Lust & Marriage

[prayforwisdom]

1. What exactly is lust?
2. Is there such a thing as lust between husband and wife? Or is lust only found outside of marriage?
3. If there is such a thing as lust between husband and wife:

• Is it sinful for a husband to lust after his wife (or to act in a lustful way towards her) and a wife to lust after her husband (or to act in a lustful way towards him)?
• What would be considered lustful between a husband and wife?

 

[I_A]

Lust is the disordered desire or inordinate enjoyment to of sexual pleasure. (CCC 2351)

It is a sin for a husband and wife to lust after each other, for example to think of each other as sex objects. One of the first consequence of Adam’s fall was to disorder the relationship between man and woman, they immedately recognized the lust in themselves and in their spouse and sewed for themselves loincloths out of fig leaves.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Lust is the disordered desire or inordinate enjoyment to of sexual pleasure. (CCC 2351)QUOTE]

This definition has always puzzled me. I understand what it means - and why it’s wrong - to objectify and merely “use” the other person for selfish pleasure, but what is the definition - what is the “yardstick” - with which to measure “inordinate enjoyment” of relations within marriage?

Does “inordinate enjoyment” mean a marital act lasting longer than “X” minutes? More than 1 orgasm per partner? Relations more than “X” times per week? Relations taking place somewhere other than the bedroom, in the dark? Assuming non-contraceptive and mutually-agreeable relations, how does a couple know when they’re reaching the “inordinate” point? And where are these guidelines published? A mindset of “Gee, are we enjoying this too much?” seems to put a heavy burden on what should be a loving, joyful, unitive act - conjures up an image of God in the corner of the bedroom with an “enjoyment” radar gun, waiting to see if a couple goes over the “limit.” I’m not disagreeing with the CCC - just seeking a workable definition and guideline, which I have never seen anywhere.

Extra points - and thanks - to forum members who can provide some insight into this by citing magisterial documents and WITHOUT citing Christopher West.

 

[Atreyu]

This definition has always puzzled me. I understand what it means - and why it’s wrong - to objectify and merely “use” the other person for selfish pleasure, but what is the definition - what is the “yardstick” - with which to measure “inordinate enjoyment” of relations within marriage?

Does “inordinate enjoyment” mean a marital act lasting longer than “X” minutes? More than 1 orgasm per partner? Relations more than “X” times per week? