Lust: his fault or hers?

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manualman:
Good story I heard recently that I will butcher here.

Two priests were walking down the street when an incredibly alluring prostitute walked past them. One of the priests looked away as soon as he noticed her and kept his eyes averted until she had past. The other looked at her from the moment he first saw her until she had passed.

After she had gone, the first priest asked the second “Why did you stare at that scandalously dressed woman?” The second answered “I was praying that God would help her to realize that her beauty was never meant to demean her like that, but to glorify her.”

Strangely enough, BOTH priests did the right thing. Each did what was right for the stage of holiness he possesed. If they had both reversed actions, both would have sinned.

Sound familiar? IMO, if you didn’t turn around at the sign of peace in the knowledge that if you had, your eyes would have fluttered downwards, you did the RIGHT thing. If you knew you could simply meet her eye and stand firm, but didn’t due to irritation, you blew it. Only you and God know which one it is.

It’s hard for me too to understand why some women seem to WANT men to see them as sexual objects instead of unique human beings. There doesn’t seem to be any other explanation for some of the clothing styles out there. Perhaps its just a failure to discern the difference between objectifying attention and genuine personal interest???
This is actually a true story. It was a large group of Bishops leaving a council meeting, and one kept staring at the woman. The other bishops warned him, “Father, sheild your eyes!” He turned to them with tears in his eyes saying, “Did you not see her beauty?” He was, of course, speaking of her beauty as a child of God.

The bishop, whose name escapes me, is a prominent saint. Begins with an ‘n’ maybe. The woman actually sought the bishop out wondering how someone could look on her with such love, and converted to become St. Palagia.
 
Thanks folks,

From LovedOne: Thanks for the articles. Here is a quote that struck home;

“Women feel freer than ever to dress provocatively in part because men can say nothing about it. Omnipresent sexual harassment laws and “consciousness raising” seminars in businesses and schools have frightened men into not making any sexual comments to a woman.” - whether they be suggestion or objection. Let’s add the scandals in the church to that also, so the clergy is scared and silent on any related topics.

I notice that even on this post, the most abrupt condemnation of my thoughts and actions appears to have come from women. Salt on cuts.

Provocative dress is in fact sexual harassment and sin. So, apparantly are lustful thoughts, even if largely involuntary, and directly caused by the provocative dress.

I am tired of hearing of the harassed plight of women in society. I just don’t see it that way. It is men who are constantly under assault. Of course, that’s only if you don’t want to look. If you do, as most men do, everything’s copacetic. It’s only those attempting to follow God who are under constant assault. In fact, I find even women actually like all the images of women, for comparison I guess. Have you ever looked at women’s magazines? We try not to take the kids to the mall anymore. The almost-nude advertising is billboard size now.

Back to my situation: Maybe next time I will be able to smile pleasantly, squint my eyes, and shake her hand. My family was with me, so I could not move pews tactfully. It was better for my frame of mind to ignore her. Looking back, maybe there was a small part of me that wanted her to wonder about that, and perhaps look at herself differently. I’ll have to avoid that next time. I’m sure there will be a next time. But, there are always those moments when you miss someone around you during the peace sign. I often wonder if my wife would be bothered if I shook the tart’s hand, but missed someone else. That possibility at least was eliminated. Also, our parish tends to rush through it. Someone is missed all the time, and it is no big deal. It all probably went unnoticed.

The idea about a small paragraph in the bulletin is a good thought, but I only see families and senior citizens reading those, so it will almost certainly miss the mark.

It’s like we need a big sign over the door: “Are you ready to meet the Lord with your brothers and sisters? Are you contrite and humble of heart? Humble in manner and dress? Loving to your enemies? Have you been to confession?..”
 
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vluvski:
This is actually a true story. It was a large group of Bishops leaving a council meeting, and one kept staring at the woman. The other bishops warned him, “Father, sheild your eyes!” He turned to them with tears in his eyes saying, “Did you not see her beauty?” He was, of course, speaking of her beauty as a child of God.

