Lust: his fault or hers?

[4carmel]

I think Jimmy had it right.
I thought on my way back from Mass this eve about the young lady though. I say this with out knowing who she is or even where obviously. For a young woman (or a young man) in today’s culture to even go to Mass much less on a weekday shows that she is trying to serve Christ as best as she can. I would imagine that she may not even know what is appropriate or not. That is where a good solid Catholic woman could step in with charity and encourage her to make some better choices in dress. I am a guy so I can not speak about how women think but I know as I was making the process of conversion into the Church there were quite a few things I did not know. My gosh I still have to hit the books and the encyclicals constantly. I hope what happens in this young lady’s case is that someone pulls her aside in humility and charity and lets her know what is correct and what is not. If it is handled properly this young woman could go on to fall in love with the Church and with Our Lord even more and become a devout mother and wife or a nun and become either way a great saint of God. My concern would be if it was not handled correctly that rather than coming to daily Mass in improper attire she would give up on God altogether. I know there have been certain people in my own journey home that handled things with great paitence and charity and because of that my love for the Church overflows.
Maybe the guy next time will have a bit more streagth to overcome and maybe God uses our weakness to help us not be a bit too proud. At least I know He does that with me. Either way I think it would not hurt in all the parishes to have a solid catechisis program and even little inserts in the bulletin that are solidly grounded.
I think finally, sorry folks, when dealing with either person we need to remember the words of Mother Angelica “We are all called to be great Saints”. I think if we apply that to the way we deal with anyone- even the person who comes to Mass dressed improperly then we are part way there to enabling the person to seek the face of God. I wonder what Mother would do and I think she after Mass would pull the woman aside and say something like “sweetheart I want you to be here and so does Our Lord but you are leading souls to hell including your own with those ???” Of course not everyone can pull off what Mother could get way with.

 

[cynic]

are people here actually suggesting that all physical attraction is sin? because that’s what it sounds like.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

cynic:

are people here actually suggesting that all physical attraction is sin? because that’s what it sounds like.

How on earth do you come up with these things?

Physical attraction is not sin. What we ***do ***about that natural reaction can be sinful.

Malia

 

[cynic]

Feanaro's Wife:

How on earth do you come up with these things?

Physical attraction is not sin. What we ***do ***about that natural reaction can be sinful.

Malia

the tone of some of the previouse posts would seem to suggest that if you are attracted physically, lets say to your spouse for arguments sake, and you THINK about that and are aroused by that (is this going to be banned?) then that is a sin. Ie arousal should be entirely platonic, based solely on a spiritual yearning. You can’t have both - think about the physical and still acknowledge them as a person.

 

[4carmel]

Physical attraction between a husband and wife or potential spouses ect. is natural. I guess that general physical attraction in general between a man and a woman is one thing but the key is when and where and what is appropriate. It is a big step from physical attraction to sin in thought and then in deed. I guess the same could be said if I was irritated at the guy who ran in to my new car (which happen a few weeks ago by the way) to be irritated in that context ok- to wish harm on the other or call names or get out of my car and hurt someone well then a line has been crossed somewhere along the line. I think the big thing is to exercise prudence and the reasoning ability that God gave us. We can over analize this poor guy to the grave though- gosh I do that with myself in what one wise person called navel gazing (inwardly looking to much). The original question did not deal with this guy looking at his wife but at a woman who should have exercised a bit of prudence in wearing certain things to Mass. I think he did what he thought was prudent at the time- maybe I am wrong. Another thing I brought up in a earlier post is that if abstaining from turning around, which more than likely made the fellow unconfortable anyway and is out of character I would imagine, kept this guy from sin with a woman who was NOT his wife then good. If it was his wife he was having attraction thoughts to it would not be a sin. Maybe not prudent in Mass yes but the woman was not his wife and he is married and needed to preserve his soul (or thought he needed to at the time). Prudence is the key word here.

 

[jimmy]

cynic:

the tone of some of the previouse posts would seem to suggest that if you are attracted physically, lets say to your spouse for arguments sake, and you THINK about that and are aroused by that (is this going to be banned?) then that is a sin. Ie arousal should be entirely platonic, based solely on a spiritual yearning. You can’t have both - think about the physical and still acknowledge them as a person.

