was my desire too)

If there is not then, in reality, any opportunity for the sinner( which we all are) to be cleansed from sin and sins ,after death ,then the whole, (cleansing) and process must be completed beforehand.
That is to say,that Christ by the shedding of his blood ,obtained an “eternal inheritance ,” on behalf of all for whom he died ;and so redeemed them from there all their sins ,then and there at Golgotha ) when he died( witnessed by his resurrection).

Purgatory ( I believe ) would offer therefore, a hope after death not there.

If as you affirm ,purgatory is a reality and a real place and process, what advantages would it give to me , that is ,in reality ,both right now and in eternity, things that is ,that my view and belief ,shown above, would not give to me?

This is a straw man . The church clearly teaches there are no second chances after death. Let’s stick to what the church actually teaches.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;11630173:

My whole point of reference (so far anyway )is that I have "never heard of Purgatory “(in the holy scriptures) Jon.”.

I will argue there is just as much evidence for Purgatory as the Trinity in the Bible. Please note that plenty of Bible Alone Christians reject the Trinity. That is because you need the church to point it out and then you see it in the Bible. Same with Purgatory.

Now to address point one There is not one explicit (or implicit) verse advocating the concept of purgatory. I will grant him that there is no explicit verse, just as there is no explicit verse to detail the Trinity. There is however many implicit verses of which this doctrine originates. Let’s examine some of these verses.

First, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 which reads as follows:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I have yet to see a Protestant explanation of these verses. How under the idea of Sola Fide can one be saved but only as escaping through the flames while suffering loss? The only explanation for what St. Paul writes here is an understanding of Purgatory. You see if what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward, if it is burned up, he will still be saved but will be purified prior to receiving his reward in heaven. Of course this does not mean a literal fire, God’s love is often referred to as a fire, this is a metaphor for the sanctification process. Many protestants know the praise song, Refiner’s Fire, and this is that same sort of fire.

Another verse is Matthew 12:32

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus explicitly states in this verse that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME. If there was no purification of sins after death, no further reconciliation with God after we die, then there would be no need to say that the sins would not be forgiven now or then. Jesus would have simply said that person’s sins would not be forgiven, period. This opinion was held by many of the “men of old” including; St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

The parable of Luke 16 is another good example describing a waiting place for righteous men to be made perfect in Christ, known as Abraham’s bosom.

"…the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.”

The righteous men of old were waiting here for Christ to open heaven by his atoning work on the cross. Once that happened as is stated in 1 Peter 3:19-20 “he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.” This verse certainly alludes to the fact that there is a possibility of more than just God’s presence or hell. It supports the possibility and likeliness of a third place, where one, even the righteous men of old in this case, can wait to be made perfect for God’s presence.

We can see further reference to this idea of purgatory in 1 Corinthians 15:29 “Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?” What on earth could this verse mean, other than it is beneficial to pray for the dead and their purification?

One final verse that I like to point out is often used to support the doctrine of the Communion of Saints, but I think there is some application here as well. Hebrews 12:22-24 states:

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

How were these spirits of the righteous made perfect? Through God’s purifying love, through the refiner’s fire, through the state of being that is purgatory.

 

[Robyn_p]

Hi Robyn ,yes good (basic )question ( with my basic questions to you ,this was my desire too)

If there is not then, in reality, any opportunity for the sinner( which we all are) to be cleansed from sin and sins ,after death ,then the whole, (cleansing) and process must be completed beforehand.

Thanks Bernard! I’m curious about your statement though, that there can’t be opportunity for cleansing of sins after death. What makes you say that? Is there anything in Scripture that supports that statement?

Purgatory ( I believe ) would offer therefore, a hope after death not there.

If by this you mean purgatory offers a second chance, that’s not the case, as Jon showed.

But I do agree that purgatory is an offer of hope. Hope that even if at death I’m not wholly purified from all sin and attachment to sin (which at this moment I’m definitely not) I still will be able to eventually be perfectly cleansed, and God’s work which He began in me here will come to perfection and completion. I think that’s a very good hope to have personally.

If as you affirm ,purgatory is a reality and a real place and process, what advantages would it give to me , that is ,in reality ,both right now and in eternity, things that is ,that my view and belief ,shown above, would not give to me?

Do you mean what advantage does believing in purgatory give you or what advantage does the existence of Purgatory itself give you?

For the latter - if purgatory really exists, and if when most of us die we still aren’t perfectly purified, then it’s existence gives us great hope, since nothing unclean can enter into heaven. Very big advantage I’d say! :yup:

For the former, maybe a lot, maybe nothing, I really can’t say. I’d have to let someone who previously didn’t believe in purgatory and now does answer that one. Maybe I’ll start a new thread on that topic, that would be interesting, actually.

But advantages shouldn’t be our top criteria in deciding what to believe. Rather, I think you would agree with me that we should conform ourselves to what is true and reject what is false. That should be our first priority right?

Advantages will follow, but what matters is truth.