Lust and attraction and adultry

[AngryAtheist8]

Lust – consenting to lustful thoughts/imaginings…seeking to arouse oneself…wanting to jump in bed (not just some uninvited unconsented to thought) etc

Sexual attraction–wow he is a nice guy …real cute …wow he is really my type …he is very attractive…nice face…etc

(I am not a girl …so I can not say speak girl )

I like large breasts.

When I see a busty woman my eyes are automatically draw to her bosom.
This is a perfectly natural instinctive reaction on my part in response to sexual attraction. Many other guys, including pious Christian guys, react the same way.

Now tell me if this is Lust.
Because if it is, your Catholic definition of Lust cannot be separated from normal male sexuality.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

One commits the sin of lust when one consents to a lustful thought. That means that if and when a lustful thought enters your mind, you do not entertain it, by thought nor deed. We all have lustful thoughts that pop into our minds, some more than others. These are not sinful in and of themselves. We must ensure however that we quickly recognize the thought and turn our thoughts away from it. Though lustful thoughts enter into my mind constantly, I have learned to turn away from it upon recognition. After some time I have found that I can look at the beauty of the opposite gender without “going there”, but I do still have to be careful and not admire too long.

In fact, a priest told me during confession that we are not culpable of sin if a lustful thought enters our mind as long as we turn away from it. If we do then that is a holy thing and we have defeated the devil from his temptation.

We are not to lust even over our spouses; that is, viewing our spouses as objects. Certainly, you can look at your spouse with intense sexual desire that does not amount to lust…why? Because you truly love him. You are not treating him like an object therefore you are not lusting after him.

Also, remember, if you did not know you sinned then you are not culpable, but that does not mean that you can continue to lust. Now that you are informed on the matter, it is incumbant upon you to come to the conclusion that your Lord and Savior wants you to obey his teachings

We can certainly say that lust is involved in prostitution, pornography, rape, degradation of women (and men for that matter) as children of God, not to mention children. Even if one is not religious, surely one can understand that nothing good comes from lusting. It is an evil action by its (religious) definition.

Without Lust the human race would have died out long ago.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Not concerned. Just interested in the perspective.

I guess it just goes to show all atheists are individuals, and individuals are different. Neither I nor my husband got busy doing everything we wanted except for that that would have us in jail. In fact we’ve never lived out life like that. If he was that kind of person, I’d never have married him We both have pretty high moral standards as it happens

I lust after my husband every day I hope I never stop. And I hope he never stops lusting after me

Thanks to those who answered.

I think Im a little clearer now from a biblical perspective.

Sarah x /QUOTE

Understanding does not necessarily bring empathy.

I actually have less sympathy for the Catholic perspective than I did 10 years ago, when I was almost totally ignorant of it.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

As mentioned lust is purely self-serving. If you truly love someone, you cannot lust after him/her because you are concerned with his/her well-being. You share pleasure during relations and not just to satisfy yourself. This is conjugal love and not lust. The joy of bearing children in a committed marriage is beyond comparison. Understand this and you will understand how important loving relations are in marriage and how the 6th commandment protects that.

Please remember that Catholicism is the ultimate expression of God’s logic and reason.

We don’t think and do things simply because somebody said so even though we do have faith regarding issues that we do not yet understand.
If you consider sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancy, children struggling without one or both parents, and the instability that arises when families break up, then you will understand the logic and reason of the 6th commandment (thou shall not commit adultery).

God loves us so much and knows what is truly best for us. That’s why He ordered the universe as it is. We have to trust Him that even though we are not mature enough to understand His Will completely that it is truly what is best and logical for us.

You really can view all of these Catholic precepts from an atheist perspective as simply acts of logic. Seeking pleasure is not all-fulfilling. Selfishness actually hurts one more than generosity benefits one. The teachings of the Catholic Church simply align us with the universe as it is. God made the universe, and He knows how it works much better than we do. Denying the logic and reason behind this is like denying gravity or any other physical law. When we resist God, we resist His very creation, and that is ultimately defeating. As an atheist, just think of it as accepting reality for what it really is. Catholics call that ultimate reality, God.

Actually you do (or at least as a Catholic you’re supposed to).

There are a number of infallible teachings of the Church that Catholics are not merely commanded to obey, but sincerely believe in.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Maybe this doesn’t answer your question, but from my perspective, God can bring about good from evil. I personally believe that your marriage is the result of a loving God providing for you, even if one of the inspirations for your comming together was lust. Does the good marriage mean that the lust was good? No, just like dropping a bomb on soldiers and civilians might end a war, it doesn’t make the killing of civilians good. Was the crowd of Jews yelling “Crucify Him!” at Christ good? No, but the death and resurection sure were!

I hope this helps.

You appear to be admitting that sexual attraction and Lust are one and the same.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I like large breasts.

When I see a busty woman my eyes are automatically draw to her bosom.
This is a perfectly natural instinctive reaction on my part in response to sexual attraction. Many other guys, including pious Christian guys, react the same way.

Now tell me if this is Lust.
Because if it is, your Catholic definition of Lust cannot be separated from normal male sexuality.

Sir, I believe this is actually some sort of maternal instinct at play here. Did your momma ween you too early.

I won’t elaborate on my particular attraction that I consider instinctive. But it was never that. Allowing oneself to imaging him or herself engaging in illicit/immoral acts is what makes it sinful. The initial attraction is one thing, but toying willfully with the thoughts is what becomes sin.

 

[underacloud]

I like large breasts.

When I see a busty woman my eyes are automatically draw to her bosom.
This is a perfectly natural instinctive reaction on my part in response to sexual attraction. Many other guys, including pious Christian guys, react the same way.

Now tell me if this is Lust.
Because if it is, your Catholic definition of Lust cannot be separated from normal male sexuality.

This is natural sexual attraction. It’s what happens next that is important…

I’m married, so when this happens I can think to myself “she’s attractive”, but I don’t let the thought progress because it has nowhere to go.

If you’re single, the initial attraction may be a lead in to considering talking to the woman and seeing if she’s a nice person and whether there’s potential for something to develop. In this context, sexual attraction can be considered as a God-given gift towards bringing people together for the (eventual) consideration of marriage. I found my wife very sexually attractive on our first meeting, and that lead on to something very wonderful.

If you’re single (or married) and have no interest in the woman, but just want to stare at her breasts for your own enjoyment, without respect for her as a person, then you’ve entered into the area of lust. Lust - in the Catholic understanding - isn’t about sexual attracion per se, it’s about sexual attraction removed from the respect that each and every person deserves. Lust removes the “person” from the equation, which is why we talk about “objectifying” women.

 

[carn]

I have a question about the words that Jesus said when He said if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultry with her. Now, I understand that adultry is a big sin in religion, but equally, in the secular world, it’s pretty bad for the health of the relationship, kids, and so on … so it has big consequences regardless if youre religious or not. So my issue is not with the physical ACT of adultry.

It’s more trying to understand how you CANT look at someone with lust, when you first meet, and are interested in that person. My husband is an awesome guy, a great father, a wonderful provider, a generous kind and loving husband, a considerate son, and a great lover, and he’s also my best friend… but, truth be out, I never knew any of that when I first set eyes on him - I just lusted after him

So how does that work? According to the Bible, Ive already committed adultry with him, before I even said hi to him

But without that lust, that curiosity, that interest to find out more, I would never have known any of the above … I certainly couldnt tell just by looking at him … I could only tell what the physical reaction was

And boy am I glad for it. But it leaves me wondering how do you reconcile that with the Bible.

Sarah x

While you left out some details, according to church teaching you do not seem to have acted immorally, because:
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

As you married him, you subordinated your desire to procreative and unitive purposes, so nothing wrong with that.

I would even say that unvoluntary looking at a womens breast is not itself wrong, as long as you instead of imganing something about that women, you turn your imagination towards your wife if you get aroused by what you see. As my wife likes to say:
“Nothing wrong with getting appetite outside, but you eat at home.”

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Gosh no … they give you chronic indigestion

We just rape pillage and plunder and have no morals what so ever

You have a morbid, sarcastic, and unorthodox sense of humor.

I like that.

 

[Matt_Tiza]

Actually you do (or at least as a Catholic you’re supposed to).

There are a number of infallible teachings of the Church that Catholics are not merely commanded to obey, but sincerely believe in.

Give us an example or two to discuss. You can point us to another thread if you don’t want to derail this one.

Remember that Catholicism stems from both Tradition and Holy Scripture.

If you look hard enough, there indeed are REASONS for everything in both Tradition and in Scripture. Even Catholics have to look really hard sometimes, but it is definitely worth the trouble to actually understand the basis of one’s beliefs.

God made LOGIC. Everything makes sense. Even if we don’t understand it at the deepest level, we have a way to explain it on a more superficial level. You are probably referring to common misconceptions in the Church. It should be easy enough to clarify those.

 

[Matt_Tiza]

There’s been a flurry of posts here, but we need to clarify that lust and sexual attraction are not mutually inclusive.

Lust is self-serving only. If you truly love your spouse, you are not lusting after him/her even if it feels the same as any other sexual attraction. How else would husband and wife have proper conjugal relations to have children without sinning? To suggest that sexual attraction in marriage is sinful is a self-defeating argument.

If you are lusting after someone to hook up with only, that is a different story. It defies the proper order of sexuality towards procreation as hooking up is only self-serving.

To put it short we are all creatures. We have an animal nature that naturally desires the opposite sex. Aspects of physical fitness are naturally attractive to us by our biological need to reproduce with the most fit members of our species. That’s obvious.

However, we are indeed special creatures, the most evolved of our kind, human beings, with a higher spiritual and moral conscience that animals do not have. Our God-given intellect, His very Image, is what makes us different from the rest of creation. Therefore we have the responsibility to restrain our animal natures according to His Holy Will.

For what REASON do we restrain our animal natures you ask? Think of the obvious consequences. God knows what is best for us even if we have not arrived at the solution yet ourselves. We need to learn to accept that we cannot know everything in our lifetimes, but to trust in God who made everything and is all-knowing by default. If we all lived self-serving, pleasure principle lives, where would our world be?

Think of how animals only live to survive. There is no spirituality, technology, or advancement in civilization there. We would be no different than they are if we had no consciences to restrain our animal natures. Again our God-given intellects are what exalt us in His Holy Image above all of creation. I always viewed the providence of mankind as self-explanatory, yet so many question why we don’t behave as animals.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Sexual attraction is when you want to make love to a person.
Lust is when you want to make love to a body.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

This is natural sexual attraction. It’s what happens next that is important…

I’m married, so when this happens I can think to myself “she’s attractive”, but I don’t let the thought progress because it has nowhere to go.

If you’re single, the initial attraction may be a lead in to considering talking to the woman and seeing if she’s a nice person and whether there’s potential for something to develop. In this context, sexual attraction can be considered as a God-given gift towards bringing people together for the (eventual) consideration of marriage. I found my wife very sexually attractive on our first meeting, and that lead on to something very wonderful.

If you’re single (or married) and have no interest in the woman, but just want to stare at her breasts for your own enjoyment, without respect for her as a person, then you’ve entered into the area of lust. **Lust - in the Catholic understanding - isn’t about sexual attracion per se, it’s about sexual attraction removed from the respect that each and every person deserves. ** Lust removes the “person” from the equation, which is why we talk about “objectifying” women.

In other words Lust is pure sexual attraction.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Give us an example or two to discuss. You can point us to another thread if you don’t want to derail this one.

Remember that Catholicism stems from both Tradition and Holy Scripture.

If you look hard enough, there indeed are REASONS for everything in both Tradition and in Scripture. Even Catholics have to look really hard sometimes, but it is definitely worth the trouble to actually understand the basis of one’s beliefs.

God made LOGIC. Everything makes sense. Even if we don’t understand it at the deepest level, we have a way to explain it on a more superficial level. You are probably referring to common misconceptions in the Church. It should be easy enough to clarify those.

I believe that the teaching that only men can be priests is considered infallible now.
And the Assumption of Mary has been for a while.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

There’s been a flurry of posts here, but we need to clarify that lust and sexual attraction are not mutually inclusive.

Lust is self-serving only. If you truly love your spouse, you are not lusting after him/her even if it feels the same as any other sexual attraction. How else would husband and wife have proper conjugal relations to have children without sinning? To suggest that sexual attraction in marriage is sinful is a self-defeating argument.
If you are lusting after someone to hook up with only, that is a different story. It defies the proper order of sexuality towards procreation as hooking up is only self-serving.

To put it short we are all creatures. We have an animal nature that naturally desires the opposite sex. Aspects of physical fitness are naturally attractive to us by our biological need to reproduce with the most fit members of our species. That’s obvious.

However, we are indeed special creatures, the most evolved of our kind, human beings, with a higher spiritual and moral conscience that animals do not have. Our God-given intellect, His very Image, is what makes us different from the rest of creation. Therefore we have the responsibility to restrain our animal natures according to His Holy Will.

For what REASON do we restrain our animal natures you ask? Think of the obvious consequences. God knows what is best for us even if we have not arrived at the solution yet ourselves. We need to learn to accept that we cannot know everything in our lifetimes, but to trust in God who made everything and is all-knowing by default. If we all lived self-serving, pleasure principle lives, where would our world be?

Think of how animals only live to survive. There is no spirituality, technology, or advancement in civilization there. We would be no different than they are if we had no consciences to restrain our animal natures. Again our God-given intellects are what exalt us in His Holy Image above all of creation. I always viewed the providence of mankind as self-explanatory, yet so many question why we don’t behave as animals.

And yet its an argument many Christians (including Catholics) have made.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Sexual attraction is when you want to make love to a person.
Lust is when you want to make love to a body.

How can you want to make love to a person if all you know of them is what they look like?

 

[kyrie80]

Well, for a guy’s perspective a thought that could be equivalent to the Bible is “I so wanna tap that”. I don’t know what a girl’s equivalent would be.

Lust: The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.

When you say you lusted after him, what exactly do you mean? Were you mentally undressing him? Did you think of how awesome it would be to get him into your boudoir? Did you mentally screw him? Merely think “Damn is he good looking” isn’t necessarily lust.

As for falling in love with someone without lusting, it’s definitely possible. Perhaps you didn’t know he was your match at first sight, instead you got to know him and his personality kind of grew on you, he was a nice person, fun to hang out with. Even when his jokes weren’t funny you still couldn’t help but laugh. Perhaps he sometimes did silly stuff, stupid stuff even and you couldn’t help, but find it so adorable.

Rereading what I just wrote that I’m totally lovestruck, Madly, Truly, Deeply in love, but I do not want to screw him (although he is cute)

Perfect explanation—I think that is spot on.

 

[kyrie80]

I have a question about the words that Jesus said when He said if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultry with her. Now, I understand that adultry is a big sin in religion, but equally, in the secular world, it’s pretty bad for the health of the relationship, kids, and so on … so it has big consequences regardless if youre religious or not. So my issue is not with the physical ACT of adultry.

It’s more trying to understand how you CANT look at someone with lust, when you first meet, and are interested in that person. My husband is an awesome guy, a great father, a wonderful provider, a generous kind and loving husband, a considerate son, and a great lover, and he’s also my best friend… but, truth be out, I never knew any of that when I first set eyes on him - I just lusted after him

So how does that work? According to the Bible, Ive already committed adultry with him, before I even said hi to him

But without that lust, that curiosity, that interest to find out more, I would never have known any of the above … I certainly couldnt tell just by looking at him … I could only tell what the physical reaction was

And boy am I glad for it. But it leaves me wondering how do you reconcile that with the Bible.

Sarah x

There have been plenty of good posts here attempting to explain the difference between pure lust and attraction. When taking those explanations and comparing them to how you describe you felt about your husband when first meeting him, it appears that your feelings were more of a sexual attraction.

I am pleased to see an atheist on these boards who tries to ask questions to learn and/or debate in a charitable way. Whether it is actually true or not, I think at least shows that you are open and/or interested in the Faith. I’ll pray for you.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

How can you want to make love to a person if all you know of them is what they look like?

Have you ever looked at someone (in a non-sexual setting) en thought you were looking at just a body?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Have you ever looked at someone (in a non-sexual setting) en thought you were looking at just a body?

What does that have to do with anything?

The fact of the matter is, initial sexual attraction (at least among guys) is based on what the other person looks like.