Lust - Give it a rest!

[Flopfoot]

Alright I’m a young man and I’ve seen a lot of posts about lust on this forum and it’s slightly driving me nuts, because by conscience and common sense I wouldn’t have thought half this stuff you are talking about is sinful - or in other words, I would draw the line a lot further forward than most of what I’ve read here.

Where you guys draw the line you’d suggest that I’m sinning every second day. Odd that my confessor seems to think I hardly sin at all.

Since when do we get so worked up about any other thoughts? Like in most cases, we’d say if someone thinks about something, but then chooses not to do it because it would be wrong, then good on them, they have not sinned. Only if they give into temptation by acting upon the thought then they sinned. Eg stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. Thinking about it ain’t a sin, doing it is.
Of course I believe the actions are sinful (eg premarital sex, masturbation, rape, etc). The thoughts, nope.

And stealing is even a fairly unnatural thing, as opposed to thinking about sex which is totally natural due to the hormones that God put in our bodies and set the glands with a timer ready to explode at puberty. What’s more, thinking about sex has got to have a hell of a lot of mitigating circumstances in today’s modern world where we are bombarded with it all the time. You stick it in a guy’s body, you stick it in front of his eyes, then you call him a sinner for thinking about it? Give us a rest.

Since few of us have psych degrees and even those who do can’t fully understand how the brain works, it’s kind of hard for anyone to really make a call on exactly how thoughts work or how we are thinking at any given time. How can we even educate people on what to think or what not to think if we don’t even know what thinking is? Actions are far easier to deal with, it’s binary, did you do it or not. (Okay not always that simple but you get what I mean).

There’s a lot of talk about “objectifying” women etc when we look at them. What does this even mean? Okay from a natural understanding it means that you think of someone only as a black box, they’re just a way for you to get what you want. Don’t we do this to some extent for lots of people? Politicians are just ways for us to get policies implemented, workers in a factory are just numbers we need to get the product made. Of course we don’t actually mean it when we think this, but we’re not always going to take the time to think “he’s not just a worker, but a person with his own rights and a desire to know God and etc.” It’s just a shortcut. So to use a similar shortcut “gee it would be nice to get intimate with that girl” doesn’t mean that one thinks she’s not actually a person. If later on you have a relationship with her and don’t treat her as a person that’s different. But a passing thought never hurt a woman. You know what I mean?

 

[Flopfoot]

I’ve briefly searched the bible and CCC for any mention of lust. Yes, I know para 2351. And there’s been a dozen discussions about it with the same point made by one side - that thinking about a girl in a sexual way does not mean you actually seek to have non procreative and unitive sex with her. Difference between thinking something would be nice and seeking it anyway. And disordered desires and inordinate pleasure, is another one of those things thats hard for us to measure. Like I said above, God put those hormones in us, so that normal thoughts about sex are natural - it’s only when those thoughts start getting disordered that it becomes lust, like when someone wants it so much they no longer care that premarital sex is wrong, and then this is reflected in their actions anyway so it’s easy to measure their sin.

But anyway, the bible passage it all comes from, ay? 'Cause really other than Matt 5 I can’t see lust specifically discussed as being sinful when it’s just a matter of the mind. So, read the chapter, the whole thing. You might recognise it as the chapter where Jesus appears to be raising the bar above all possible human acheivable level.

Right after Jesus discusses lust, He says that bit about “If your eye causes you to sin, cut it out and throw it away”. Catholics everywhere know this is not to be taken literally. Shortly after, He says the “turn the other cheek” thing. Again, this is widely accepted as a recommendation as what is better, not actually forbidding retaliation up to the amount you were hurt (as the eye for an eye rule - this still applies). Then there is the pretty much ignored passage about not taking oaths.

So why do we take it so seriously and literally when He says that we are committing adultery when we look at a woman with (note: subjectivity! and the word intent, which implies such thoughts would be followed by an action to confirm them) “lustful intent”. Rather, as in accordance with the rest of the chapter which is full of recommendations, raising the bar just to give an example (but not actual expectations or forbiddances), use of emotive language to make a point (cut out your own eye) that’s not meant to be taken literally, why don’t we see this statement as a recommendation, a teaching about the goodness of purity, not as a “if you ever look at a woman or think about sex then you’re a rotten sinner and you will be punished for it”.

The final verse of the chapter: “You must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. This is Jesus encouraging us to try to be perfect, not making a law against imperfection, or making imperfection a sin that we commit. We are all imperfect. This shouldn’t mean we constantly think we are committing sins.

 

[Magicsilence]

We are all imperfect. This shouldn’t mean we constantly think we are committing sins.

Do these two sentences not contradict each other?

The general impetus of these posts (and I mean no harm) seems to indicate you are trying to justify some of your actions.

God Bless!

