Luke 18: Persistent Widow, a "good" thing?

[AlanFromWichita]

Luke 18:1-8:

Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, “There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’ For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’”

The Lord said, "Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says.

Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

I’ve often been bothered by the conclusions that many draw from this passage. I’ve never heard it described any other way than a passage that tells us we should be persistent in our prayers.

To me, that seems to ignore the punch line, which I consider placed so as to be the “moral” of the story. That punch line, in this edition, starts with a big “but.” To me, it seems like God is saying, “if you nag me enough, you’ll get what you want but you haven’t displayed any faith.”

In the Douay-Rheims version, it’s:
Luke 18:8b:

But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

It reminds me of the apostles crying out “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” and Jesus saying, “O ye of little faith…” Here we have the widow crying out, and God says something like that IMO.

How am I wrong? I’m probably “out of line” on this, but how? If I am wrong, then what is the meaning of the punch line of this story?

Alan

 

[seagal]

I have to admit your spin on it made me think. When I’ve read that parable, the line about will God find faith seemed to point to the judge rather than the widow. But after re-reading I have a different take on it. I’ve heard it said that faith and worry can’t co-exist. In other words, if you have faith there is no need to worry; if you worry it means your faith has deserted you. So if we are like the widow, praying constantly and worrying that God won’t give us what we need, then where is our faith? Something to think more about.

 

[Sirach2]

This morning, Joyce Meyer had an excellent teaching on “persistent faith.” She is all over the airwaves at many times during the day, so I highly recommend listening to the message if you can. She spoke about the persistence of Elijah, who after three years of drought resulting in famine over the land, he received word that God would send rain.

Now it’s pretty hard to believe that after that length of drought, one could expect rain, yes? Even though he was a prophet of God, and had God’s assurance of rain, he had to send his servant seven times to look for a cloud, and when he reported that there was a very small one, it still took a huge stretch of faith to assume that this tiny thing could be productive of rain.

My feeling is that when we have God’s word and promise, it is not so much our reliance on OUR PRAYER, that brings the result, but FAITH in the promise of God, despite the evidence to the contrary. I have been thinking heavily about the message Joyce gave us today. Very much anointed by the Spirit, and similar to your examples, Alan.

Kings 3:17:1 Now Elijah the Tishbite said to Ahab, As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word
7 Some time later the brook dried up because there had been no rain in the land. 8 Then the word of the LORD came to him: 9 “Go at once to Zarephath of Sidon and stay there. I have commanded a widow in that place to supply you with food.”
13: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the LORD gives rain on the land.’ "

[In spite of severe famine, the Lord provided food until the famine was over, which is a separate example of profound faith.]

18:1 1 After a long time, in the third year, the word of the LORD came to Elijah: “Go and present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the land.” 2 So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab.
Now the famine was severe in Samaria.
41 And Elijah said to Ahab, “Go, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy rain.” 42 So Ahab went off to eat and drink, but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees.
43 “Go and look toward the sea,” he told his servant. And he went up and looked.
“There is nothing there,” he said.

Seven times Elijah said, "Go back."
44 The seventh time the servant reported, “A cloud as small as a man’s hand is rising from the sea.”
So Elijah said, "Go and tell Ahab, ‘Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.’ "
45 Meanwhile, the sky grew black with clouds, the wind rose, a heavy rain came on and Ahab rode off to Jezreel.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you for your replies. It is something that has bothered me for a long time.

My wife and I often watch Joyce Meyer on the web. The last couple days I haven’t seen her, so I’ll watch that video to see what she says. I do believe I remember her talking about the “standard” interpretation of the persistent widow, but with her I’m usually more interested in the point she is making rather than dissecting her interpretation of scripture.

I have a doctor appointment to go to; afterwards I’ll come back, get caught up on Joyce, and see if I can make a meaningful reply.

Alan

 

[Sirach2]

joycemeyer.org/ourministries/broadcast/

Alan, your link was not correct. This will take you there.

 

[Thoma25]

I tend to interpret it in light of Christ’s other teaching: that those who are evil know how to give their children good things of the earth when they ask, how much more would God our Heavenly Father give to his children the goods things of heaven. In the passage you mentioned, a widow constantly implores an unjust judge for a favorable ruling. He didn’t regard God, the widow, or justice; but because she was persistent and didn’t tire in her petitions, he gave her what she wanted. If an unjust judge could answer the petitions of a widow in distress, how much more would God, the Just Judge, answer our petitions in time of need? If the unjust give answer to your numerous prayers, then certainly God would not ignore them.

