Luke XXIII:XLIII and Purgatory

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Luke 23:43
et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso
Vulgata​
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Douay-Rheims​

My protestant friend used this quote to try to disprove Purgatory, saying this was his biggest problem with it.
He said that if Purgatory was true then this man wouldn’t be in Paradise “this day” it would be several days in the future.

Scripture Catholic says there was no punctuation in the original language so it said “I say to you this day” rather than “I say to you, this day…”; but I’d rather not have to refer to other translations.

So, how is this verse to be interpreted? How can I prove that Purgatory does exist despite this?
 
Luke 23:43

Vulgata

Douay-Rheims

My protestant friend used this quote to try to disprove Purgatory, saying this was his biggest problem with it.
He said that if Purgatory was true then this man wouldn’t be in Paradise “this day” it would be several days in the future.

Scripture Catholic says there was no punctuation in the original language so it said “I say to you this day” rather than “I say to you, this day…”; but I’d rather not have to refer to other translations.

So, how is this verse to be interpreted? How can I prove that Purgatory does exist despite this?
One of the concepts of Purgatory is that it is a purification of anything within us that is impure prior to our entrance into heaven.

Can someone have suffered in this life in a manner that accomplishes the same thing?

If so, could the Good Thief’s suffering on the cross have provided the purification that purgatory would have accomplished otherwise?
 
Luke 23:43

Vulgata

Douay-Rheims​

My protestant friend used this quote to try to disprove Purgatory, saying this was his biggest problem with it.
He said that if Purgatory was true then this man wouldn’t be in Paradise “this day” it would be several days in the future.

Scripture Catholic says there was no punctuation in the original language so it said “I say to you this day” rather than “I say to you, this day…”; but I’d rather not have to refer to other translations.

So, how is this verse to be interpreted? How can I prove that Purgatory does exist despite this?
Jesus is God, therefore He has the power to forgive any sin and bring anyone into heaven with Him. I would say that Jesus forgave the repentant man all of his sins, letting him skip Purgatory and go straight to heaven. That’s what I would say but I would get some opinions from more learned Catholics first.

Hope this helps!

Pax,
Zach

P.S. Show your friend verses like 2 Maccabees 12:46, I know Protestants reject the deutero-canon, but they should know it’s there. Also, show them 1 Corinthians 3:15:

“If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

He will suffer loss but be saved through fire? He’s saved, so he’s going to go to heaven, but he’ll have to go through fire. There will be know suffering through fire in heaven, so he must obviously go somewhere before he get’s to heaven, but it can’t be hell because no one gets out of there. So, it has to be Purgatory. I hope that helps, my explanation might be bad…
 
One of the concepts of Purgatory is that it is a purification of anything within us that is impure prior to our entrance into heaven.

Can someone have suffered in this life in a manner that accomplishes the same thing?

If so, could the Good Thief’s suffering on the cross have provided the purification that purgatory would have accomplished otherwise?
Aha, so perhaps the Good Thief completed his purgation by his suffering on the cross, a bit like corporal mortification.
 
Jesus is God, therefore He has the power to forgive any sin and bring anyone into heaven with Him. I would say that Jesus forgave the repentant man all of his sins, letting him skip Purgatory and go straight to heaven. That’s what I would say but I would get some opinions from more learned Catholics first.

Hope this helps!

Pax,
Zach
Like Jesus giving his an indulgence, I thought of that but I don’t think it will really convince a protestant, who also of course doesn’t accept indulgences.
P.S. Show your friend verses like 2 Maccabees 12:46, I know Protestants reject the deutero-canon, but they should know it’s there. Also, show them 1 Corinthians 3:15:

“If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

He will suffer loss but be saved through fire? He’s saved, so he’s going to go to heaven, but he’ll have to go through fire. There will be know suffering through fire in heaven, so he must obviously go somewhere before he get’s to heaven, but it can’t be hell because no one gets out of there. So, it has to be Purgatory. I hope that helps, my explanation might be bad…
Yes, once you look it’s actually really biblical, a lot more so than the Holy Trinity.
Zachaias XIII:IX is pretty much a complete discription of Purgatory.

“And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.” (Zacharias XIII:IX)

👍
 
Aha, so perhaps the Good Thief completed his purgation by his suffering on the cross, a bit like corporal mortification.
One other thought…we do not know how long anyone spends in purgatory. Time does not exist after death.

Therefore, when Jesus says, “This day”, he could mean a thousand years as we reckon time or literally just a few hours later according to our clock.
 
One other thought…we do not know how long anyone spends in purgatory. Time does not exist after death.

Therefore, when Jesus says, “This day”, he could mean a thousand years as we reckon time or literally just a few hours later according to our clock.
Perhaps, but if what he meant by “this day” was that unclear would he have said it?
 