The bishop, whose name escapes me, is a prominent saint. Begins with an ‘n’ maybe. The woman actually sought the bishop out wondering how someone could look on her with such love, and converted to become St. Palagia.
It’s St. Pelagia and St. Nonnus.

Here a link:

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=811
 
The Catholic Church has teachings on modesty.

"1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections the the Holy Spirit forms in us…The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: “charity, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.”

2521 Purity requires Modesty…Modesty protects the intimate center of the person…"

2552 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love…Modesty is decency…It is descreet."

Obviously it is the man’s responsibilty, if he notices an imodestly dressed woman, to look away in order to make sure that his thoughts remain pure. But it is a womans duty as a catholic to dress modestly AT ALL times, so those cocktail dresses for the party they have planned after mass, they should still be dressing modestly for that occassion. There is no reason why a woman should be dressed immodestly, unless she is alone or alone with her husband at home in private. The OP did a good job by admitting his weakness and doing the only things he could to avoid a near occasion of sin, he looked away from her. This woman however committed two sins, one of immodesty and the other of leading another person to sin. We are responsible for ourselves, but we are also supposed to make sure the the things we say and do, do not cause someone else to fall into sin. Take for example a priest preaches things in complete contrast to the Catholic churches teachings, his parish may end up believeing things that aren’t true. The priest is going to have a lot more to answer for since he is supposed to know better and it is his responsibility to lead people towards the truth, not away from it.
 
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migurl:

2521 Purity requires Modesty…Modesty protects the intimate center of the person…"

But it is a womans duty as a catholic to dress modestly AT ALL times,…
This woman however committed two sins, one of immodesty and the other of leading another person to sin.
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This would be my reading of the situation also.
However, I would add, that it should be the obligation of the clergy, when they see women dressed this way, to inform the parishoners by posting or some other method that they are obliged to observe the norms of decency when coming to Church.
I noticed that at the local golf course, they have posted a set of rules governing how people should be dressed in a decent manner when playing golf. In my personal opinion, it is even more important to be dressed decently when going to a Catholic Church. I also noticed a while back that at other Churches, such as the SSPX Church in this area , for example, they have posted rules that ask women to wear modest dresses and for men to also dress modestly when attending their services. I don’t know exactly all of their rules on this, but the gist of it is that women and men are asked to dress modestly. I alos notice that the Muslim women are dressed quite modestly, not only at their places of worship, but also in public. Why are Muslim women dressed so modestly in public whereas some of the Catholic women are coming to Church in provocative sexy outfits? And the Catholic clergy are not saying much about it?
 
I don’t know if this is a true story . . . but I remember hearing about a teen age guy who sat behind an immodestly dressed girl at Mass. After Mass he said to her, “Because of the way you’re dressed and the thoughts I had, I couldn’t receive Communion.”

I think for a teen guy to speak up and say something to a teen girl would be great. For a married man (perhaps older) to do the same, might be taken wrong. —KCT
 
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catsrus:
Actually, I get embarrassed just remembering how I used to be.
Actually, I think you should be proud of the way you are now and that you were able to change
:blessyou:
 
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soccerDad:
So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
My personal opinion? Both. She came dressed inappropriately to Mass and you need to deepen your prayer life in order to have this kind of lustful tendency defeated.

If it was only ‘her’ fault for dressing inappropriately, an argument can be made that men cannot control their thoughts and so it is up to women to dress in a way that will not cause the men distress and lustful thoughts. Well, I have a problem with that - if one extrapilates then that means you (men) cannot be trusted to do what is necessary to be holy, Godly men. Then, for my safety and the safety of all the females in the world we should not allow you out of the house without electronic shock collars to keep you in line.
Well, I do not believe that - I have a great deal of respect for men and I believe that those who are TRULY striving to be holy are able to turn their thoughts to Heaven when confronted by sexual images.