This depends on our asking properly. In the Epistle of James, it is taught that if we ask God for things to be spent on our passions:

“You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences.” (James 4:3, Douay Rheims).

What we are to ask God to give us is his grace, virtues, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Earthly things are only means toward this heavenly end, and are not to be sought for their own merit. We may implore God wholeheartedly for something in life that we truly and sincerely think is for our good, and we may not receive it, because in reality it would have been injurious to us, and an occasion to sin.

So, like the widow who petitions the unjust judge for the things of this world, we are to constantly petition God for the things of heaven; and even as an earthly judge yields to constant petition, God will hear us and grant us what we truly need.

 

[Sirach2]

I listened again to the website broadcast, and considered her other examples. We find in Gen. 11:31, that God inspired Abram’s father to go to the land of Canaan, but he got part way to Haran, and settled there, never arriving at the destination God had intended for him. God then had to find another to take his place, and spoke to Terah’s son instead.

31And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. 32And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Toward the end of the broadcast, Joyce gave another very good example of the persistence of the eaglet and the importance of continual “pecking” to develop his tenacity as an eagle.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So far I’ve watched part of the webcast, but of course she’s “on” as usual. The example she gave that I’ve heard so far, are being persistent against worldly struggles, and about seeing the worldly manifestations of something we believe we have already received through our faith.

So it sounds like she’s saying that if you have faith, you must also exercise perseverance at seeing it through. Maybe it’s a bit like faith and works – we must persevere in our works to make our faith worthwhile.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So if we are like the widow, praying constantly and worrying that God won’t give us what we need, then where is our faith? Something to think more about.

That’s a very concise description of what I was wondering.

One reason I can see for praying persistently, is if your faith continues to increase. IOW, maybe I like to repeat the prayer when I have stronger faith. That isn’t what it sounds like in this story, though.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

My feeling is that when we have God’s word and promise, it is not so much our reliance on OUR PRAYER, that brings the result, but FAITH in the promise of God, despite the evidence to the contrary. I have been thinking heavily about the message Joyce gave us today. Very much anointed by the Spirit, and similar to your examples, Alan.

Thank you for your supportive comments! :tiphat:

Yes, I think it is faith in the promise, that gives us the assurance. If we receive signs of rain through our worldly senses or our trusted weather equipment, then it is not longer faith, but time to give thanks all over. In fact, we could be thankful before we see it because we know of the promise.

Does that make any sense?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I tend to interpret it in light of Christ’s other teaching: that those who are evil know how to give their children good things of the earth when they ask, how much more would God our Heavenly Father give to his children the goods things of heaven. In the passage you mentioned, a widow constantly implores an unjust judge for a favorable ruling. He didn’t regard God, the widow, or justice; but because she was persistent and didn’t tire in her petitions, he gave her what she wanted. If an unjust judge could answer the petitions of a widow in distress, how much more would God, the Just Judge, answer our petitions in time of need? If the unjust give answer to your numerous prayers, then certainly God would not ignore them.

I like your interpretation!

That ties it in with other parts of the Bible, too.

What we are to ask God to give us is his grace, virtues, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Earthly things are only means toward this heavenly end, and are not to be sought for their own merit. We may implore God wholeheartedly for something in life that we truly and sincerely think is for our good, and we may not receive it, because in reality it would have been injurious to us, and an occasion to sin.

So, like the widow who petitions the unjust judge for the things of this world, we are to constantly petition God for the things of heaven; and even as an earthly judge yields to constant petition, God will hear us and grant us what we truly need.

I like what you say about imploring God wholeheartedly, but what does it mean when we use many words, especially many repeated words?

I’m not talking about the Rosary, because that’s a whole different category. I’m talking about “working” the Lord the way the kids work us unjust parents? Perhaps the act of repeating the prayer itself is instrumental in building our own faith even as we pray?

Alan

 

[PeterK]

Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night?

What are the rights of his chosen ones?

Just curious.

PeterK

 

[Sirach2]

Alan:

Yes, I think it is faith in the promise, that gives us the assurance. If we receive signs of rain through our worldly senses or our trusted weather equipment, then it is not longer faith, but time to give thanks all over. In fact, we could be thankful before we see it because we know of the promise.

Does that make any sense?

I was reading the life of Blessed (soon to be “saint”) André Bessette the other day, and noticed that his usual practice was to give thanks in advance for all the petitions he prayed. The author remarked about this singular point of his piety. But what if we have no promise? There was nothing mentioned about this saint that he had foreknowledge his prayers would effect healing. But he did often utter a word of knowledge that usually came true, to the surprise of the beneficiaries of his prayers.