 

[Riley259]

I’ve briefly searched the bible and CCC for any mention of lust. Yes, I know para 2351. And there’s been a dozen discussions about it with the same point made by one side - that thinking about a girl in a sexual way does not mean you actually seek to have non procreative and unitive sex with her. Difference between thinking something would be nice and seeking it anyway. And disordered desires and inordinate pleasure, is another one of those things thats hard for us to measure. Like I said above, God put those hormones in us, so that normal thoughts about sex are natural - it’s only when those thoughts start getting disordered that it becomes lust, like when someone wants it so much they no longer care that premarital sex is wrong, and then this is reflected in their actions anyway so it’s easy to measure their sin.

But anyway, the bible passage it all comes from, ay? 'Cause really other than Matt 5 I can’t see lust specifically discussed as being sinful when it’s just a matter of the mind. So, read the chapter, the whole thing. You might recognise it as the chapter where Jesus appears to be raising the bar above all possible human acheivable level.

Right after Jesus discusses lust, He says that bit about “If your eye causes you to sin, cut it out and throw it away”. Catholics everywhere know this is not to be taken literally. Shortly after, He says the “turn the other cheek” thing. Again, this is widely accepted as a recommendation as what is better, not actually forbidding retaliation up to the amount you were hurt (as the eye for an eye rule - this still applies). Then there is the pretty much ignored passage about not taking oaths.

So why do we take it so seriously and literally when He says that we are committing adultery when we look at a woman with (note: subjectivity! and the word intent, which implies such thoughts would be followed by an action to confirm them) “lustful intent”. Rather, as in accordance with the rest of the chapter which is full of recommendations, raising the bar just to give an example (but not actual expectations or forbiddances), use of emotive language to make a point (cut out your own eye) that’s not meant to be taken literally, why don’t we see this statement as a recommendation, a teaching about the goodness of purity, not as a “if you ever look at a woman or think about sex then you’re a rotten sinner and you will be punished for it”.

The final verse of the chapter: “You must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. This is Jesus encouraging us to try to be perfect, not making a law against imperfection, or making imperfection a sin that we commit. We are all imperfect. This shouldn’t mean we constantly think we are committing sins.

I’d suggest reading Theology of the Body by JP II or for a more explanatory book on the Pope’s work, Theology of the Body *Explained *by Christopher West. This is fantastic stuff and will answer your questions satisfactorily.

 

[Flopfoot]

Do these two sentences not contradict each other?

The general impetus of these posts (and I mean no harm) seems to indicate you are trying to justify some of your actions.

God Bless!

No, the sentences don’t contradict one another.

As a Catholic surely you know there is a difference between original sin and actual sin.

We don’t “commit” original sin, we’re just born with it and affected by it. This is what makes us imperfect - everything from my flat feet, to the times when I make a good resolution and don’t keep it. But these imperfections are not cases of me committing actual sin.

You suggest that I’m trying to justify my actions. While that’s not completely accurate (this thread is about what we look at and what we think about, rather than our actions), I’d like to point out that justifying one’s actions is not necessarily a bad thing. If a man is innocent, and accused of some wrong doing, shouldn’t he be trying to justify himself?

I recall you having some trouble with scrupulosity in your past, just as I have. And some of these hardcore CAF threads aren’t very friendly to scrupulosity, rather, they just feed the disease.

 

[rwoehmke]

To say that thinking is not an action is in my opinion an error if by thinking you mean meditating or muddling over certain ideas. Yes thoughts pop into ones head and there is not much to be done about that. When one makes the decision to mull over and further entertain certain thoughts it can become a sinful action. In todays world can a young man avoid having sexually colored thoughts from popping into his mind. I would say not. But once one has popped to continue to entertain it, that is a different matter. If a prostitute popped into your room you could hardly be held responsible, but then if you said to her/him, “Sit down and stay a while.” Well…

 

[whatevergirl]

Lust, even if locked away in someone’s mind, can lead to even deeper sins…when not put in check. Therefore, posters come here to air out any problems or issues they are having…including thinking impure thoughts. Sometimes, impure thoughts stroll into our minds…uninvited, but if we don’t ‘account’ for them, for lack of a better word–we can easily dismiss them as meaningless…fleeting…but, eventually thoughts carry into actions.

I will agree with you though that lust seems to be talked about to great extents on here…right down to if a woman should receive pleasure in the bedroom with her husband. I just think that at times, to someone who might not frequent this board…a person might think…is this all Catholics talk about, sex sex sex?? And how ‘bad’ it is, or how bad it is to desire one’s spouse…oh, you must have lust on your mind, then.

There are so many facets to our faith, it’s somewhat odd to me, that there’s so much attention given tomasturbation, homosexuality, and sexual issues. There are like 5 threads going at the same time about masturbation…

At times, it can also be construed that Catholics do not rejoice enough in their faith–and instead, dwell on one another’s sins…and feel guilty all the time over their own sins, when they should be repenting yes, but also knowing that walking around guilt ridden is ALSO very much a sin.