And I happen to agree that there has been a general breakdown of decency in dress - especially when attending Mass! Some of these women and young girls dress like prostitutes and should be ashamed of themselves for treating themselves with such disrespect. If you want to be treated like a lady, you should dress like one…especially when coming together with your Catholic Family to worship Our Lord.

But then what do I know…
 
In my opinion, which I usually try not to exercise with matters of faith, is that this will always be something that we as Catholics will always have to deal with. Asking ourselves, “why does she dress like that?”, or, “Why am I thinking that?”, is essentially useles and will only lead us more toward sin. The truth of the fact, is that, human nature will always be a part of our existence as human beings, and that to debate on how to remove it, would be as pointless as debating how to remove our souls. In matters like this, before I jump ot conclusions and opinions, I always look for holy back-up in the scriptures and writings of the Church.

In the Catechism, is says, “Purity requires modesty , an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusal to unviel what is hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves towards them in conformity with the dignity of persons and thier solidarity”. (2521)

Also, part of 2522, “Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.”

So as we can see, modesty is a virtue, and aught always be followed fully. As we are unable to avoid human nature, we are called upon to avoid sin and tempation by exercising modesty and purity. Let us not forget that this is why we must avoid sin and ask for forgiveness, because human nature cannot be overidden. Therefore, the best direct action I would say, is to pray; Never underestimate the power of prayer…NEVER… Pray for the revival of modesty and purity. We as human beings always have, and always will have these thoughts at one time or another in general. What matters is that we know them to be impure, and ask forgiveness for them. Trust me when I say, that Jesus and the Father almighty are well aware of the world, the Church, and especially the man who thinks a certain way and the woman who dresses a certain way.

Let us also not forget, that even great saints had trouble dealing with lustful thoughts. One great Saint, (Francis I believe) threw himself into a thorn bush when he was plagued by impure thoughts, (not that I am recommending it…). And when plagued with the thought of how nice it would be to have a wife and a family, he ran out half-naked in the middle of winter, built a family out of snowmen, and said, “Here is your family, now feed them!”.
(not recommeded either)

Perhaps the best thing to do is not to aks ourselves whose fault it is, or to assign blame, for these will only lead those who think of them toward anger and away from the Church. Ultimately, if you know and realize that it is impure, avoid it, and ask forgiveness, there is nothing you can do. I assure you my friends, that to continue assigning fault will ultimately get you nowhere. Instead, let us concentrate on prayer, that women will always be mindful and obediant (for if it is sinful, women must be obediantly against it) of the concepts of modesty and purity, especially, but not only in reference, Church (being within it), and that men will always avoid sinful thoughts and ask forgiveness. Let us not forget, that within the church is God the Father, Jesus, Madonna, (the tabernacle) and that to dress inappropriately or to have impure thoughts is in the clear sight and knowledge of them all. We must do all in our human powers to avoid these sins.

In a perfect world (the world to come), none of this would be necessary. All would be mindful and pained by thier sins, as is Jesus of ours (Such as was stated at Fatima-also stated that there are more sins of the flesh than any other today). But until then, we must, to quote my great-grandmother’s 106 year old bible, “persevere until the end in good works and die in thy grace.”.May Christ be with you in your discernment.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam! (to the greater glory of God),
R.A.H.

P.S. a few words of advice: always look to Scripture and Catechism before jumping to opinions, both of which can be found here while posting.
Also, you might want to look into Fr. Corapi’s televised catechism teachings. I know the tapes cost an outragueous amount of money as only Loyola and some other press make them. But trust me, if it weren’t for Fr. Corapi and his discernment of the Catechism, I would have been posting on this forum…RELIGIOUSLY!
 