  1. The man was as of yet unbaptized, and Jesus promised him Paradise. This is tantamount to baptism of desire, which also remits all punishment due to sin.
  2. The man joined his suffering with that of Christ by accepting it as just.
  3. Paradise does not necessarily mean heaven, but to the place of natural joy in She’ol before Christ opened up heaven after his Resurrection.
 
  1. The man was as of yet unbaptized, and Jesus promised him Paradise. This is tantamount to baptism of desire, which also remits all punishment due to sin.
    .
👍 Just wanted to add the Catechism paragraph that speaks of your first point:

**CCC #1263 **By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
 
From the time of Adam and Eve all the way till the time of Jesus, the souls of men were hell in death and hell, which is an actual place. Not only was there an actual place, there was two seperate areas in hell. The upper and lower part of hell.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 22: 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Eph. 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1Peter 4: 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Ezekiel 26:20 then will I bring you down with those who descend into the pit, to the people of old time, and will make you to dwell in the lower parts of the earth, in the places that are desolate of old, with those who go down to the pit, that you be not inhabited; and I will set glory in the land of the living:

Psalms 63:9 But those who seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Ezek. 31: 14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. 16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. 17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
 
There indeed is an afterlife.

A man is born into this world alive in his spirit, but because of sin, his spirit dies in him and unless his spirit is reborn, made alive again before he dies, his spirit which is dead in sin will be taken to the place where the unrighteous dead are reserved until the day of judgment when he suffers physical death.

Yet, if the man is reborn in his spirit, born again, then his spirit that was once dead because of sin is made alive again through the Son of God, the quickening spirit. And if the spirit of the man remains alive and the man suffers physical death, because his spirit was alive, it goes to where the living reside, to paradise.

So what it comes down to is the condition of the man at physical death. If the inner man is alive, it goes to heaven. If it is dead, it goes to hell.
 
That is an excellent question! But the answer is this, Baptism washes away all sin, meaning that if a person died immediately after being Baptized then they would not have to go to Purgatory. A person can receive the sacramental effect of Baptism without being Baptized with water, and the way is through a Baptism of desire as well as Baptism of blood. And the thief on the cross would fall into this catagory. St. Cyprian even commented on the thief on the cross by saying, “‘Today shall you be with Me in Paradise’ that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable.”
 
I didn’t even think of Baptism of Blood before, so basically because he wasn’t baptised before but converted on the cross be received the effects of sacramental baptism - including remission of temporal punishment due to sin - after death. So he would actually have been in Heaven that day.

👍
 
I didn’t even think of Baptism of Blood before, so basically because he wasn’t baptised before but converted on the cross be received the effects of sacramental baptism - including remission of temporal punishment due to sin - after death. So he would actually have been in Heaven that day.
It is unclear if the thief would have gained access into heaven, but it does say paradise which also means the bosom of Abraham or upper part of hell where the righteous dead were being held captive because of original sin.

Prior to Jesus coming and dying for all mankind, all those who died were held in death.

When Adam sinned, he sold the souls of all mankind unto death. So all who died were taken to one of two places in hell and death. The upper part of hell known as the bosom of Abraham where the righteous dead were held. The lower part of hell which was and is a place of torment to the unrighteous where they are reserved until the day of judgment.

Because no man could live a life without sin, all men were held in the place known as death and hell. That is why God sent his Son. Jesus came and lived a life without sin and when he was put to death, because he was innocent of death, death could not hold him and he was worthy of resurrection.

Yet, by Jesus dying, he died for all mankind, so that all who believe in him would not be sent to that place known as hell and death.

The interesting part is that by the sin of one man, death was brought to all mankind. And by the death of one innocent man, life was bought for all mankind.

Jesus said, " He who believes in me will never die. "

And he spoke truth. For though a man dies in his flesh, his soul does not die, does not get cast into that place known as hell and death.

Jesus said, " He who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

He indeed spoke truth. For though a man dies in the flesh, his souls lives in Christ and goes to be with Christ in paradise.

Now, all the righteous dead prior to Jesus’ resurrection could not assend into heaven til after Jesus defeated death.

And it is written that by the heart, a man comes unto righteousness, and by confession unto salvation.

Those who were righteous and were still held in death were set free when Jesus went and preached to them in death and hell. They were already righteous in their hearts. That is why they were in the upper part of hell known as the bosom of Abraham. Yet, they could not make confession unto salvation until Jesus defeated death and came and preached to them.

Now, when a man dies in Christ, his body sleeps in the earth awaiting to be resurrected on the day of resurrection. The soul goes with Christ. And on the day of resurrection, the souls of those who died in Christ come with him and will be reunited with their bodies that have been resurrected, changed from mortal, to immortal.