 

[goofyjim]

I consider thoughts only as venial sins while acting on them as mortal. Venial sins need not be confessed unless one is bothered by them. Otherwise they are removed through communion.

 

[StPolycarp77]

I know your pain. However, as Christians we trust God knows what’s best for us. He created us and He’s given us the ability throught His Spirit to overcome anything. . . .including lust and it’s stronghold.

I know it sounds like I’m kicking a dead horse but consider the saints. Most of them perfected the virtue of chastity. How’d they do it? After all, their just like you and I. If God has granted THEM the grace to be overcomers He’ll do the same if we truly and sincerefully desire it. It’s really that simple. To get to a point where nothing here on earth makes a difference to us other then to love one’s neighbor. It’s a command from our Lord. He would command something to us if He knew full well that we wouldn’t be able to live by it.

Satan has this society by the horns. We do live in a time and age where sexuality is expressed more so then any other time in world history. But consider how much more stronger we’ll be in the Lord when we DO overcome! God needs these type of people in today’s day in age. He’s seconds from returning and He needs as many fearless warriors to gather His sheep back to where they belong before time runs out.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

The final verse of the chapter: “You must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. This is Jesus encouraging us to try to be perfect, not making a law against imperfection, or making imperfection a sin that we commit. We are all imperfect. This shouldn’t mean we constantly think we are committing sins.

Wow, so much to comment on! I will just do one.

We exist to please God.

When we are imperfect, we displease God. God is perfect, imperfection was not created by Him, but by us. It is not our purpose to create imperfection. He created us to be perfect.

Displeasing God is sin.

We are all imperfect is just another way of saying we are all sinners.

Dan

 

[Lazerlike42]

The reality is that Catholic teaching, following after the example of Jesus, has always held that impure thoughts are mortal sins when consented to for the sake of pleasure. Whether or not we think they are doesn’t change the fact anymore than thinking that anything else that isn’t a sin isn’t.

The Christian life is sometimes a hard one, as Jesus said it would be. We have our crosses to bear, out of love for Christ, and out of fear for our souls. Jesus said to be perfect, as our Father is perfect. It’s hard, but as the saints havev proven, we can get there if we trust in God and do our best to sincerely follow Him.

 

[goofyjim]

Impure thoughts are still just that-thoughts. Actions can harm and therefore be mortal. Thoughts do not. I still hold that thoughts are venial and be removed through reception of the Eucharist.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Impure thoughts are still just that-thoughts. Actions can harm and therefore be mortal. Thoughts do not. I still hold that thoughts are venial and be removed through reception of the Eucharist.

How do you fit your belief with Jesus’ instruction on adultery in the heart? If we believe that Jesus spoke the truth, the reasoning would seem to be that if adultery is a mortal sin, then wishing to have adultery (which is a thought) is also a mortal sin.

Others here have attempted to extrapolate this to other sins of thought, but I don’t know if that can be reasoned easily.

Dan

 

[goofyjim]

How do you fit your belief with Jesus’ instruction on adultery in the heart? If we believe that Jesus spoke the truth, the reasoning would seem to be that if adultery is a mortal sin, then wishing to have adultery (which is a thought) is also a mortal sin.

Others here have attempted to extrapolate this to other sins of thought, but I don’t know if that can be reasoned easily.

Dan

Then one would have to believe that even the state of same sex attraction is sinful since there are some impure thoughts involved. I just choose not to be scrupulous about the whole thing.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Then one would have to believe that even the state of same sex attraction is sinful since there are some impure thoughts involved. I just choose not to be scrupulous about the whole thing.

Not sure I follow you.

A person experiencing an involuntary heterosexual desire is not sinning. An occasion of sin, (temptation) perhaps, but not sin itself. Occasions of sin are to be avoided if the risk of sin presented by the occasion is not justified by some other good.

A person consciously wishing to commit an adulterous act would be sinning. I believe there is a clear distinction between the two situations.

For those with SSA, I would consider it the same. The involuntary desire would not be sin, only an occasion of sin, (temptation). If there is conscious desire to act on it, that would be sin, even if the attempt is never made.

Dan

 

[Kevin42]

I have never seen so much written on how something that could potentially become sinful, or may already be sinful is not such a big deal and we just need to get over it. If you seek perfection in Christ, do not tolerate anything that would even put you near the occasion of losing that.

This whole post seems to be saying, “well this stuff would be all good and wonderful, but the thing is…it’s just to hard for us people, so let’s stop making such a big deal out of it. Sheesh!” Part of that is correct. It is too hard for us. It is probably as difficult as that of a camel passing through the eye of a needle. What we do need to keep in mind though is that Glory to God, we have Jesus the Christ, through whom all things are possible. It is even possible for us poor sinners to enter the Kingdom of the most Holy God of All Creation-but only by the supernatural mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ.