Lust: his fault or hers?

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This one case where I think blaming is counterproductive, which is why I listed practical ways to handle the real issue: temptation.

Something that people might want to consider, is why some women dress the way they do. I really see evidence pouring in–including from actual scientific studies–that older and younger women alike are pounded with the message: You must be beautiful or you’re not worthy. And the clear interpretation of “beautiful” seems to be “sexy as possible”. A recent poll conducted in Britain almost made me fall out of my chair: More girls would rather look like sexy supermodels, than be smart.
Wise words, Karen. I think you have a wonderful point and we are pounded with those images. “Beautiful” used to equal Classy…
Just the way women approaching older years can be preoccupied with appearances to the point of feeling awful about how they’ve changed, so are the younger ones, who are either implicitly or explicitly told in no uncertain terms, that “If you aren’t looking like this, something’s wrong with you.”
Which would also lend itself to the increase in plastic surgery, implants, etc in an attempt to alter God’s creation.
Such young women have a whole host of crosses to deal with in the form of other people who buy into this ideology, and pulling them into accepting it, through their unacceptance, nagging, peer pressure, teasing.

Some women become promiscuous, and dress so, because they have been molested as innocent girls. They learned a false, warped kind of “love” and the means to attain the only kind of “love” they know.

Some of these women might be proud to put their bodies on display, but the means by which they learned to be proud of this are something to consider–especially if you’re having problems with feeling charitable towards them
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Very good point. While I believe that one cannot completely point at the world and say, “SEE it is NOT MY FAULT! Look what they DID to me” I think it does play a role.
 
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soccerDad:


Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.
Greetings my friend,

You and I are in the same boat

Are you at the point in your struggle that looking at her during the Peace would have cause you to dwell, or just to look imappropriately?
 
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catsrus:
As a woman who once dressed “like that”, I agree. I always dressed (?) to be looked at - and it worked, every time. I knew exactly what I was doing.
I guess men and women respond differently to visual stimulus. If I stood in my front yard with my shirt off, (and if I were handsome!), the best I might get from the opposite sex is a shy glance… or (more realistically) a scorn. If a girl stands topless, I know my eyes will pop out… It will take me a terrible effort to look away. I guess this will be the same with most other men too.

The difference is that men’s immediate response to such stimulus is carnal, whereas women’s is more benign. When women ‘dress up’ to attract or even tease men, I don’t know if they fully realize its immediate carnal impact on men. Oh Yes… they know that, dressing that way, they hold that power over men. But I really doubt if they are aware that the manner in which they dress can instantly ignite carnal thought in men.

The question was… is lust his fault or hers. I guess it is his fault in as much as he fails to exercise control and yields to the temptation. It is her fault to dress provocatively, be in the Church or in any other public place.
 
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soccerDad:
I had a problem at daily mass yesterday. A young woman came to church in skin tight spandex shorts. You know, the kind that leaves nothing a mystery, not with pads like the biking shorts. :eek:

Well, I could not even turn around during our sign of peace. I think she was offended, but I have trouble as it is, keeping my thoughts on holy ground so-to-speak. I come to church to receive the sacrament, and be strenthened for these kind of challenges the rest of the week. I take fidelity to my wife seriously. The safest avenue for me is to remove the temptation. I am offended by slinky cocktail dresses at church. Is it not enough that I am continually assaulted by sexual images from every media outlet? Must I be confronted with it at church also? Have mercy women, I am only a man! Are there no modest venues left? What is the priest thinking when she comes to communion?

Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.

So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
 
Mathew George:
I guess men and women respond differently to visual stimulus. If I stood in my front yard with my shirt off, (and if I were handsome!), the best I might get from the opposite sex is a shy glance… or (more realistically) a scorn. If a girl stands topless, I know my eyes will pop out… It will take me a terrible effort to look away. I guess this will be the same with most other men too.
Funny you should post this. Today, I was on my way in to church for adoration. We’re having some concrete work done out front and it was pretty hot today. I saw the contractor’s truck parked in front of the church and I could hear his vehicle radio. I thought oh boy, what are we going to distantly be listening to during adoration. When I opened my door, I heard classical music, so I was a bit shocked because he didn’t look the classical music type. I know he looked muscular, tan, and fairly good looking (see, we do notice).

