Luke 2:4-7 (Mary had other children?)

[Faithful_One]

Salmon:

Ezekiel 44: 1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

What was the gate by which God physically entered into the world in the New Testament?

That gate was never to be entered into by a man.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Salmon;
First let me say I admire you for having the forsight and willingness to investigate references to ‘types’ and ‘shadows’ in the Old Testament which have their fulfillment in the New Testament; and especially since your are the only one on this thread who has attempted to put forth a scri****pture that you believe refers to Mary’s perpetual virginity.

However, you have made a fallacius assumption in referring to the ‘gate to the sanctuary’ (Eze 44) as being a ‘type’ or ‘shadow’ of “the gate of Christ’s entrance into the world” as you state.

To help you see this clearly, let me ask you a question. What is the sancturay in O.T.?? What was it’s purpose?
Clearly, it (the gate) is the place where the high priests entered into the sanctuary to offer sacrifices on behalf of the people in preparation for atonement for their sins, IT IS THE PLACE THAT LEADS TO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, not to the WORLD, as your have erroneously alluded. The sanctuary and the gate thereof never has been a reference to the ‘world’, but to God’s presence.
Apostle Paul"s writing in Hebrews, in attempting to present the exact ‘forshadowing’ from the O.T. that you are referring to, says:

“Verily, the first covenent had also ordinances of divine service, and a wordly sanctuary; for there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, which is called the sanctuary”. (Heb.9)

Then he goes on to explain how the priest went into the first and second tabernacle (into God’s presence) to offer sacifice for sin.
(Heb.9:.6-8). Going into the tabernacle represents going into God’s presence and also something to come.
Paul says what it represents:
“The Holy Ghost thus signifying that the way into the holiest of all was not yet manifest…” What did it represent? It represented the way into the holiest of all, that is, **into God’s presence in heaven. **
This is eveidenced by Paul’s next statements (vs.11)
“But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands,…he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us”.

This is a reference to Christ, our high priest, offering ‘once and for all’ the eternal sacrifice in the sanctuary of heaven before God. The meaning is clear: the reason the ‘gate’ to the sanctuary was shut was because there was no longer any need for priests after Christ to go to God to ‘continually offer sacrifice’.

According to Apostle Paul the very type & shadow you brought up (Eze44), refers not to Christ entering the world, but rather to his entering into the presence of God in the heavenly sanctuary to offer his blood for the sins of the world!

Please read completely Hebews 9-10 for a complete journey into this wonderful revelation of Christ from O.T.sanctuary to N.T. fulfilment.
FaithfulOne

 

[Faithful_One]

Windmill:

I think we are assuming a narrow use of the word “until”. It does not necessariily mean that the opposite occurred after the “until” was fulfilled.

It is certain we should not assume Mathew forbids the opposite from having occurred, which most posters here seem to have tried to do.

Also, consider the Lucan passage where it says, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the child to be born will be called holy,] the Son of God.”

This word “overshadow” has marital connotations… Would Joseph cheat on the Holy Spirit?

Ha, ha; that’s the most hilarious thing I’ve ever heard, Rich.
Maybe you should tell Mathew to re-write his scripture to say:

“And Joseph sinned not against the Holy Spirit until after she brought forth her firstborn son…”

Obviously Mathew doesn’t agree with your assesmment that Joseph would be sinning against the H.S., since he clearly, in the least, gave license for Joseph to consumate sexual relations (after Christ’s birth) without impuning him. Gads, Rich, it was the angel of God who told him, "Don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife"! Do you think God would “cheat’” Joseph ?

Let me put it another way, in case you still think God is offended by those who have sexual relationns within marriage:
Doesn’t the scripture say we are ‘united’ to Christ and we are the chaste virgin ‘bride’ of Christ?
Well, then I suggest you repent of having sex with your wife…you are just **cheating on Christ.**** **

NOW you see why I can’t accept your logic. However, thanks for the O.T. scripture
Faithful One

 

[Faithful_One]

Vincent:

Keep in mind that at no point have I asserted that Mary is a perpetual virgin. In fact, I’m not trying to convince you that she is.

You sure could have fooled me.

Faithful One

 

[mtr01]

Windmill:

I think we are assuming a narrow use of the word “until”. It does not necessariily mean that the opposite occurred after the “until” was fulfilled.

A couple of examples…

In 2 Samuel 6:23, we read that Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child “until” the day of her death. (Rest assured that she didn’t have any children after that day, either.)