No, that is not what is being suggested by anyone. What is being said is that lust is a sin as Jesus said, “If you lust after a woman in your heart you have already committed adultery.” There is no sin in being attracted physically to your wife, but when it turns lustful, it is a sin. For me to think degrading things about a woman, even and especially if she is my wife, then I have sinned greatly. The physical attraction should only be a part of the love between the two.

 

[4carmel]

Good for you Jimmy! Hang in there! I think I am done with this for the night- just got back from Adoration and I need to enjoy the grace rather than do any more cyber navel gazing on this. I think you did the prudent thing and hopefully now the young lady will by coming to Mass next time dressed appropratly. Maybe next time I spend a hour with Our Lord the prudent thing for me to do though is ask for the grace to spell properly. Take care my friends that is all on this subject for the time for me.

 

[ChristianWAB]

soccerDad:

I had a problem at daily mass yesterday. A young woman came to church in skin tight spandex shorts. You know, the kind that leaves nothing a mystery, not with pads like the biking shorts.

Well, I could not even turn around during our sign of peace. I think she was offended, but I have trouble as it is, keeping my thoughts on holy ground so-to-speak. I come to church to receive the sacrament, and be strenthened for these kind of challenges the rest of the week. I take fidelity to my wife seriously. The safest avenue for me is to remove the temptation. I am offended by slinky cocktail dresses at church. Is it not enough that I am continually assaulted by sexual images from every media outlet? Must I be confronted with it at church also? Have mercy women, I am only a man! Are there no modest venues left? What is the priest thinking when she comes to communion?

Should I have said something? When I have tried to mention anything about this type of thing before, it always ends up that I am the prude, or the lecher. I should get over my holier-than-thou attitude. Or, I should not be so lustful. What are you doing looking there anyway? Blah, blah, blah. Why do men always look at my chest? Could it be because you have dressed it up like a thanksgiving turkey?! Aaah! This kind of thinking infuriates me.

So, is it his fault, or is it hers? I realize there are instances of both. But I also think, women in america and europe have completely lost perspective, and irrationally absolve themselves of any responsibility. And more, I often detect a certain adolescent, malicious glee in the prideful and sometimes scandalous display, glazed with real, feigned, or dilusional, innocence. Why does no-one talk about this?

Believe me, you are not a prude or stuffy or anything else. I feel you have every reason to be upset about women wearing scandalous clothes to church. Sure, we men must learn to control our baser instincts, but women who dress provocatively are not nearly as innocent as they attempt to portray themselves. It’s just flat-out inappropriate to go to church dressed like you’re ready to hit the nightclubs.

 

[Katie1723]

Lust is just as much the fault of the “looker” as the “lookee”
~ Kathy ~

 

[Fidelis]

Katie1723:

Lust is just as much the fault of the “looker” as the “lookee”
~ Kathy ~

In a sense that is true, but it doesn’t fully take into account the reality of concupisence and the responsibility we have of not being the cause of sin to others:

**407 ** The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”. Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”. This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.

**409 ** This dramatic situation of “the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one” makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

**2285 ** Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to “social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible.” This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger, or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. “Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!”

 

[Orionthehunter]

If I sin, just as God didn’t accept Adam’s wimpy, sophomoric “she made me do it” excuse, I am 100% accountable for my sin.

If I lust after a woman, I sin. It doesn’t matter whether she is wearing the clothing of a harlot or just well fitting jeans and nice blouse.

When I see girls/women wearing clothes to Mass more fitting of a nightclub than a place of worship, I pray for her to gain the cardinal virtues of prudence and temperance in her dress. I don’t ascribe to her sinful intent as in trying to tempt me or anyone else to lust after her. I attribute nearly all inappropriate dress to the confusion caused by our culture. In an age when female leaders at a nationally renowned college don’t see the distinction in wearing flip flops to the beach or the White House, it is easy to understand how some girls without any ill-intent would dress inappropriately for Mass. And, unless I directly know the females intent was sinful, it is hard for me to attribute concupisence to someone coming to worship at Mass and much more likely a situation of confusion about what is appropriate Sunday-best attire.