As I was walking up the church steps, lo and behold, he took his shirt off (Yup! Right in front of the church). Guess what? I looked. I remember thinking that he looked good and I kind of grinned and just said hello. No “lustful” thoughts, but trust me, I noticed. I was also thinking what the heck Father was going to think when he came around the corner to come to the church to start adoration (I mean there are little old ladies and old men coming in for adoration throughout the day).

So, I don’t think this has anything to do with the thread (sorry), but I just wanted to clarify that although my eyes didn’t “pop out,” I’m in my forties so I’ve got better control of my eyeballs than I used to, but we women do notice (at least this one does) a nice physique especially with no garments over it.

Penitent
 
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LSK:
The problem, as I see it, is that women cannot ever be sure what will cause a man to sin in lustful images and could dress modestly and still become an object of lust. The idea that it is all on our heads is too darn close to the belief system that requires women to dress in burkas in order to ‘protect themselves from men’
Sorry, but I think this is way over the top. There’s a big difference between requiring burkas, and the reasonable expectation that a man not be asaulted with spandex, butt-cracks, and massive amounts of exposed cleavage during the holy sacrifice of the Mass. Big difference. There is such a thing as modesty, and there is a purpose for it.

That aside, here are a few more helpful articles on this topic:

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=29166

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=21570

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=1110

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=30046

Finally,
Titus 2:1-8
1 But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine. 2 Bid the older men be temperate, serious, sensible, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. 6 Likewise urge the younger men to control themselves. 7 Show yourself in all respects a model of good deeds, and in your teaching show integrity, gravity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be censured, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say of us.
 
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soccerDad:
I had a problem at daily mass yesterday. A young woman came to church in skin tight spandex shorts. You know, the kind that leaves nothing a mystery, not with pads like the biking shorts. :eek:

Well, I could not even turn around during our sign of peace. I think she was offended, but I have trouble as it is, keeping my thoughts on holy ground so-to-speak. I come to church to receive the sacrament, and be strenthened for these kind of challenges the rest of the week. I take fidelity to my wife seriously. The safest avenue for me is to remove the temptation. I am offended by slinky cocktail dresses at church. Is it not enough that I am continually assaulted by sexual images from every media outlet? Must I be confronted with it at church also? Have mercy women, I am only a man! Are there no modest venues left? What is the priest thinking when she comes to communion?

Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.

So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
Boy, soccerdad, you are really brave for making this post! You have really taken a lot of flack here.

I think women of all ages have a responsiblity to dress modestly every day, not just at Holy Mass. Otherwise they are becoming the occassion of sin for others. What a great responsiblity that is before God!

It would be great if priests would speak more on this issue of improper dress at Mass, but they don’t.

I also think some women are so used to dressing immodestly, due to current fashions, that they don’t even recognize it as such.

Tan Publishers has a great book out called “Dressing with Dignity” by Colleen Hammond. You could always buy 10 or 20 copies, and with your priest’s permission, leave them in the back of the church.
 
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YinYangMom:
N
It is a very difficult journey you are on. I will keep you in my prayers, but please know that even your weakness is not entirely your fault. Our society messed with your head and you have the burden of de-programming yourself. But you are not alone and it sounds like you have a lovely wife to help you through this.

Best of luck to you.
YinTangMom,

This post was generous, kind and understanding of you. However, the implication is such that the “weakenss” is associated with a problem this man has. Well, I suppose it is. Yet he is not in a minority, He is the vast majority. This world we find ourselves in is terribly cruel in that God designed us with this “weakness”, and we Christians are called to carry this cross to our grave. I have a difficult time undestanding God’s purpose here.

To put it in perspective. battleing this “weakness” renders life hardly worth living. Not battleing it makes life tolerable yet sinful. A difficult place indeed.

I don’t think I speak for myself here. Maybe this is Gods way of rendering the process of aging and death, to not look so bad. Frankly I am sick of it (not life, battling this temptation). I look forward to the battle being over.
 
Tan Publishers has a great book out called “Dressing with Dignity” by Colleen Hammond. You could always buy 10 or 20 copies, and with your priest’s permission, leave them in the back of the church.
that is an awesome idea!!!
 
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catsrus:
As a woman who once dressed “like that”, I agree. I always dressed (?) to be looked at - and it worked, every time. I knew exactly what I was doing.
Now I can look back and realize that I had low self esteem and went slightly less than half dressed in public to lift my opinion of myself. If guys looked, then I had to be interesting and attractive, right?
How sad was I? I was not a person of faith then and did not realize my sin in relation to God.
To every person I caused a near occasion of sin and every person I offended, I have seriously repented, gone and sinned in that way no more.
Since you were so brave in admitting this, I will join you.

I used to dress for (the wrong kind of) attention too. I deliberately drew attention to my “assets” in order to get noticed.

In my sad little mind, attention from males equalled worth. I had no self esteem. I was dressing to attract attention, but not to cause sin. At that point I had no faith at all. I had no concept of " near occassion of sin". What I was doing was purely selfish. It was all about what I got out of it.

Ditto on your apology. I couldn’t even begin to say it better than you did.

Malia
 
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soccerDad:
I often wonder if my wife would be bothered if I shook the tart’s hand, but missed someone else.

It’s like we need a big sign over the door: “Are you ready to meet the Lord with your brothers and sisters? Are you contrite and humble of heart? Humble in manner and dress? Loving to your enemies? Have you been to confession?..”
I am very surprised to hear you refer to a woman in such a manner, especially when you end your post wanting to attach a sign regarding “humble in manner and loving to enemies.”

If you have difficulty with looking at a woman lustfully, it is as someone else mentioned–a secular perspective that needs to be rooted out. A woman is beautiful because of her personhood and the fact that she is created in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. If you are unable to see that yet, then that is your weakness which it appears you are wholeheartedly addressing.

I agree that she shouldn’t be dressing immodestly at mass, but she is obviously ignorant of her mistake. Not many young women take time out of their week to attend not just Sunday mass, but DAILY mass as well. Castrus and FW’s both give examples of purposely dressing in an immodest manner, but both admit to having zero faith while doing so. This girl is at daily mass, so obviously some faith is there and she is perhaps truly oblivious. It is impossible to fully know her intention. Instead of referring to her as a “tart,” I’m sure you can find some other charitable description, even if it ends up being “misguided young woman.”

You degrade her personhood even further by not just objectifying her as merely a pair of spandex shorts, but especially by calling her a tart! It is extremely disrespectful.

A “tart,” by the way, is defined as a prostitute when the definition is googled. Dressing immodestly does not make one a prostitute, despite your disdain for spandex shorts.
 
you are not alone in this type of problem, unfortunately it seems that men (including priests) cannot say anything due to sexual harassment laws & these type of ladies don’t listen to other ladies that try to address them about their manner of dress.

I too see more skin than should be allowed in any church, therefore I have warned my friend that if this problem gets worse than I would be forced to grab her shoulder & close my eyes (be blind) thoughout Mass & Communion in order to not fall into this sinful kind of thinking.

don’t worry about being offensive if it keeps you from sinning, GOD understands, even if people don’t
 
Good points, Abby. Furthermore, the 80’s are a couple of decades ago. No one is wearing spandex shorts as a fashion statement. About the only time anyone wears spandex shorts is for the purpose of exercising, you know mens sana in corpore sana. I realize that it is not all that appropriate to wear exercise clothing to mass, but if that was the case I don’t think she was dressing with the intention of being provocative. Even if she wasn’t dressed to exercise though, the mere fact that she is wearing spandex shorts is kind of an indicator that she doesn’t really put a lot of thought into what she is wearing, so I am sure she didn’t dress with the hopes of putting lustful thoughts in anyone’s mind.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Princess_Abby:
I am very surprised to hear you refer to a woman in such a manner, especially when you end your post wanting to attach a sign regarding “humble in manner and loving to enemies.”

** If you have difficulty with looking at a woman lustfully, it is as someone else mentioned–a secular perspective that needs to be rooted out.
** A woman is beautiful because of her personhood and the fact that she is created in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. **If you are unable to see that yet, then that is your weakness which it appears you are wholeheartedly addressing.
**
This was beautifully put, and I think there’s a HUGE element of truth in this post.

And the way one guy in this thread put his problem as so extreme, it sounds like he may have issues with women in general, and not just the ones who dress inappropriately. Unless he was exaggerating, or having a particularly stressful day, it didn’t sound to me like this guy could handle being in a room with a very attractive, yet modestly-dressed woman from the way he wrote. (Don’t want to look up which post or single the guy out).

This is what can happen if you have a bad reaction to temptation. Some women are putting out the message “I’m an object” and after a while you start to buy it, and before you know it, you’ve given yourself a license to degrade them instead of pray for them.

Before men think I’m not compassionate about this problem, I’d wager that a lot of women have it too–without the temptation part. We women can also view other women as “tarts” and “objects” when we see them dressed this way (without the attraction) and acquire a distasteful perception of womanhood as a result of it. I’m not picking on men here just for the sake of it; please understand that.

It would seem to me that any man (or woman) would be a lot less understanding of men’s “weakness” if they knew another man was treating their daughter as an object like this, even despite his daughter’s poor taste in clothes. They’d know that their daughter should dress better, but they would still be upset that people didn’t see *their daughter, a person, someone who was loved, someone made in the image of God, etc.

*From everything I hear from men themselves who overcome this weakness, the first step in overcoming this is to deprogram what secular society has injected into them, because this is what happened without their realizing it. Men with such an inordinate problem with this can and should do whatever it takes to see everyone as created in the image of Jesus Christ. Temptation is one thing, but allowing one’s self to dehumanize a person because of it, is a sign of something wrong, and of an opportunity to become stronger and more charitable.

I’m sorry, I know this isn’t easy to hear, and like most cases where charity is difficult, it’s easier said than done. But I didn’t make up the rules. It’s simply what we’re supposed to do, and it can be done. St. Pelagia’s story is very appropriate here.

Some quick prayers/blessings for a person at the beginning of such a temptation seems to be a way to habituate feelings of charity and to nip this kind of thinking in the bud. I’m going to start doing that myself; I also have a tendency to having misogynistic thoughts when I see certain kinds of women. 😦

There’s a Catholic Answers radio show on overcoming p-*-r-n that has a little bit to do with this. If you’ve got some alone-time or computer headphones, maybe give the show a listen. If you can’t find it, PM me and I’ll get the URL for you.

We’ve all got our weaknesses–hang in there!
 
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puzzleannie:
In retail there is a principle that says don’t display the merchandise if it is not for sale, and its corollary, if it is on display, it is for sale.
:rotfl: Good one!

Long ago, I was visiting with the ‘ol Colonel, who was about 90 at the time, when a scantily-clad female walked by. I exclaimed, ‘Wow! What a babe. Colonel, what age are you when that stops lookin’ good to you?’ He said “Little buddy, you’ll have to ask someone who’s a lot older than I am.”

I have to agree with the poster who pointed out that today we have a ‘sexual harassment’ mentality that places all the blame on men for having what are truly natural attractions for women. Attractions that ARE, like it or not, exacerbated by provocative dress. Girls, you can beat me up all you want, but if you’re gonna ‘display the merchandise’, I’m gonna check you out. I try to lead my life as a good Catholic, I am faithful to my dear wife of many years, but I AM a sinner. Provocative female dress is the PRIMARY reason I need to celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation as often as I do.

If my child can see her favorite candy just sitting there, out in the open, she wants it, will think about it, will plan on how to get it and will think about what she’ll do with it when she gets it. If I simply remove it from plain view, all those thoughts don’t happen. I remove the temptation and those thoughts are gone. It’s just that easy.
 
