Lust: his fault or hers?

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soccerDad

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I had a problem at daily mass yesterday. A young woman came to church in skin tight spandex shorts. You know, the kind that leaves nothing a mystery, not with pads like the biking shorts. :eek:

Well, I could not even turn around during our sign of peace. I think she was offended, but I have trouble as it is, keeping my thoughts on holy ground so-to-speak. I come to church to receive the sacrament, and be strenthened for these kind of challenges the rest of the week. I take fidelity to my wife seriously. The safest avenue for me is to remove the temptation. I am offended by slinky cocktail dresses at church. Is it not enough that I am continually assaulted by sexual images from every media outlet? Must I be confronted with it at church also? Have mercy women, I am only a man! Are there no modest venues left? What is the priest thinking when she comes to communion?

Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.

So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
 
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soccerDad:
Should I have said something?
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No I don’t think you should have said something. All you would accomplish is making the women angry, and you’re right she may even think you’re a perve.

The woman is ignorant of what is appropriate but I doubt a comment from the man in the pew in front of her will change that. She be at different place in her faith walk and does understand what modesty means. Let Jesus work on her heart. I see people in church wear things that are totally inappropriate but I don’t think it’s my job to be the clothing police.

If it’s that difficult for you move to a different pew. And if bother Father he could discreetly pull her aside after Mass and charitibly discuss it with her. If he doesn’t feel it is prudent to that then you shouldn’t either.
 
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soccerDad:
So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
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His fault or hers? Both, I think. How could you not look when it’s so obvious and yes, I think someone dressing like that causes others to sin, and you at the same time for looking and being so distracted by it…but it’s our fallen human nature right?

I agree women have lost their perspective, their sense of modesty, and don’t give a rat’s butt who it causes problems for as long as they’re happy. And I agree with the third part quoted above that some actually seem to make a game of it.

So it’s up to you to be stronger and turn to God for the grace to be able to forego being so distracted by it.

Penitent
 
No fault on either party.

a. Yes, she should dress more modestly at church, but I highly doubt her intention in selecting that outfit was to see how many men she could cause to fall into a state of sin.

b. You, you’re the one with the weakness and you are working on resolving that with God’s grace. You have to develop what it takes to live in this world with all it’s blemishes and still protect your soul. It is not easy, but certainly, you cannot infringe your problems on other people, particularly strangers.

As for not turning around to offer her a sign of peace, that alone would have been good reason to not receive communion. The entire purpose for that gesture is to make sure that our hearts are free to receive Christ by releasing all anger, resentment, envy, disdain toward our brothers and sisters present in the Mass with us, with whom together, we have just offered our prayers and intentions to the altar before us. If we cannot release any ill thoughts toward our brethren then our heart is not ready to receive Jesus.

The proper thing to have done would have been to offer this woman a sign of peace while uttering a prayer for her - to be open to the lesson of modesty by the Holy Spirit, and forgiveness for her for she knows not what she is doing.

Your weakness, of which you are already aware and working on (God bless you in your battle) is that when you set eyes on a woman your mind still processes the image secularly instead of spiritually. Your eyes have been trained in the past to zoom in on certain parts of a woman instead of viewing the entire person - including Christ within her. Perhaps it will help if, whenever you set eyes on a woman in that attire, after recognizing she’s a major temptation to you, that you immediately tell yourself, but no - she is a woman entirely - Christ is in her…look for Him and speak to Him through her. You know He’s not in her parts so your focus will be redirected toward her heart and soul - perhaps through her smile or her eyes (but at least your eyes will be set above her neck so what she’s wearing will not be in view).

It is a very difficult journey you are on. I will keep you in my prayers, but please know that even your weakness is not entirely your fault. Our society messed with your head and you have the burden of de-programming yourself. But you are not alone and it sounds like you have a lovely wife to help you through this.

Best of luck to you.
 
Have you considered asking Father to place an announcement in bulletin concerning proper dress?

.02 duly deposited.

Z
 
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YinYangMom:
As for not turning around to offer her a sign of peace, that alone would have been good reason to not receive communion.
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I think it was prudent for the OP not to turn around. He admitted to being tempted to look, and was avoiding the temptation. Furthermore, he was showing MORE respect for that woman by not encouraging a situation that would cause him to lust after her body. Frustration over lack of modesty sure doesn’t seem like a mortal sin, and receiving the Eucharist will forgive venial sins.
 
