Luke 18:9-14 and OSAS

[JRKH]

I do not want to cause offense to any individual, but it occurred to me that in my experience, those who hold to OSAS can come off a bit like the pharisee in this passage. That holding this view can easily lead one to this kind of prayer:
`God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collecto
I’m sure that many see NOT to think this way…yet the principle of OSAS seems to lead this direction…

Or at least it does to me…

Any thoughts on this from the field?

Peace
James

 

[DavidFilmer]

But OSAS folk don’t really care if they’re sinners. They are going to heaven no matter whether they are all those things.

 

[JRKH]

But OSAS folk don’t really care if they’re sinners. They are going to heaven no matter whether they are all those things.

True. Which (I fear) leads to the kind of presumption we see in the passage…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

But OSAS folk don’t really care if they’re sinners. They are going to heaven no matter whether they are all those things.

I don’t know if I would go so far as to way they don’t care…But I do think that the idea can lead to the kind of presumption we see in the passage.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

In my experience, OSAS folks don’t act like the pharisees described in the first post. I have lots of Evangelical and Baptist friends.

Most are genuinely sincere Christians who love Jesus. They know that they are not perfect, their conscience bothers them when they realize that they have sinned and they know that grace and salvation are a gift.

JRHK, how many OSAS people do you actually know? My guess is that you don’t have very many OSAS folks as close friends based on the post. I don’t mean this as an offense.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

In my experience, OSAS folks don’t act like the pharisees described in the first post. I have lots of Evangelical and Baptist friends.

Most are genuinely sincere Christians who love Jesus. They know that they are not perfect, their conscience bothers them when they realize that they have sinned and they know that grace and salvation are a gift.

JRHK, how many OSAS people do you actually know? My guess is that you don’t have very many OSAS folks as close friends based on the post. I don’t mean this as an offense.

-Tim-

No offense taken.
You are quite correct Tim…I don’t know all that many so my “view” is quite limited.
That is part of the reason I wanted to get the (name removed by moderator)ut of others.

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

IMO, the OSAS position does have similarities to that of the Pharisee’s but instead of “Look at my works”, it becomes “Look at my faith”. This relates to Trent’s admonition “Against the vain confidence of Heretics” regarding faith/confidence alone in one’s forgiven and justified status along with another admonition, “That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided”, in this case regarding a conviction that one is surely numbered among the elect/saved, both from session 6.

 

[JRKH]

IMO, the OSAS position does have similarities to that of the Pharisee’s but instead of “Look at my works”, it becomes “Look at my faith”. This relates to Trent’s admonition “Against the vain confidence of Heretics” regarding faith/confidence alone in one’s forgiven and justified status along with another admonition, “That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided”, in this case regarding a conviction that one is surely numbered among the elect/saved, both from session 6.

I think your first sentence nails what I was feeling - - - Not a direct connection but a sort of parallel one.
Thanks.

Peace
James

 

[fbl9]

I do not want to cause offense to any individual, but it occurred to me that in my experience, those who hold to OSAS can come off a bit like the pharisee in this passage. That holding this view can easily lead one to this kind of prayer:
`God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collecto
I’m sure that many see NOT to think this way…yet the principle of OSAS seems to lead this direction…

Or at least it does to me…

Any thoughts on this from the field?

Peace
James

personally I think this attitude can show up in all christians not just OSASers.
OSAS and double predestination theology, in my limited knowledge, does not directly show such attitude but rather it seems like it does.

 

[dronald]

I do not want to cause offense to any individual, but it occurred to me that in my experience, those who hold to OSAS can come off a bit like the pharisee in this passage. That holding this view can easily lead one to this kind of prayer:
`God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collecto
I’m sure that many see NOT to think this way…yet the principle of OSAS seems to lead this direction…

Or at least it does to me…

Any thoughts on this from the field?

Peace
James

Isn’t this passage in particular speaking of works? “Thank you God that I don’t do those things like him.”