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LSK:
And I happen to agree that there has been a general breakdown of decency in dress - especially when attending Mass! Some of these women and young girls dress like prostitutes and should be ashamed of themselves …But then what do I know…
I think you know a lot.
I agree that Catholic women should not dress provocatively as prostitutes when going to Church. But I also think that the Catholic clergy have let us down by not reminding people of the necessity of dressing decently and by not posting some simple rules of dress when attending Church. The local golf club posts these simple rules. Well, maybe some people think that it is more important to dress decently on the golf course, and not so important to dress decently at a Catholic Church?
 
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LSK:
If it was only ‘her’ fault for dressing inappropriately, an argument can be made that men cannot control their thoughts and so it is up to women to dress in a way that will not cause the men distress and lustful thoughts. Well, I have a problem with that - if one extrapilates then that means you (men) cannot be trusted to do what is necessary to be holy, Godly men. Then, for my safety and the safety of all the females in the world we should not allow you out of the house without electronic shock collars to keep you in line.
No, the problem is the immodest dress and becoming a near occasion of sin, not so much if one sins while looking at you or not. It would be like getting caught for reackless driving. You could tell the police officer why does it matter there are no cars on the road. One reason why reckless driving is so bad is because it could harm another because you increase the risk of a crash. But the law is supposed to be applied to all reckless driving, not just if you nearly killed someone or not.

Now there will be a differance if one realizes it or not. Besides as one stated already one person could be dressed modestly and another my have an occiasion of sin looking at her. If she is dressed in what she thinks as modest, and he is extremly sensative that would not be her fualt.

For that matter the woman should also be consious of if she has dressed immodestly in the past. Possible she has dulled herself in the understanding of what is immodest or not. Also there is a need for men to turn their thoughts from sin. We all need to work on our weaknesses be it a want of attraction or a want of lustful thoughts.
 
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YinYangMom:
No fault on either party.

a. Yes, she should dress more modestly at church, but I highly doubt her intention in selecting that outfit was to see how many men she could cause to fall into a state of sin.
I have to disagree with this, we are “our brothers keeper” and it is our job to protect them. That includes not causing them to fall into sin.
b. You, you’re the one with the weakness and you are working on resolving that with God’s grace. You have to develop what it takes to live in this world with all it’s blemishes and still protect your soul. It is not easy, but certainly, you cannot infringe your problems on other people, particularly strangers.
Yes, he is the one with the weakness but it is also her job to not attack that weakness by her dress or what ever.
As for not turning around to offer her a sign of peace, that alone would have been good reason to not receive communion. The entire purpose for that gesture is to make sure that our hearts are free to receive Christ by releasing all anger, resentment, envy, disdain toward our brothers and sisters present in the Mass with us, with whom together, we have just offered our prayers and intentions to the altar before us. If we cannot release any ill thoughts toward our brethren then our heart is not ready to receive Jesus.
His intention in not turning was to avoid lustful thoughts. It would be better to not turn than to turn and be drawn into sin. I don’t think it was resentment that caused him not to turn.
The proper thing to have done would have been to offer this woman a sign of peace while uttering a prayer for her - to be open to the lesson of modesty by the Holy Spirit, and forgiveness for her for she knows not what she is doing.

Your weakness, of which you are already aware and working on (God bless you in your battle) is that when you set eyes on a woman your mind still processes the image secularly instead of spiritually. Your eyes have been trained in the past to zoom in on certain parts of a woman instead of viewing the entire person - including Christ within her. Perhaps it will help if, whenever you set eyes on a woman in that attire, after recognizing she’s a major temptation to you, that you immediately tell yourself, but no - she is a woman entirely - Christ is in her…look for Him and speak to Him through her. You know He’s not in her parts so your focus will be redirected toward her heart and soul - perhaps through her smile or her eyes (but at least your eyes will be set above her neck so what she’s wearing will not be in view).

It is a very difficult journey you are on. I will keep you in my prayers, but please know that even your weakness is not entirely your fault. Our society messed with your head and you have the burden of de-programming yourself. But you are not alone and it sounds like you have a lovely wife to help you through this.

Best of luck to you.
It seems like you are implying that it is a strange thing that some men are drawn to the way a woman looks. Like it is something that man has caused and it is his job alone to work out. The sin is in allowing the thought to take control. The woman is partially responsible for putting that thought in the mans head. Mens thoughts and attractions are disordered often, but we were created to be attracted to women. When a woman dresses in a provocative outfit a lot of mens eyes are naturally drawn. It is not the modern society that has done it( although it may have added to it), it is the nature of men to be attracted. I am not making an excuse for men. Women need to make sure they don’t draw men into sin by the way they dress.

I think it is a nice suggestion about praying for the woman and also viewing Christ in her.
 
Its not like there is no positive for a woman in this. Would you like to attract a lot of male friends and aquantances not because they think you’d be a good friend but because they had lustful thoughts about you. Which would you rather have as a friend, and who do you think you can count on for help when in need?
 
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soccerDad:
I had a problem at daily mass yesterday. A young woman came to church in skin tight spandex shorts. You know, the kind that leaves nothing a mystery, not with pads like the biking shorts. :eek:

Well, I could not even turn around during our sign of peace. I think she was offended, but I have trouble as it is, keeping my thoughts on holy ground so-to-speak. I come to church to receive the sacrament, and be strenthened for these kind of challenges the rest of the week. I take fidelity to my wife seriously. The safest avenue for me is to remove the temptation. I am offended by slinky cocktail dresses at church. Is it not enough that I am continually assaulted by sexual images from every media outlet? Must I be confronted with it at church also? Have mercy women, I am only a man! Are there no modest venues left? What is the priest thinking when she comes to communion?

Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.

So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
It is the fault of both in my opinion. It is the fault of the woman that she dresses in a way that attracts the man to sin. It is the fault of the man to foster the thoughts in his head.
 
One thing I can say that might be of help is this: There is a difference between temptations, and *entertaining those temptations. *

Temptations are not sinful, and they’re going to happen. Nothing to be sorry about there. On the other hand, if you willfully entertain temptations, then that would be sinful, because you’re cooperating with the temptations*.

*Let’s go back to the instance at the pew. Although you cannot change the circumstance, you can choose between various ways of handling it.

The Wrong Thing to do: Judge that person, let yourself harbor uncharitable feelings of ill will. If you did this, ask for forgiveness.
The Right Thing to do: Might be two things, actually, like another poster said.
1.) If you know the temptation is too great, then like with any temptation, you’re asked to keep yourself away from the near occasion of sin. As long as you’re not feeling uncharitable about it, it’s probably okay, if you must, to avoid looking at this person. Include some prayers to boost your resolve and foster your feelings of charity for this person.
2.) If you can handle it (it takes a stronger person), then it’s fine to turn around and offer the sign of peace. You’ll know you can handle it if what you’re feeling for this person is some sorrow for how she sees herself, and you feel some compassion and charity for her as a creature of God, a fellow sinner, etc.

But remember – temptations aren’t sins. There’s a difference between a thought entering your head, and letting yourself actively entertain that thought by cooperating with the temptation.

What you do with temptation is nip it in the bud, and remove yourself from it if need be. Some people, when encountering a scantily clad icon in the media or scantily clad person in real life, pray the temptation away, by saying prayers for that person. Temptation can actually be an opportunity to do something charitable–talk about a way to “right” a “wrong”!

So let it be such an opportunity. Seeing as temptation is all around us, keep using it for the opportunity that it is–you’ll only actually get stronger once you make that your habitual reaction to it.
 
In retail there is a principle that says don’t display the merchandise if it is not for sale, and its corollary, if it is on display, it is for sale.
 
This one case where I think blaming is counterproductive, which is why I listed practical ways to handle the real issue: temptation.

Something that people might want to consider, is why some women dress the way they do. I really see evidence pouring in–including from actual scientific studies–that older and younger women alike are pounded with the message: You must be beautiful or you’re not worthy. And the clear interpretation of “beautiful” seems to be “sexy as possible”. A recent poll conducted in Britain almost made me fall out of my chair: More girls would rather look like sexy supermodels, than be smart.