Hebrews 1:13 and 1 Timothy 4:13 are similar examples.

Rich

Here’s a more modern example: A teacher has to leave her classroom for a moment so she tells her class, “Everyone behave until I get back!” Now, because she said “until” are we to assume that she wants to children to cease behaving once she returns?

No, the fact is, the word “until” has no implications regarding what happens once the specified action is completed. Therefore it is a fallacy to assume Joseph “knew” Mary once Jesus was born based only on the use of “until”.

 

[Vincent]

Faithful One:

You sure could have fooled me.

Well, if you don’t believe me reread my posts.

All I’m doing is questioning your use of Matt.1:24-25 to demonstrate your assertion that Mary and Joseph clearly had sexual relations after Jesus’s birth.

And I’m still waiting for your proof that “until”—at least in that passage—must mean a change of condition. And just to be clear, I don’t argue that “until” cannot mean a change in condition.

But if you think that “until” in Matthew 1:24-25 must mean a change in condition, then you must prove it.

 

[st_felicity]

Faithful One:

Salmon;

However, you have made a fallacius assumption in referring to the ‘gate to the sanctuary’ (Eze 44) as being a ‘type’ or ‘shadow’ of “the gate of Christ’s entrance into the world” as you state.
FaithfulOne

No, your assumption is the wrong one. Mary womb is the "holy of holies, where the Word of God resides. In Ezekiel 44, he says he was brought to the outer gate of the sanctuary and that must remain closed–no one may enter by it “since the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it.” The gate is not Christ’s exit from His mother’s womb so much as it is the domain of God and no man should defile it.
Faithful One:

To help you see this clearly, let me ask you a question. What is the sancturay in O.T.?? What was it’s purpose?
Clearly, it (the gate) is the place where the high priests entered into the sanctuary to offer sacrifices on behalf of the people in preparation for atonement for their sins,
FaithfulOne

NO–read the passage again. God entered by that gate–therefore “it shall remain closed.” The Gate is Mary’s Virginity.

 

[st_felicity]

Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. Moses’s ark carried the 10 comamndments, manna, and the flowering staff of Aaron. Those are types for Jesus: the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the Resurrection, respectively. Jesus was within Mary’s womb–the Ark of the Covenant.

The ark was housed in the holy of holies. Mary was a perpetual virgin–only God could enter that sacred place.

 

[Windmill]

As far as the comment about the closed gate negating a sacrificial priesthood, I would venture to say this:

Christ’s unique high priesthood is what is being spoken of here. It was the high priest, and the high priest alone, that could enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. Christ is the new high priest for all christians, and when he entered the gate into THE holy of holies (heaven) he abrogated the necessity of a High Priesthood since that type had now been fulfilled.

However, just as in the OT where you had ministerial priests separate from the Aaronic High Priesthood, so, too, in the NT do you have ministerial priests that, in no way, diminish the significance of Christ’s High Priesthood.

Rich

 

[Windmill]

I think this article may help shed some light on things.

newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

Helvidius was an early heretic that denied the perpetual virignity of Mary. St James, the greatest Greek scholar ever, the guy who translated the entire Scripture from its original Greek into Latin, defended the teaching handed down from the Apostles that Mary remained a Virgin until her death.

 

[st_felicity]

In Exodos 13 "The Lord spoke to Moses and said “cosecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among the Israelites…for it belongs to me.”

This says consecrate the first-born–meaning every child born first in a family, not only those that were born before a sibling and only children are exempt.

Again, refers to Mary’s “first-born” son.

The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures–and I am in awe.

 

[Windmill]

Also Felicity,

The original Ark of the Covenant could not be touched by sinful man, as we see in the laws that were laid down by God concerning its handling. Uzzah, one of the Coahithites, learned this lesson all too well. He touched the Ark merely to steady it as it was being taken up to Jerusalem, and God struck him dead.

Same as with Mary, she could not be touched by sinful man.

 

[Windmill]

Parrallels between Mary and the OT Ark:

This Post comes from Pat Madrid’s tape “Do Whatever He Tells You”

2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”

Lk 1:41-43 … And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizabeth’s words are identical to David’s upon seeing the Ark of the Covenant.

2 Sam 6:12-14 And it was told King David, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God.” So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing; 13 and when those who bore the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. 14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

Lk 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…

John the Baptist danced for joy in Elizabeth’s womb, just as David danced before the ark.