What does believing in OSAS have to do with a person thanking God that they don’t do the bad works of others?

 

[fhansen]

personally I think this attitude can show up in all christians not just OSASers.
OSAS and double predestination theology, in my limited knowledge, does not directly show such attitude but rather it seems like it does.

IMO, anytime we feel and express an over-assurance about our right-standing with God, it borders on priggishness, and it comes off that way, even if more subtly than in the case of the Pharisees.

 

[JRKH]

Isn’t this passage in particular speaking of works? “Thank you God that I don’t do those things like him.”

I have never read it as such. I have always seen that passage as relating more to pride.
The Pharisee would have had faith - He believed in God and obeyed the Law (remember this is before the resurrection) so by Mosaic standards he should have been justified under the existing covenant.
However - what he did not have was humility. He assumed he was “saved” by his belief and his obedience so he did not acknowledge his sinfulness nor ask for mercy.

What does believing in OSAS have to do with a person thanking God that they don’t do the bad works of others?

Good question.
I think my concern is that the OSAS believer is vulnerable to the same sort of pride as the pharisee was displaying. The assumption that all sin, even future sin, is already forgiven sounds to me very much like the one pharisee who believes he is saved by his obedience to the letter of the law…

Note here that I am drawing a very general parallel, not a direct one…

 

[JRKH]

I want to thank everyone for the very charitable replies. I know this could be a “hot button” topic and I am glad that no one has (so far) taken offense.
The replies have been most helpful to me.

Peace
James

 

[Nelka]

I poke to a Protestant at work if he believed that murdering someone on the way home and then dying of a heart attack before he had a chance to repent would get him to Heaven and he said he would as he is saved.

I don’t understand how they can believe that breaking this commandment without repentance could take them straight to Heaven.

I don’t understand how they get to this point.

I heard a Protestant minister say today that you don’t have to be good or behave or anything as your place in Heaven is there for you and you cannot lose it no matter how bad you are.

 

[dronald]

I have never read it as such. I have always seen that passage as relating more to pride.
The Pharisee would have had faith - He believed in God and obeyed the Law (remember this is before the resurrection) so by Mosaic standards he should have been justified under the existing covenant.
However - what he did not have was humility. He assumed he was “saved” by his belief and his obedience so he did not acknowledge his sinfulness nor ask for mercy.

Good question.
I think my concern is that the OSAS believer is vulnerable to the same sort of pride as the pharisee was displaying. The assumption that all sin, even future sin, is already forgiven sounds to me very much like the one pharisee who believes he is saved by his obedience to the letter of the law…

Note here that I am drawing a very general parallel, not a direct one…

It reads a few ways, but I don’t believe any way you’re reading it should create the conclusion that you have come to.

OSAS people (I’m not one, as I believe it’s logical that one can stop believing) usually do not take pride that they’re ‘better’ due to their coming Salvation. The group that takes part in OSAS are usually the Evangelical crowd and normally they believe that they are eternally deprived and can do nothing on their own. Very rarely does it result in pride in my experience with said people.

Most people in this group see themselves as “sinners in need of a saviour” and believe they can never actually be good enough or work hard enough to get to Heaven on their own.

I just don’t know anyone who has the attitude of that Pharisee. In fact, I do see it in Muslims who believe they can work to attain Salvation and a lack of works can lead to a prolonged damnation.

I don’t personally know many Catholics enough to comment on their pride or lack thereof due to their theology. I can only assume they’re as good and as bad as everyone else.

 

[dronald]

I poke to a Protestant at work if he believed that murdering someone on the way home and then dying of a heart attack before he had a chance to repent would get him to Heaven and he said he would as he is saved.

I don’t understand how they can believe that breaking this commandment without repentance could take them straight to Heaven.

I don’t understand how they get to this point.

I heard a Protestant minister say today that you don’t have to be good or behave or anything as your place in Heaven is there for you and you cannot lose it no matter how bad you are.