So what happens to a child that dies? Do children go to heaven or go to hell?

First, to answer this question, you must ask yourself what causes men to be cast into hell. Sin.

Children are innocent of sin. When a child is born, God breathes the breathe of life into the child. The child remains alive in spirit until he understands the laws of God, and that he cannot life a sinless life, live according to the laws of God. This is what is known as the age of accountability. This is when the spirit of the child is no longer that of a child, but of a young adult, thus dying in the spirit because of sin.

Yet, if a child dies without the understanding of the law, the child is innocent in the eyes of God and goes to be with God.

The point is this, if a child reaches the age of accountability, then he dies in his spirit and must have his spirit born again in him if he wants to enter the kingdom of God.

So it is written a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. John 3

And when a child reaches the age of understanding, then the child is no longer a child, but a young adult who is in need of forgivness.
 
Luke 23:43

Vulgata

Douay-Rheims​

My protestant friend used this quote to try to disprove Purgatory, saying this was his biggest problem with it.
He said that if Purgatory was true then this man wouldn’t be in Paradise “this day” it would be several days in the future.

Scripture Catholic says there was no punctuation in the original language so it said “I say to you this day” rather than “I say to you, this day…”; but I’d rather not have to refer to other translations.

So, how is this verse to be interpreted? How can I prove that Purgatory does exist despite this?
Jesus told the repentant thief - if he was a “good” thief he wouldn’t have gotten caught 😃 - that he would be in Paradise with Him, not Heaven. The two are not the same.

After Jesus died on the cross, He opened up the gates of Heaven but did not do so immediately. We know this because in John 20:17 Jesus says:

Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

He said this after His resurrection. So the thief was somewhere else for at least a couple of days.

Gary
 
It is unclear if the thief would have gained access into heaven, **but it does say paradise which also means the bosom of Abraham or upper part of hell where the righteous dead were being held captive because of original sin. **
That also seems likely, because paradise means “Sheol” which is the “upper part” of Hell, and because Jesus said “You will be with me”, and as we know, Jesus didn’t go to Heaven after His crucifixion, “he descended into Hell”, as the Apostles Creed says.

But that leaves something confusing, why wouldn’t he have gone straight to Heaven? Sinse it seems like he would have been baptised by his own blood and have all temporal punishment removed. I was under the impression that it is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that saves us, and sinse the Good Thief dies after Christ (Jn 19:32-33), it seems like he would have been saved by christ and gone straight to Heaven. Why couldn’t he do that?
 
He said this after His resurrection. So the thief was somewhere else for at least a couple of days.
I believe the thief was in the bosom of Abraham which is also referred to in scripture as paradise.
 
But that leaves something confusing, why wouldn’t he have gone straight to Heaven?
The reason Jesus went to hell was to set the righteous dead free from the hold satan had on mankind because of original sin.

You must understand all the righteous who suffered physical death were still held prisoner in hell. They were righteous in the eyes of God for believed God’s promise of salvation. Yet, they were still held prisoner because they could not confess unto salvation until the actual act had occured, which was Jesus defeating death. That is why Jesus went and preached to them in hell. Those bound in hell had to confess unto salvation.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Peter 4: 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How could Abraham see the day of Jesus if he did not exist. He was happy to see the day for he was going to escape the prison he was held in and go to heaven.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
Luke 23:43

Vulgata

Douay-Rheims

My protestant friend used this quote to try to disprove Purgatory, saying this was his biggest problem with it.
He said that if Purgatory was true then this man wouldn’t be in Paradise “this day” it would be several days in the future.

Scripture Catholic says there was no punctuation in the original language so it said “I say to you this day” rather than “I say to you, this day…”; but I’d rather not have to refer to other translations.

So, how is this verse to be interpreted? How can I prove that Purgatory does exist despite this?
Along with 1 Cor 3:15, Mt 12:32 has also been cited as a reference to purgatory (purgation). “…whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”…introducing the possibility that some sins are forgiven in the next life.
 
That also seems likely, because paradise means “Sheol” which is the “upper part” of Hell, and because Jesus said “You will be with me”, and as we know, Jesus didn’t go to Heaven after His crucifixion, “he descended into Hell”, as the Apostles Creed says.

But that leaves something confusing, why wouldn’t he have gone straight to Heaven? Sinse it seems like he would have been baptised by his own blood and have all temporal punishment removed. I was under the impression that it is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that saves us, and sinse the Good Thief dies after Christ (Jn 19:32-33), it seems like he would have been saved by christ and gone straight to Heaven. Why couldn’t he do that?
Eph 4:8 reads, “Therefore it says, ‘When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.’” I suspect that, even though Jesus was the first to enter Heaven, He did not do so alone. He led the captives in Sheol to Heaven.

Gary
 
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