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garysibio
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I suspect that “bosom of Abraham,” Paradise" and “Sheol” are all the same place.
Gary
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Gary
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garysibio
Guest
True, but they would have to be venial sins. If a person died in a state of mortal sin, he would not go to Purgatory.
Gary
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AlanF
Guest
Let me get this straight. Before the Ascension no-one could go to Heaven, they had to go to Sheol? And when Christ ascended into Heaven the chaps in Sheol could go to Heaven, and Christians could go to Heaven too?
What do you mean when you say “He led the captives in Sheol to Heaven.”? Did they ascend at the same time from Earth? Or did they go straight from Sheol? Heiscominginthe seems to be suggesting the former because he says Jesus led the captives out of Sheol when he was in there, perhaps that is what Matthew 27:52 means: “And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose”.
This is quite confusing to me.
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AlanF
Guest
I believe it’s also called Limbo of the Fathers.
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graceandglory
Guest
First of all, what definition of PARADISE is your friend using?
Remember, purgatory is for the “saved.” Hell is for the damned.
This was the first verse I looked up in my protestant “Strong’s Concordance” and I thought it proved purgatory, rather than disproved it. Your friend needs to realize that he doesn’t know all the definitions of every word in the Bible, even if he thinks he does. We assume we know more than we do. Upon closer look, we surprise ourselves.
Look up PARADISE.
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AlanF
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He thinks it means Heaven (actually my dictionary says that too, but the dictionary’s not written by theologians, is it), but I know now were talking about sheol, or Limbo of the Fathers. So it seems that verse has nothing to do with Purgatory at all.
The question now is what happened to the Good Thief. We know he went to Limbo but when did he finally get to Heaven? When did the other Old Testament Saints get into Heaven? What happened to a Christian who died immediately after Christ’s death?
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PJM
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Cute, but your friend does not win a “Cuppy doll”!
Why not
opcorn::nope:Think about it!
What happened after Christ died?
John 19: "31 Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him;(Picture) 33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. John 19: “38 After this Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body.(Picture) 39* Nicodemus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight.40* They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid.42 So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.”**
So here we see that Jesus died on Friday, the very day he Died for our Redeemption.And what happened next?
John 20: "1 Now on the first day of the week (SUNDAY) Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. 4 They both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first; (Picture) 5 and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying, 7 and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9* for as yet they did not know the scripture, that he must rise from the dead."
So Christ did not rise from the “dead” until Sunday!
And what does Christ rising from the Dead signify? That the gates of Heaven were now open! Three day’s after His Death, so the "good thief could not have gone “DIRECTLY” to heaven, because access to heaven had not yet been accomplished by Christ ressurection!
Luke 23:43 Haydocks catholic Concordence
"Ver. 43. I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. (Witham) — In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither. (Challoner) — The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. (St. Augustine) — St. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. St. Chrysostom thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind. (Tom. v. homil. 32.)
Love and prayers,
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garysibio
Guest
Here’s how I understand it:
Prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus, no one could enter Heaven. They went to a place which, in Hebrew, is called Sheol and is what is referred to as Hell in the creed. However there are two parts to Sheol separated by a large chasm. Reread the account of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). The rich man could see Lazarus but they could not go to each other.
[Note: Although some people think this is a parable, it very well might not be since it uses an actual name for one of the people involved and we don’t see that in any other parables. On the other hand, since the rich man is asking for water, we could assume that his body is there which it would not be in reality. The bodies were still in the grave.]
Matt 27:52-53 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. [ESV]
the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead, and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the holy city and appeared to a number of people. {NJB]
I reread this to answer your question and saw something I had never seen before: Although the dead apparently came back to life when Jesus died on the cross, they didn’t leave their tombs until after the resurrection. I always thought they came out when Jesus died.
Apparently the souls of the OT saints returned to their bodies for a time. The Bible does not go into a lot of detail about what happened but, at some point, they must have left their bodies and returned to Sheol or were then led into Heaven by Jesus. This would not have been immediately after the resurrection since they roamed around Jerusalem for a while and Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17).
I hope I have not confused you even further.
Gary
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distracted
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no time to read all posts…
but paradise is nt necessarily Heaven… and also, if the man was “baptized” (and being physically next to Christ as he was, that surely must be a form of baptism?? … much less the fact that Jesus said he forgave Him…), he WOULD go directly to Heaven…
Purgatory is for those who have accepted Christ but have betrayed Him, intentionally or otherwise, thorugh sin… and insufficient expiation of that sin… they need to be purged of the stain of that sin (deformation of the soul caused by the sin)…
but if you accepted Christ through water baptism… infusion of the Holy Spirit… and immediately died… well, you would have no sins to purgate…
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Jesus was the first to get to heaven, and then all the righteous dead followed and await to return with him on the day of resurrection to be reunited with the mortal bodies that sleep in the earth and will be resurrected from corruptible to in corruptible.
The thief had to go to the bosom of Abraham with Jesus, but was taken to heaven once Christ defeated death.
And all will return on the day of resurrction with Jesus to be given their eternal body.
1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The bodies of the righteous dead sleep, but their souls/ spirits are with the Lord.
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heiscominginthe
Guest
I don’t believe it was the souls of the OT dead that returned to their bodies. I believe it was the righteous who died from the time Jesus died til his ascention. Those who’s bodies were in the tomb but a short time. Yet, the question that remains is did these saints have their eternal bodies? That would mean there would have to be more then one resurrection of the dead, would it not?
So if these saints did not have their eternal bodies, they may of had to face physical death once more. Yet, having the knowledge of what happened and seeing the power of God, facing physical death a second time would be of little matter.
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garysibio
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Why is it any more likely that they died after Jesus? The soul leaves the body quickly after death. Either way, the soul would have to return to the body. I’m not so sure they had to face physical death again in the sense that they had to be killed. It might be that their souls just left their bodies after a while.
Truth is, we are given next to no information about this so it’s difficult, if not impossible, to be dogmatic about the exact events. It’s just speculation and not very profitable speculation at that.
Gary
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heiscominginthe
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The important thing to remember is Jesus had to defeat death. And how did he do that? By living a life without sin, being the unblemished lamb, by being put to death and by being resurrected.
Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not ascended unto the Father. But I believe he was resurrected just the same.
I believe those who came back to life were not dead very long which would be logical since the body decomposes with the exception of the Lord.
Yet, there is not much historical proof to assert any conclusion whether those who had been brought back to life were in their newly incorruptible bodies. Yet, I lean toward the notion they were not since biblical reference speaks of one resurrection if I am not mistaken, with the exception of the Lord. He was firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
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garysibio
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Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. His sinless life meant that He was the spotless Lamb whose blood was shed for our redemption. I’m not denying the resurrection when I say that Jesus told Mary He had not yet gone to the Father. He couldn’t be talking to Mary at all if He hadn’t resurrected.
Gary
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PJM
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**… The earth quaked. How far this earthquake was extended, is uncertain. — The rocks were rent, and the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints … **arose. St. Jerome takes notice, that these saints did not rise with their bodies till after Christ was risen; and so it follows, that going out of the graves, after the resurrection, they came into the holy city, (i.e. into Jerusalem) and appeared to many. (Witham) — This event was a prophecy of the fatal destruction that was shortly to fall upon the temple; and also, that it should henceforth give place to things more noble and sublime. It likewise shews that greatness of Christ’s power. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxxix.)
Matthew Henreys Protestant Comentary:" Commentary on Matthew 27:51-56
(Read Matthew 27:51-56)
The rending of the veil signified that Christ, by his death, opened a way to God. We have an open way through Christ to the throne of grace, or mercy-seat now, and to the throne of glory hereafter. When we duly consider Christ’s death, our hard and rocky hearts should be rent; the heart, and not the garments. That heart is harder than a rock that will not yield, that will not melt, where Jesus Christ is plainly set forth crucified. The graves were opened, and many bodies of saints which slept, arose. To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written. The dreadful appearances of God in his providence, sometimes work strangely for the conviction and awakening of sinners"
Friends we should accept that:
Isaiah 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts"
Love and prayers,
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heiscominginthe
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AMEN.
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heiscominginthe
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Wonder post, thanks PJM
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AlanF
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It’s this ‘Christ leading the saints into Heaven’ business I don’t quite understand. Christ defeated death by his Resurrection, but it is my understanding that He went to Heaven forty days later at His Ascension, if He had to be the first into Heaven and lead everyone else in wouldn’t they have to wait the forty days till the Ascension; but if that is so the Gospels still only speak on Jesus ascending, they don’t mention anyone else to be seen to ascend.
So I’m still confused about whether the Good Thief made it to Heaven three days after his crucifixion or forty three days after.
If the saints were resurrected at the moment Christ died, how would the Good Thief fit into that? Since he died after Christ it seems he would have been alone in Limbo with Christ when all the other saints had resurrected. Which seems odd.
(Am I making sense?)
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heiscominginthe
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Remember that Jesus appeared to Mary and told her not to touch him for he had not yet assended unto his Father.
Then he appeared to the apostles and they were able to touch him, especially Thomas who Jesus told to feel the holes in his hands and feet.
The saints could not preceed Jesus into heaven. Jesus preceeded them. It is written that Jesus was the firstborn from the dead.
As for those in hell being resurrected, I am not quite sure that is the word we want to use since it was only their souls/spirits that were rescued from hell. When we talk about those who die in Christ, it is because they died in the flesh, but are alive in spirit and await the day of resurrection when they will reunited with their earthly bodies that have been changed from corruptible to incorruptible.
If the dead saints were already resurrected, we wouldn’t refer to them as the dead in Christ, they would be referred to as the resurrected in Christ.
So in between that time Jesus appeared to Mary and the time he appeared to the apostles, Jesus assended to the Lord and took the once captive souls with him.
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AlanF
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PJM posted this from St John Chrysostom: "The earth quaked. How far this earthquake was extended, is uncertain. — The rocks were rent, and the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints … arose. St. Jerome takes notice, that these saints did not rise with their bodies till after Christ was risen; and so it follows, that going out of the graves, after the resurrection, they came into the holy city, (i.e. into Jerusalem) and appeared to many. (Witham) — This event was a prophecy of the fatal destruction that was shortly to fall upon the temple; and also, that it should henceforth give place to things more noble and sublime. It likewise shews that greatness of Christ’s power. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxxix.)
So the Bible and St Chrysostom are saying that rose bodily after the resurrection. Was it was temporary and their bodies went back to the graves and their souls to Heaven, or where they were assumed bodily into Heaven? That’s probably just speculation on our part. But perhaps someone here more knowedgably than I knows some writings from the Fathers or someone on this.
So, after Christ’s resurrection he met Mary, then He ascended into Heaven leading all the Old Testament Saints, then He came back down for the firty days with His apostles before ascending back into Heaven?..
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