I kind of joined this thread a bit late but hopefully not too late.
Maybe looking back on it -it might have been better to extend the sign of peace. However, in one of the classics Dom Scupolli “Spiritual Combat” which many of the great saints have used, it is pointed out that in most temptations you fight and pray through it but in the case of temptations of the flesh- one flees. I think if that advise is good enough for many of the saints it would be good for the rest of us. Obviously you can not flee while in Mass but maybe not turning around might have been the thing that kept you out of danger of sin. It is easy for everyone else to go back and look at a situation under optimal conditions and while not being assulted by the evil one and say it was wrong to not turn around ect. The fact is though that while temptation is going on and one is right in the middle of it we whether man or woman have to just get through it in one piece.
I don’t know who it was that said that the initial person posting the question was in sin because he did not extend the sign of peace but I have a question for them and the rest of you to consider.
If the man had turned around and extended the sign of peace and then later that day fell into serious mortal sin and repeated mortal sin and ended up loosing his family because of it who would be the victor? Christ? The man and his family? The woman in the improper attire who was clearly wrong? How many souls could have been led into the hands of the evil one if he seriously fell? To have a temptation is natural - Our Lord himself was tempted. What we do is the key. Do we dwell on the thought and even act on it or do we run to Christ.
The evil one will come at us in our most vulnerable state and hit us there when we least expect it. He is a dirty fighter and will use any means possible to get at us and cause us to fall. A example is while I was reading a good solid Catholic book it had referance to a writing by one of the fathers of the Church and a very old papal document. Now one would think you are pretty safe and free from temptation with that stuff. True. There was mention of something written in latin and I did not know what it was (my latin is poor) so I googled the words and then discovered what it was. Unfortunatly the sites that referanced the words were not so good. I quickly found myself facing temptation and ended up (at 1am mind you) taking a walk through my neighborhood silently praying my rosary. I had to flee. Thanks be to God that Our Blessed Mother got my mind off the bad stuff and on to more lofty and holy ones. Now if that could happen while reading a solid Catholic book (and not knowing how to google very well) or to this guy who was right there before Our Lord Himself then it can happen to anyone at anytime.
Maybe if she comes back and is dressed a bit more appropriatly he or even better the priest can speak with her. The thing I think we have to remember is that instead of one or even many souls being lost which could have happened God worked through the situation.
I would highly suggest to everyone -guys and gals- to read Spiritual Combat by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli and is published by Sophia Institute Press. A companion to it came out a few years ago called Spiritual Combat Revisited by Fr. Jonathon Robinson. By the way to add a bit of credance to the book (the first one) St. Francis de Sales used to carry a copy of the book with him where ever he went- so obviously it is pretty solid stuff.
Maybe next time (hopefully there will not be a next time) the guy will be able to extend the sign of peace but right now I think we should be praising and thanking God that HE (God) helped this guy get through a difficult temptation (spiritual assult if you will) so that he could serve Christ better rather than falling into the hands of the evil one.
Maybe if the woman shows up again one of the priests (or even on of the women) could have a kind but stern word with her about what is appropriate. I actually think if it came from one of the women (in charity) it would go alot further than if it came from a guy. The more solidly grounded woman could act as a mentor to the young lady and maybe even bring her into a deeper relationship with Our Lord.
Anyway, that is my thought on the subject.
 
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soccerDad:
…But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?
I think you have a point.

And it is one I am trying to subtly teach my daughters as they mature; to wit: the way in which you dress, groom and carry yourself in public sends a message. You have the abilty to shape that message–constructively or otherwise. You need to exercise that ability responsibly because the impression you create can override any other quality you may possess including intelligence, virtue, honesty, ambition, wit, creativity, etc., because people who don’t have the benefit of knowing you WILL make a judgment about you based in part on appearance that can be hard to overcome once in place.
 
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KCT:
We can’t help what thoughts pop into our heads, we can only help what we do when we realize they are there. It sounds like the man in question did his best to get rid of them and guard his eyes.

I think some females do dress to get attention, but I don’t believe they realize quite how hard it is for men when they do. Since women are not as visually aroused, they may not understand what it’s like for a man.

My 19 yr old daughter recently had to explain to a room full of Confirmation candidates (and their parents) why it was imprudent to dress immodestly on the Confirmation retreat. They even held a mock fashion show about what to wear and what not to wear. If the girls are scantily dressed, our youth minister will give them a big, ugly moo- moo to wear. —KCT
Yes, that is what I meant. It is the mans fault if he allows the thoughts to grow. He can either push them out of his mind or let them grow.
 
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