Luke 17:20 Proves the Church is Invisible

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Often Protestants will quote Luke 17:20 to prove the point that there is no physical authoritative church on earth. I.e. the Catholic Church. That the “church”, or kingdom is within each of us. Therefore, Jesus didn’t really establish an earthly authority.

How do you answer that? Is there a clearer distinction between Kingdom and Church that supports the Church, it’s authority, etc.

I’m sure Luke 17:20 is being used out of context, but I don’t know exactly how.

Thanks!
 
catechizeme said:
Often Protestants will quote Luke 17:20 to prove the point that there is no physical authoritative church on earth. I.e. the Catholic Church. That the “church”, or kingdom is within each of us. Therefore, Jesus didn’t really establish an earthly authority.

How do you answer that? Is there a clearer distinction between Kingdom and Church that supports the Church, it’s authority, etc.

I’m sure Luke 17:20 is being used out of context, but I don’t know exactly how.

Thanks!
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The first and foremost thing that we need to do is to look at that passage in context and go on from there.
20 And being asked by the Pharisees, “when the kingdom of God should come?” [Jesus] answered them, and said: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 And he said to his disciples: “The days will come, when you shall desire to see one day of the Son of man; and you shall not see it.
23 And they will say to you: See here, and see there. Go ye not after, nor follow them:
24 For as the lightning that lighteneth from under heaven, shineth unto the parts that are under heaven, so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat and drink, they married wives, and were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark: and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it came to pass, in the days of Lot: they did eat and drink, they bought and sold, they planted and built.
29 And in the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man shall be revealed.
31 In that hour, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and he that shall be in the field, in like manner, let him not return back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose it, shall preserve it.
34 I say to you: in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together: the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left: two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”
36 They answering, say to him: “Where, Lord?”
37 Who said to them: “Wheresoever the body shall be, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.”
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patrick457 said:
The first and foremost thing that we need to do is to look at that passage in context and go on from there.
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😉 My name is “catechizeme”. I’m reading that very passage, since I have the RSV in front of me. I need supporting arguments against it’s use to prove there is not authoritative church. :rolleyes:

Thanks
 
catechizeme said:
😉 My name is “catechizeme”. I’m reading that very passage, since I have the RSV in front of me. I need supporting arguments against it’s use to prove there is not authoritative church. :rolleyes:

Thanks
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Well, if Jesus never meant to build an actual, visible Church why did He say to Peter 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church’ or ‘I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven’ (both Matt. 16: 18) if there is not a visible Church? What’s the point of appointing a vicar (representative) or calling the Church ‘Church’ if the Church is invisible and is composed of many Churches anyway?

Jesus also said that if one had a grieviance, one should 'tell it to the Church’. (Matt. 18: 17) How are we supposed to tell if the Church is unseen? Plus, he said ‘Church’ in the singular. If the Church was actually composed of many churches, which church should we tell on our grieviance?
 
Isn’t that passage like the section of the Lord’s Prayer where we pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven?

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, Lo, here it is!' or There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

I don’t understand what the protestants you’re speaking with are trying to say. It kinda sounds like a stretch to me. Here it seems to me Jesus means exactly what he says. God’s kingdom is here and now, so we need to get our act together and behave like it. How does that passage even hint that Jesus is saying the church lacks authority? :confused:
 
catechizeme said:
Often Protestants will quote Luke 17:20 to prove the point that there is no physical authoritative church on earth. I.e. the Catholic Church. That the “church”, or kingdom is within each of us. Therefore, Jesus didn’t really establish an earthly authority.

How do you answer that? Is there a clearer distinction between Kingdom and Church that supports the Church, it’s authority, etc.

I’m sure Luke 17:20 is being used out of context, but I don’t know exactly how.

Thanks!
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Actually it’s a question of translation. “Entos humon” could mean “within each one of you,” but it’s more likely to mean “within you as a group–i.e., among you or in your midst,” and most modern translations go with this (this will not help you if the person you’re arguing with is a strict KJV defender!). I grew up with this understanding as well, and it was quite a shock to realize that the Greek was ambiguous at best. For a while I argued that the modern translators were biased against the “spiritual” understanding, but eventually I came around!

Of course it is true that the Kingdom is in our hearts–but not only there! It’s not an either/or, necessarily.

Edwin
 
catechizeme said:
Often Protestants will quote Luke 17:20 to prove the point that there is no physical authoritative church on earth. I.e. the Catholic Church. That the “church”, or kingdom is within each of us. Therefore, Jesus didn’t really establish an earthly authority.

How do you answer that? Is there a clearer distinction between Kingdom and Church that supports the Church, it’s authority, etc.

I’m sure Luke 17:20 is being used out of context, but I don’t know exactly how.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
It is quite possible that Jesus did not directly establish the current form of Church authority while on earth, but rather entrusted the development of these structures to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:26) Unfortunately for the adherents of sola scriptura these structures of authority were well established before the end of the first century, and are therefore outlined within later books of the NT.

Acts 15 Council of Jerusalem

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

I Timothy 3:1, 5
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work…For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

I Peter 5:1-5
So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:7, 17
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.…Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
When one attends a event, conference etc, there is always a unity of believers even if from various protestant churches.

I remember being at a Baptist retreat and the guest speaker was Lutheran, taught us pre written prayers, it was wonderful.

Maybe Ive been blessed not to attend a particular church and have gone to different ones, not looking for a home, but just joining my friends in worship and supporting each other in the Lord. Ive found God to be at them all.

Unity, one but not the same, thats what I think of when I think of the “Church” anyway. Its bigger than the buildings we go to, there are tons of people who will never get the chance to attend any church, but believe in Jesus. They are part of that church.

besides famililes cannot even agree on things, what makes us think that humanity as a whole is going to agree on a form of worship? But Who we worship, now thats something we can agree on. 🙂
 
Scripture taken out of context proves only that someone’s trying to pull a fast one.

Were we to play this game, I would simply say, “Matthew 10:26 proves that the Church is visible”:

**26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. **

Absent context, how can you tell me it does not mean what I say it means? If we each interpret equally, how can you claim your interpretation superior to mine?

This is the problem with Bible Bingo, the game beloved of our Protestant brothers and sisters.

The substantive response, from Matthew 18:

15: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17: And if he shall neglect to hear them,** tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church**, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19: Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

If the Church were invisible, where precisely would we turn to fulfill Christ’s command of brotherly correction?
 
savedsinner said:
I think that verse is talking about the end times when the kingdom of God comes in fullness at the end of time. It is not talking about the church Jesus established here on earth in the meantime.

Here are some links I googled on the kingdom of God.

What Is ‘the Kingdom of God’?

Kingdom of God


The Church in God’s Plan

“THY KINGDOM COME”
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The kingdom of God is at hand. The millennial reign is now. Protestants err when they misread Daniel in particular to claim we’re in pre-millennial times.

Daniel B. Currie’s “Rapture” is an utter refutation of this error and highly recommended.
 
I agree with Teflon.

To say that all Christian churches are interchangeable and simply different vehicles of worship ignores why the Church was founded.

The Church holds up the truth of Scripture, meaning it cannot have error. Different interpretations amount to error. We can conclude from the Bible that Christ founded one infallible, holy and blameless, Church that was given authority when it comes to the truth. We can see by the succession of Bishops all the way back to Peter that this Church is the Catholic Church.
 
Kitty_Chan said:
. . .besides famililes cannot even agree on things, what makes us think that humanity as a whole is going to agree on a form of worship? But Who we worship, now thats something we can agree on. 🙂
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Or even that they can get it right. That is why God did not leave it to humanity to develop a form of worship. He gave us the form in the Eucharist and a Divinely inspired Church to maintain it.
 
the Kingdom of God is there -present ready for the taking- questioners were looking for material benefits.so saith my notes from oxford rsv:p
 
SCALCO said:
I agree with Teflon.