So yes, this makes perfect sense, Alan.

 

[Thoma25]

I like your interpretation!

That ties it in with other parts of the Bible, too.

I like what you say about imploring God wholeheartedly, but what does it mean when we use many words, especially many repeated words?

I’m not talking about the Rosary, because that’s a whole different category. I’m talking about “working” the Lord the way the kids work us unjust parents? Perhaps the act of repeating the prayer itself is instrumental in building our own faith even as we pray?

Alan

Above all, prayer is a conversation with God. It is a conversation that he does not need to have with us. He isn’t benefited in the least by our turning to him. On the other hand, we are immensely benefited from frequent prayer because we lift up our hearts to God, and he is able to instill within us the graces we need to carry out his will.

Asking God for a specific grace is petition. God does not need us to tell him our needs; he knows them better than we do. But he wants us to tell him, and we need to tell him, because through petition we begin to rely on God rather than on others or even ourselves. He is the source of all good, and can turn any evil into great blessings, which is why it’s so important to petition him for our necessities. Without his will, we could receive nothing.

Another benefit in frequently talking to God about our wants/desires is that he can guide us in prayer to either remain constant, if what we’re asking for is in accordance with his will; or he can begin to illumine our minds and hearts, showing us the futility of what we’re asking. By meditating on the object of our desires with God, we can come to understand it in a different light, and realize the consequences of these decisions. Then we may be set with a firm resolution; or we may realize the error of our ways, and thank God that our prayers have been “unanswered.”

However, when we’re asking God for an increase in virtue or a specific virtue, we may rest assured that our prayers are always answered because it is God’s will that we grow in virtue. Asking him often would ensure that we have these virtues set firmly in mind; that we desire to grow in them; and that we will take every opportunity to cooperate with God’s grace to receive them. Since we can never reach perfection in this life, this is a prayer that we will have to make frequently until death.

Frequent prayer (and petition) goes hand-in-hand with frequent Confession and Communion, disposing us to receive the Sacramental graces and putting these graces to work within us.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear Thoma25,

I like the picture you’ve painted of prayer. God does not need our prayer, either for His own sake or for the sake of knowing what we need.

We need prayer, however, to help guide our hearts.

You talk about “frequent” prayer, and I’m all about frequent prayer – even continual prayer.

That said, what about petitioning God for a request, and then repeating it over and over. Does this really build our faith, or does it demonstrate frustration, impatience, or lack of faith? I can almost see it going both ways here.

For myself, I usually do not ask God for the same thing a second time unless I believe my faith has increased since the previous time I asked – or that I am more disposed to make the prayer. Simply making the prayer an extra time, and then again and again, IMO, indicates that we must not believe the prayers “worked” the first umpteen times. Maybe it’s partly my musical background; don’t play the same passage exactly alike, twice. Each time is slightly unique, and has its own flavor.

What we don’t see from this Bible story, is whether the persistent widow would have had to nag an actual just judge. The passage still confuses me, though, because it implies God is motivated to act by such repeated requests on our part – which makes me wonder what Jesus then meant about “vain repetition” in Matt 6:7-8.

But if prayer is for our own benefit – which is what I think you’re saying and if so I agree with it – then maybe it isn’t about repeated petition prayers to God. Maybe the judge represents something about ourselves internally? Just tossing about some food for thought.

Alan

 

[seagal]

AlanFromWichita;6831964:

I’m reminded of St. Monica and her unceasing prayers for her son…who eventually became St. Augustine. She prayed for years when he was in his debauchery. I pray constantly too for my children to return to their faith.

I think it has more to do with our attitude when we go to prayer. If we’re feeling frustrated or impatient that certainly demonstrates a lack of faith. Sometimes for me prayer is a reminder to myself that I’ve given whatever my concern is to God and trust Him to look after it in His own time in His own way.

 

[LilyM]

The last post made me think. I too would conclude that it’s all about the MANNER of the persistent prayer, and the ATTITUDE the persistent pray-er has … an attitude of taking one’s problems to Him and trusting that He will bring about the best solution for them according to His will, rather than simply demanding a specific result according to one’s own ideas or desires, and then getting impatient that things don’t happen your way.

After all, didn’t the Apostles pray for nine days solid after Christ ascended, for the gift of the Holy Spirit? And God rewarded their prayer in spades, did He not?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Those are some good points!

If I am meditative when I pray, that’s a whole lot different than being anxious. That’s probably more important than the originality of the prayer.