Ex 40:34-35 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Lk 1:35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

The verb “overshadow” used in Luke is the same verb used in Exodus to describe how the Lord “filled” the tabernacle. The ark contained the Ten Commandments (the Word), the rod of Aaron (power), and manna (food). Mary carries the Word of God, the Power of God, and the True Bread which is come down from heaven. She is the Ark of the New Covenant. That is why Jeremiah could prophesy:

Jer 3:15-19 "'And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16 And when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the Lord, they shall no more say, “The ark of the covenant of the Lord.” It shall not come to mind, or be remembered, or missed; it shall not be made again. 17 At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the Lord, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the Lord in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart. 18 In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage.

That time is now. The original ark will not be remade, nor missed. God has given us new shepherds after His own heart, the houses of Judah and Israel are joined. Through Mary’s “Yes,” the promise has been fulfilled.

The First Ark of the Covenant.

It held the Word of GOD written on stone tablets. It held the symbol of the High Priest, the Rod of Aaron It held the Manna, the Bread come down from Heaven.

Hebrews 9:4

It was made of incorruptible wood. “And thou shalt make the ark of testimony of incorruptible wood…”

Exodus 25:10,

The New Ark of the Covenant…

She carried the Word of GOD Incarnate. She carried the High Priest of GOD. She carried the Bread come down from Heaven.

Luke 2:7

She was assumed, incorruptible into Heaven.

“And the temple of GOD in Heaven was opened, and there was seen the “Ark of His Covenant” in His temple, and there came flashes of lightning, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in Heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”

Rev 11:19-12:1

The Old Testament Ark of the Covenant was a “Type” of the New Testament reality, the “Antitype” reality being the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Ark as seen in Heaven is not the Old Testament wooden box. It is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[st_felicity]

And David danced and leaped before the ark–As St. John danced and leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Our Blessed Mother filled with the life of God.

 

[st_felicity]

Ah-Ha! You beat me to it!!!:clapping:

 

[Windmill]

Why would all the great reformers (Clavin, Luther, Zwingli, Knox) ALL agree that Mary was perpetual virgin when that would have been one more thing to nail the Catholics on?

The quote about the gate being shut applied to Mary’s womb - guess who latched onto that: Zwingli.

Rich

 

[Scott_Waddell]

The Heõs Hou argument (the greek word corresponding to “until”) has been dealt with extensively here: Heos Hou Central

Scott

 

[Windmill]

Scott,

It appears that the proponents of that theory have revoked their positions (so says the website you note).

Rich

 

[Faithful_One]

No, your assumption is the wrong one.

I didn’t make an assumption, I merely showed Salmon from Hebrews what Apostle Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, showed exactly what the Holiest of Holies is. It is in heaven according to him, and Christ is the High Priest who entered in.

Salmon apparently understood what I was saying ; obviously you missed the whole point that he was saying AS WELL AS MY RESPONSE.
He was talking about the closing of the gate being a type of something yet to happen in the New Testament. Do unerstand what that means?
That typology was explained by Apostle Paul, and he gives the exact meaning of the Sanctuary in Hebrews. you ought to read it before you start flashing off at others.

** Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say Mary’s womb is to be considered the Holy of Holies.**
**If you have a scripture stating that then please show it; otherwise y****our arguement is a complete assumption. **

You may have been taught “Mary’s womb is the Holiest of holies” but that is nowhere stated in scripture; in fact it is clearly CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE.
You’ve propbably never read Hebrews. Please Read Hebrews, it will surely clear up your misconception - provided you can understand it. Only then will you be able to talk intelligently on the issue.

Remember we are referring in this thread to what is contained in Scripture, your personal opinion may differ greatly**.**

I’m sorry if you cannot understand Hebrews, but I for one must go by what Paul said on the subject , not your personal opinions .

FaithfulOne

 

[st_felicity]

Faithful One:
** provided you can understand it.**

** your personal opinion may differ greatly****.**

I’m sorry if you cannot understand Hebrews, not your personal opinions .

FaithfulOne
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_12.gif MEOW!!! What’s got your hair up? I’ll respond to your Hebrews (if I’m able…)

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Windmill:

Scott,

It appears that the proponents of that theory have revoked their positions (so says the website you note).

Rich

Who revoked what? I wasn’t very clear. This site is a refutation of a scholar who claimed that Heos Hou always indicated a reversal of action. (That is, basically that the passage in question does not prove that Mary had marital relations after the birth of Jesus.)

Scott