It is a good thing for girls/women to be proud of their feminity. It is in the complementarity of feminity and masculinity that we are made in God’s image. Unfortunately, some females haven’t either the counsel or taken the time to discern how their dress might discredit their feminity and not highlight their feminity.

So much of the discussion of “modesty” for girls seems to only leave room for baggy pants and baggy t-shirts. Anything else is deemed provacative. Last Easter, my daughter (h.s. junior at the time) and my wife selected for her a dress w/ jacket top, lime green and other pastels, lace, etc. The length of the dress came to the top of her knees. When she came up the stairs before we went out, she was a beautiful, very feminine young woman. As she had been usually disposed to wearing tomboy type clothes, I was very pleased at how feminine and comfortable she was in her feminity as a testament to her budding womanhood.

Our Priest and several members of the Parish noticed the change and complimented her after the Mass. One noted it was her own Resurrection! Trust me this was a profound change in attire for my daughter! While in the back of my mind dad was lamenting that his baby girl was becoming a woman, I was still pleased that she is moving into another stage of being the woman God made her to be.

Then it happened, a well-intended but overly scrupulous lady came up to her and in front of others including our Deacon and said that her dress sent the wrong "signals to the young boys she should be protecting, not tantalizing) and she expected better from her and us (her parents). My daughter was in tears in an instant. She can’t help it she is tall, has nice legs toned from years of being a tomboy and sports, and is pretty but these are traits she shouldn’t be ashamed of. We haven’t seen her in a dress since.

My point is that everyone has different expectations of modesty. Sometimes the line is considered crossed by nearly everyone. In those cases, prayer for prudence and temperance is appropriate and possibly correction by a person with whom the “subject” would recieve the correction in teh spirit intended. But in so many cases, the lines are gray and it does harm to assume that the girl is complicit to the inappropriateness and to judge her in any way is not our place. Leave the judging to God but in all cases, we give Jesus the greatest glory when we find Him in those we have to look the hardest and we upset him if we blame the woman as Adam upset him when he blamed Eve.

In short, the OP needs to attend to the plank in his eye.

 

[Orionthehunter]

dulcissima:

That is about actual prostitution, not clueless dressing. Quite a difference. I doubt very much the woman who attended daily mass with the OP was actually a harlot.

And actually, if she was a harlot, it should be time of celebrating as who better needs the redemptive message than Christ but one living in such sin (hopefully she didn’t recieve the Eucharist but did get a blessing and pray for a spiritual communion). Christ was chastised because he spent time w/ tax collectors and prostitutes.

 

[Fidelis]

Orionthehunter:

And, unless I directly know the females intent was sinful, it is hard for me to attribute concupisence to someone coming to worship at Mass and much more likely a situation of confusion about what is appropriate Sunday-best attire…

Just to clarify–because in this discussion the terms are critical to understand–, concupiscence is not something someone else does that could lead us to sin–that is called scandal, which is defined above.

Concupiscence, on the other hand, is something that is within a person that gives him or her an inclination to certain sins–it is sometimes called a sin nature. It is something that everyone has at one level or another as a result of original sin. There is no way to remove it, only to* battle* it and try to overcome it. Even so, it is with a person their whole lives.

**2515 ** Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the “spirit.” Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.

**2516 ** Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:

For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of submission (in the first case) or of resistance (in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the Apostle writes: “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

Here is a helpful article from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

 

[manualman]

I think some of the women need some help understanding the man’s experience.

For the record, everyone is responsible for their own behavior. Everyone.

But, I think I have stumbled on an anaolgy that may help SOME women ‘get it.’ Imagine it is that ‘certain time’ of the month. You get out of your car to go into a store, walk in front of a candy store and are HIT with a POWERFUL scent of molten chocolate.