Just the way women approaching older years can be preoccupied with appearances to the point of feeling awful about how they’ve changed, so are the younger ones, who are either implicitly or explicitly told in no uncertain terms, that “If you aren’t looking like this, something’s wrong with you.”

Such young women have a whole host of crosses to deal with in the form of other people who buy into this ideology, and pulling them into accepting it, through their unacceptance, nagging, peer pressure, teasing.

Some women become promiscuous, and dress so, because they have been molested as innocent girls. They learned a false, warped kind of “love” and the means to attain the only kind of “love” they know.

Some of these women might be proud to put their bodies on display, but the means by which they learned to be proud of this are something to consider–especially if you’re having problems with feeling charitable towards them.
 
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jimmy:
It is the fault of both in my opinion. It is the fault of the woman that she dresses in a way that attracts the man to sin. It is the fault of the man to foster the thoughts in his head.
We can’t help what thoughts pop into our heads, we can only help what we do when we realize they are there. It sounds like the man in question did his best to get rid of them and guard his eyes.

I think some females do dress to get attention, but I don’t believe they realize quite how hard it is for men when they do. Since women are not as visually aroused, they may not understand what it’s like for a man.

My 19 yr old daughter recently had to explain to a room full of Confirmation candidates (and their parents) why it was imprudent to dress immodestly on the Confirmation retreat. They even held a mock fashion show about what to wear and what not to wear. If the girls are scantily dressed, our youth minister will give them a big, ugly moo- moo to wear. —KCT
 
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jman507:
No, the problem is the immodest dress and becoming a near occasion of sin, not so much if one sins while looking at you or not. It would be like getting caught for reackless driving. You could tell the police officer why does it matter there are no cars on the road. One reason why reckless driving is so bad is because it could harm another because you increase the risk of a crash. But the law is supposed to be applied to all reckless driving, not just if you nearly killed someone or not.

Now there will be a differance if one realizes it or not. Besides as one stated already one person could be dressed modestly and another my have an occiasion of sin looking at her. If she is dressed in what she thinks as modest, and he is extremly sensative that would not be her fualt.

For that matter the woman should also be consious of if she has dressed immodestly in the past. Possible she has dulled herself in the understanding of what is immodest or not. Also there is a need for men to turn their thoughts from sin. We all need to work on our weaknesses be it a want of attraction or a want of lustful thoughts.
Sorry, I disagree. The responsibility for the avoiding a ‘near occasion of sin’ is mine for my own sin. I can never be completely sure that what I am doing - even within the bounds of what the particular society may deem as decent (i.e. the society of my Catholic Family) will not be misconstrued or misinterpreted by someone who is not concentrating on their own journey of holiness. And I do not believe the analogy is the same - though I do agree that one should drive safely whether there are cars on the road or not.

The problem, as I see it, is that women cannot ever be sure what will cause a man to sin in lustful images and could dress modestly and still become an object of lust. The idea that it is all on our heads is too darn close to the belief system that requires women to dress in burkas in order to ‘protect themselves from men’.
Again, while I appreciate the responsibility I have to add to a situation and not detract from it I believe that responsibility is shared EQUALLY by both sexes.
As I stated quite clearly in my post I agree that the general dress at Sunday Mass has deteriorated over the years. In our Parish we have a 'Papist Priest" (yippee) who reminds us as the weather turns warm to dress appropriately and he does so from the pulpit and in his weekly address in the bulletin. I appreciate it. We can becomes desensitized out there in the world and forget that what we do at Sunday Mass is SACRED and deserves to be treated as such.
or, I could be wrong…
 
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puzzleannie:
In retail there is a principle that says don’t display the merchandise if it is not for sale, and its corollary, if it is on display, it is for sale.
:clapping: :rotfl:and thankyou, sistergirl!
 
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