I’ve reconsidered my answer. When we sin, no one causes it but ourselves. So to the OP’s original question, you would be at fault because we are each responsible for our own sins…that being said, people can cause us to more easily fall into sin, which I do believe she did…and is there truly a person on the face of this planet, Catholic or not, who really believes spandex shorts skimpier than bike shorts is appropriate dress for Mass? Or maybe it is that she’s just starting her journey and hasn’t reached the point yet that she was given so much more dignity by her Creator than she is willing to acknowledge and show by her dress.

Penitent
 
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vluvski:
Frustration over lack of modesty sure doesn’t seem like a mortal sin, and receiving the Eucharist will forgive venial sins.
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Good point. I suppose he would have had to have had that in his heart when he went to receive then…“Lord, forgive me for not being able to offer peace to the woman behind me, I trust that you know my heart and understand my need to be prudent in this situation. Help me to be more gracious in the future. Amen” kinda thing as he’s heading up the aisle.
 
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YinYangMom:
Good point. I suppose he would have had to have had that in his heart when he went to receive then…“Lord, forgive me for not being able to offer peace to the woman behind me, I trust that you know my heart and understand my need to be prudent in this situation. Help me to be more gracious in the future. Amen” kinda thing as he’s heading up the aisle.
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Yes, not turning around out of spite for that “whore-ibly dressed woman” to offer sign of peace does not put one in the proper mindset to receive.
I appreciate it when the priest has the congregation pray the Confiteor at the Penitential Rite. At least hearing themselves say it might invoke some sort of repentance! It sure puts me in the right frame of mind, and provokes a mini-examination of conscience.
 
<And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?>

Call me what you will but I agree with this statement.

Don’t even try to tell me that a woman in her 20’s 30’s or 40’s does not know what she is doing when she dresses herself. I will go out on a limb and say that they do 100% of the time.

100%

Funny how I have never seen a woman dress this way at a daily Mass. But EVERY single Sunday there are numerous women dressed like their next stop is 42nd street.

It’s intentional on their part. What are they thinking? That, I cannot answer.
 
I agree that it can be culpable on both sides. You are only obligated to take yourself out of the equation, so do whatever is necessary in order for that to happen. After she was seated, if she was a distraction, then you could get up, go back to bless yourself with some holy water to cool yourself off, then find another pew where she wasn’t visible or not a distraction to you.

You may physically react when you see such things- your heart racing, get nervous, etc. but that in itself is not lustful. You control your thoughts and need to see her as a sister in Christ, not the tart in the pew behind you.
 
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soccerDad:
So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
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Both!
What you question would suggest is that Eve had to fault because Satan tempted her.

Regardless even if the women intend to tempt you, the giving in to lustful thoughts is your fault.

I find not fault in your not turning around during sign of peace if you did this avoid sinful thoughts. Remember we are to avoid the near occasion of sin. (I can’t even look at the St Pauli Girl beer Billboards :rolleyes:
But let’s be realistic guys if we let our lustful thoughts get the best of us it would not matter what they were wearing. For example a very well endowed woman would attract the same lustful though regardless if she was wearing a turtleneck sweater or a plunging v cut blouse.

As far as you ladies, I really don’t think you fully grasp the problem some of us guys have :whistle: . It’s bad enough that studies show men (those who give in to lustful thoughts) think about sex once every 3 min.

SoccerDad keep praying and fighting off those thoughts. When times get tough :whistle: I like to think about the story of St. Thomas chasing the prostitute from his room with a burning log. (She was sent by his wealthy family to tempt him away from the religious life.)

Peace
Beebs
 
Don’t even try to tell me that a woman in her 20’s 30’s or 40’s does not know what she is doing when she dresses herself. I will go out on a limb and say that they do 100% of the time.
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As a woman who once dressed “like that”, I agree. I always dressed (?) to be looked at - and it worked, every time. I knew exactly what I was doing.
Now I can look back and realize that I had low self esteem and went slightly less than half dressed in public to lift my opinion of myself. If guys looked, then I had to be interesting and attractive, right?
How sad was I? I was not a person of faith then and did not realize my sin in relation to God.
To every person I caused a near occasion of sin and every person I offended, I have seriously repented, gone and sinned in that way no more.
 
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iamrefreshed:
Funny how I have never seen a woman dress this way at a daily Mass. But EVERY single Sunday there are numerous women dressed like their next stop is 42nd street.
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Maybe that’s it, though.

Certainly if I have an event to go to on a Sunday after Mass I’ll dress for the upcoming event. But for the most part, our family really does try to reserve Sunday as a day of rest and family time so it’s not an issue with us.

But a lot of people book many things on their Sunday calendar so it is quite possible this is the reason why we see such poor dress code decisions being made. How many of you have seen the kids in their soccer uniforms at Mass, including shin guards? This happens quite a bit at our parish. At first glimpse I find it sad, but then I’m so happy they attended Mass before their matches.

People aren’t dressing for their visit with Christ as much as they are for what comes after. 😦
 
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catsrus:
As a woman who once dressed “like that”, I agree. I always dressed (?) to be looked at - and it worked, every time. I knew exactly what I was doing.
Now I can look back and realize that I had low self esteem and went slightly less than half dressed in public to lift my opinion of myself. If guys looked, then I had to be interesting and attractive, right?
How sad was I? I was not a person of faith then and did not realize my sin in relation to God.
To every person I caused a near occasion of sin and every person I offended, I have seriously repented, gone and sinned in that way no more.
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Praise God for your conversion in this behavior!

Did you dress provacatively at Mass with the intention of getting guys to notice you, or did you do that mostly in public places but not in church?
 
Good story I heard recently that I will butcher here.

Two priests were walking down the street when an incredibly alluring prostitute walked past them. One of the priests looked away as soon as he noticed her and kept his eyes averted until she had past. The other looked at her from the moment he first saw her until she had passed.

After she had gone, the first priest asked the second “Why did you stare at that scandalously dressed woman?” The second answered “I was praying that God would help her to realize that her beauty was never meant to demean her like that, but to glorify her.”

Strangely enough, BOTH priests did the right thing. Each did what was right for the stage of holiness he possesed. If they had both reversed actions, both would have sinned.

Sound familiar? IMO, if you didn’t turn around at the sign of peace in the knowledge that if you had, your eyes would have fluttered downwards, you did the RIGHT thing. If you knew you could simply meet her eye and stand firm, but didn’t due to irritation, you blew it. Only you and God know which one it is.

It’s hard for me too to understand why some women seem to WANT men to see them as sexual objects instead of unique human beings. There doesn’t seem to be any other explanation for some of the clothing styles out there. Perhaps its just a failure to discern the difference between objectifying attention and genuine personal interest???
 
Did you dress provacatively at Mass with the intention of getting guys to notice you, or did you do that mostly in public places but not in church?
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No, I did not convert until I was too old to “dress” provacatively. LOL! So, I’ve not ever been to church dressed in my “clubbing” outfits. But I did go to work, shopping, the grocery and everywhere else like a desperate housewife.
Actually, I get embarrassed just remembering how I used to be.
I only wanted to share this because someone might actually think that a woman is oblivious to her effect on others in her manner of dress.
At least in my case and those I knew, that is not true. She knows.
 
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catsrus:
No, I did not convert until I was too old to “dress” provacatively. LOL! So, I’ve not ever been to church dressed in my “clubbing” outfits. But I did go to work, shopping, the grocery and everywhere else like a desperate housewife.
Actually, I get embarrassed just remembering how I used to be.
I only wanted to share this because someone might actually think that a woman is oblivious to her effect on others in her manner of dress.
At least in my case and those I knew, that is not true. She knows.
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Ah, well thanks for sharing. Insight helps.
 
First of all, I want to point out that at Mass, I myself have seen some really terrible inmodestly dress too! :mad: Not just with women, but with some men too, in shorts!! :eek:

I think I’ll have to talk to the priest about perhaps saying something about dressing appropriately? :hmmm: It even angers me to see someone dress like that (believe it or not,before I converted more to Catholic, I even wanted to dress like that but my mother told me that I would be attracting guys…now I am against it because of what the Church believes on it…been understanding it more and more)

I think it’s both faults. It’s her fault for dressing like that - especially if she KNOWS NOT to dress that way for church - and it’s the guys’ fault for even looking. I notice that (not to mention I am a big observer naturally) a lot and it angers me when I see that happen!

Perhaps the Church needs to speak out about this to the whole world for crying out loud!

Though I’ll admit t that I sometimes wear tight jeans too but they’re covered with my long black duster. Anyway want to call me a hypocrite there, I dare you too. Sorry.
 
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