Now, do you:
A. Think to yourself, Hey! that’s chocolate. I LIKE chocolate. I think I’ll enjoy this smell a moment.
OR
B. Your nostrils flare. Your head goes light. A warm, floaty feeling pervades your stomache. You WANT SOME!

Don’t get me wrong. It is NOT the same thing. But I get the impression that some women don’t quite understand the depths to which men are wired for visual sexual attraction and revert to their own sexual world-view for comparison.

When the voluptuous receptionist with three undone buttons reaches for the pencil she dropped, there is quite simply no time to remind yourself that she is a unique creation of God, precious to Him and meant for only one man. Thinking doesn’t get involved. Only emotional and hormonal response.

What a man DOES about it after the immediate reaction is over he is culpable for. What he FEELS at that moment is no more in his control than the woman who whiffs that choclate smell!

Believe me. It is an act of mercy to use those blouse buttons.

 

[wcknight]

Somewhere between the skimpy outfits and a full scale burka is the proper dress for young women.

When we attend mass we are there to worship the Lord, some folks appear as if their primary purpose is to attract a mate.

Putting on your Sunday best is a long lost art, what I find more offensive is folks who come in with cut off shorts and tee shirt and no socks or casual sandals.

People can dress casually and still look neat and tidy.

I suppose that it is better for them to take the time and show up rather than miss mass altogether. I know these folks have better clothes because I see them with jacket and tie when they come off work. They are not homeless or destitute but they come dressed as if they are.

Even shorts, tee shirt, and tennis shoes can look nice if pressed and tucked.

 

[dulcissima]

Orionthehunter:

If I sin, just as God didn’t accept Adam’s wimpy, sophomoric “she made me do it” excuse, I am 100% accountable for my sin.

If I lust after a woman, I sin. It doesn’t matter whether she is wearing the clothing of a harlot or just well fitting jeans and nice blouse.

When I see girls/women wearing clothes to Mass more fitting of a nightclub than a place of worship, I pray for her to gain the cardinal virtues of prudence and temperance in her dress. I don’t ascribe to her sinful intent as in trying to tempt me or anyone else to lust after her. I attribute nearly all inappropriate dress to the confusion caused by our culture. In an age when female leaders at a nationally renowned college don’t see the distinction in wearing flip flops to the beach or the White House, it is easy to understand how some girls without any ill-intent would dress inappropriately for Mass. And, unless I directly know the females intent was sinful, it is hard for me to attribute concupisence to someone coming to worship at Mass and much more likely a situation of confusion about what is appropriate Sunday-best attire.

It is a good thing for girls/women to be proud of their feminity. It is in the complementarity of feminity and masculinity that we are made in God’s image. Unfortunately, some females haven’t either the counsel or taken the time to discern how their dress might discredit their feminity and not highlight their feminity.

So much of the discussion of “modesty” for girls seems to only leave room for baggy pants and baggy t-shirts. Anything else is deemed provacative. Last Easter, my daughter (h.s. junior at the time) and my wife selected for her a dress w/ jacket top, lime green and other pastels, lace, etc. The length of the dress came to the top of her knees. When she came up the stairs before we went out, she was a beautiful, very feminine young woman. As she had been usually disposed to wearing tomboy type clothes, I was very pleased at how feminine and comfortable she was in her feminity as a testament to her budding womanhood.

Our Priest and several members of the Parish noticed the change and complimented her after the Mass. One noted it was her own Resurrection! Trust me this was a profound change in attire for my daughter! While in the back of my mind dad was lamenting that his baby girl was becoming a woman, I was still pleased that she is moving into another stage of being the woman God made her to be.

Then it happened, a well-intended but overly scrupulous lady came up to her and in front of others including our Deacon and said that her dress sent the wrong "signals to the young boys she should be protecting, not tantalizing) and she expected better from her and us (her parents). My daughter was in tears in an instant. She can’t help it she is tall, has nice legs toned from years of being a tomboy and sports, and is pretty but these are traits she shouldn’t be ashamed of. We haven’t seen her in a dress since.