To say that all Christian churches are interchangeable and simply different vehicles of worship ignores why the Church was founded.

The Church holds up the truth of Scripture, meaning it cannot have error. Different interpretations amount to error. We can conclude from the Bible that Christ founded one infallible, holy and blameless, Church that was given authority when it comes to the truth. We can see by the succession of Bishops all the way back to Peter that this Church is the Catholic Church.
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Excellent points.

We can also see the dangers inherent in cherrypicking Scripture, which is so dense and fulsome that taking passages out of the context of the whole can be used to justify anything, as Pharisees and Protestants are wont to do.

We are as the Ethiopian—we need teaching and guidance to find the narrow gate.
 
If the Church is invisible, we have a big problem then.

"But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

Matthew 18:15-17.

Let’s take it step by step, shall we?
  1. Rebuke him privately. Check. We can do that.
  2. Take one or two more. Check. People can support the argument.
  3. Tell the Church. Uhhh… Which one? If the Church is invisible, does one just stand out in the open and talk to invisible air? If the Church is the multitude of believers, does one call a world conference of believers to resolve a dispute between me and my brother?
An invisible Church is illogical, given that those are Jesus Christ’s words.
 
PinoyCatholic said:
If the Church is invisible, we have a big problem then.

"But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

Matthew 18:15-17.

Let’s take it step by step, shall we?
  1. Rebuke him privately. Check. We can do that.
  2. Take one or two more. Check. People can support the argument.
  3. Tell the Church. Uhhh… Which one? If the Church is invisible, does one just stand out in the open and talk to invisible air? If the Church is the multitude of believers, does one call a world conference of believers to resolve a dispute between me and my brother?
An invisible Church is illogical, given that those are Jesus Christ’s words.
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Exactly.
 
If the Bible speaks of an invisible church, those Scriptures must also be invisible.
 
Kitty_Chan said:
When one attends a event, conference etc, there is always a unity of believers even if from various protestant churches.

I remember being at a Baptist retreat and the guest speaker was Lutheran, taught us pre written prayers, it was wonderful.

Maybe Ive been blessed not to attend a particular church and have gone to different ones, not looking for a home, but just joining my friends in worship and supporting each other in the Lord. Ive found God to be at them all.

Unity, one but not the same, thats what I think of when I think of the “Church” anyway. Its bigger than the buildings we go to, there are tons of people who will never get the chance to attend any church, but believe in Jesus. They are part of that church.

besides famililes cannot even agree on things, what makes us think that humanity as a whole is going to agree on a form of worship? But Who we worship, now thats something we can agree on. 🙂
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But you forget that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide that Church. Everyone that argues against that point, or argues and leaves that point out, discredits the ability of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church as was intended…and puts more faith in man to “do the right things”. And we know how “good” man is at things.

God knows it all too well also. So, he had to establish a center of authority…oh, yes, and have a direct rep from the God Head to guide it. What a novel (and brilliant) idea. Oh, and he can do that by the way. It’s only our limited minds and faith that try to prove him wrong.

God has always put authority, unit, and organization around his people, and has always guided that authority. Abraham, to Moses, etc. to Peter, and his successors. He didn’t change that template, he just allowed more people in.

We change, God doesn’t. And we confuse our changes a lot of times with “what we think is “OK” and acceptable with God”.

We’re so arrogant!
 
savedsinner said:
I think that verse is talking about the end times when the kingdom of God comes in fullness at the end of time. It is not talking about the church Jesus established here on earth in the meantime.

Here are some links I googled on the kingdom of God.

What Is ‘the Kingdom of God’?

Kingdom of God


The Church in God’s Plan

“THY KINGDOM COME”
Click to expand...
Thanks. I did some additional research, in the Rapture book by David Casey. I found scripture explained that supports this as well.
 
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