Hard to say, since you can’t judge the heart.

Regardless, many OSAS people would simply say that said murderer was “never saved to begin with.” Therefore the results would be the same for a Catholic or Protestant in that the person may be damned; but it should be both of our positions that we can’t say for sure.

 

[TimothyH]

It reads a few ways, but I don’t believe any way you’re reading it should create the conclusion that you have come to.

OSAS people (I’m not one, as I believe it’s logical that one can stop believing) usually do not take pride that they’re ‘better’ due to their coming Salvation. The group that takes part in OSAS are usually the Evangelical crowd and normally they believe that they are eternally deprived and can do nothing on their own. Very rarely does it result in pride in my experience with said people.

Most people in this group see themselves as “sinners in need of a saviour” and believe they can never actually be good enough or work hard enough to get to Heaven on their own.

I just don’t know anyone who has the attitude of that Pharisee. In fact, I do see it in Muslims who believe they can work to attain Salvation and a lack of works can lead to a prolonged damnation.

I don’t personally know many Catholics enough to comment on their pride or lack thereof due to their theology. I can only assume they’re as good and as bad as everyone else.

This is exactly my experience with my Evangelical and Baptist OSAS friends.

Many of my non-Catholic friends think that Catholics can be pharisaical and that observation is not without merit. Thank God I’m Catholic and not Protestant!

Many Catholics can be triumphalists because of their membership in the Church. Many Catholics are overly confident that the sacraments are going to save them and mechanistic in the belief that all they have to do is go to confession and be in a state of grace when they die and they will automatically go to heaven. They see us as presumptuous.

We really have to look for the log in our own eye before we start looking for the splinter in others.

-Tim-

 

[fhansen]

This is exactly my experience with my Evangelical and Baptist OSAS friends.

Many of my non-Catholic friends think that Catholics can be pharisaical and that observation is not without merit. Thank God I’m Catholic and not Protestant!

Many Catholics can be triumphalists because of their membership in the Church. Many Catholics are overly confident that the sacraments are going to save them and mechanistic in the belief that all they have to do is go to confession and be in a state of grace when they die and they will automatically go to heaven. They see us as presumptuous.

We really have to look for the log in our own eye before we start looking for the splinter in others.

-Tim-

Catholic teaching simply doesn’t allow for certainty regarding ones salvation-it’s quite foreign, in fact, to our whole outlook on the gospel.

 

[JRKH]

It reads a few ways, but I don’t believe any way you’re reading it should create the conclusion that you have come to.

Fair enough… I suppose that my “conclusion” is not really all that directly tied to the actual passage.

OSAS people (I’m not one, as I believe it’s logical that one can stop believing) usually do not take pride that they’re ‘better’ due to their coming Salvation. The group that takes part in OSAS are usually the Evangelical crowd and normally they believe that they are eternally deprived and can do nothing on their own. Very rarely does it result in pride in my experience with said people.

Well - this has not been my experience - though admittedly rather limited.

Most people in this group see themselves as “sinners in need of a saviour” and believe they can never actually be good enough or work hard enough to get to Heaven on their own.

What you describe here is a a “faith alone” view which would include both OSAS and non-OSAS believers.
I just see in the OSAS position a certain presumption -

I don’t personally know many Catholics enough to comment on their pride or lack thereof due to their theology. I can only assume they’re as good and as bad as everyone else.

Oh - we have our share of the “Pharisaical” types…

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

Catholic teaching simply doesn’t allow for certainty regarding ones salvation-it’s quite foreign, in fact, to our whole outlook on the gospel.

Someone should tell Catholics here at CAF.

I have read many threads where people state emphatically that all you have to do is go to confession and die in a state of grace and you will go to heaven. "Nothing else matters’ is the general thought.

My point is that I don’t think it generally true that OSAS leads to spiritual pride, they often think the same of us, and we certainly have our own issues with triumphalism.

-Tim-