My point is that everyone has different expectations of modesty. Sometimes the line is considered crossed by nearly everyone. In those cases, prayer for prudence and temperance is appropriate and possibly correction by a person with whom the “subject” would recieve the correction in teh spirit intended. But in so many cases, the lines are gray and it does harm to assume that the girl is complicit to the inappropriateness and to judge her in any way is not our place. Leave the judging to God but in all cases, we give Jesus the greatest glory when we find Him in those we have to look the hardest and we upset him if we blame the woman as Adam upset him when he blamed Eve.

In short, the OP needs to attend to the plank in his eye.

Good personal story, Orion. Thanks for sharing it. It’s nice to hear the other side of the story.

Just out of curiosity, because of your name “Orionthehunter”, you aren’t by any chance a P3 pilot are you?

 

[caroljm36]

I would add this to the Dennis Prager articles above

opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110007288

I can’t speak to the men’s problem, but what no one acknowledges is that with the free-and-easy attitude toward fornication, Sex and the City and all that, it’s a race to the bottom for any women to get noticed, so now they’re all trying to outdo one another. When the other gal will wear (and do) anything, what can you do but get down and dirtier?

It’s just competition, and we all lose eventually.

 

[migurl]

manualman:

I think some of the women need some help understanding the man’s experience.

For the record, everyone is responsible for their own behavior. Everyone.

But, I think I have stumbled on an anaolgy that may help SOME women ‘get it.’ Imagine it is that ‘certain time’ of the month. You get out of your car to go into a store, walk in front of a candy store and are HIT with a POWERFUL scent of molten chocolate.

Now, do you:
A. Think to yourself, Hey! that’s chocolate. I LIKE chocolate. I think I’ll enjoy this smell a moment.
OR
B. Your nostrils flare. Your head goes light. A warm, floaty feeling pervades your stomache. You WANT SOME!

Don’t get me wrong. It is NOT the same thing. But I get the impression that some women don’t quite understand the depths to which men are wired for visual sexual attraction and revert to their own sexual world-view for comparison.

When the voluptuous receptionist with three undone buttons reaches for the pencil she dropped, there is quite simply no time to remind yourself that she is a unique creation of God, precious to Him and meant for only one man. Thinking doesn’t get involved. Only emotional and hormonal response.

What a man DOES about it after the immediate reaction is over he is culpable for. What he FEELS at that moment is no more in his control than the woman who whiffs that choclate smell!

Believe me. It is an act of mercy to use those blouse buttons.

That is so true!!! I used to get (ok, I still kinda do sometimes) get really uptight w/ my fiance about girls. Now, to him, he was just being nice and polite, but I being female understood that when an attractive guy (taken or not) is nice and dances with me or smiles at me, I am going to think something might be going on. I explained it to him and he understood. Now, I know he notices when a woman is attractive just like I notice when a man is attractive, but because we have discussed what we believe is not ok behavior, we are so much more comfy. In fact, since we have gotten engaged, it is so much easier for him to talk to women because they all know and are always asking about me and the wedding date. For me its different b/c guys at my school take the ring on my finger as some sort of challenge. Go figure.

 

[migurl]

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Men have hormones and they are stong, but if they are strong in faith and love for God (and signifigant other) they will fight those feelings and thoughts and walk away. I say congrats to those men out there who have remained chaste in such a sex-driven world. And shame on you women who dress like your body is for sale to the highest bidder. Have respect for your body and others weaknesses, it’s just as rude as holding a bottle of alcohol in front of a recovering alcoholic. Shame shame shame.

 

[retiredgrampa]

Apparently, I am much more fortunate than my friends here. I belong to a traditional Catholic Church, Latin and all. I have no worry about what women wear at Mass because outside of the church are two large signs near the entrances outlining what type of clothing may NOT be worn and what clothing is acceptable. To back it up, a lady monitors outside, and if a man or woman is inappropriately dressed, he/she is turned back, and there are ushers inside to inforce this. TOO STRICT? Our Priest constantly reinforces that our church is the House of God. Respect for His house is therefore mandatory. Pant suits for women and blue jeans for men are out. Even the small children are well dressed. BTW, head coverings for women and girls is still
“in” in my parish.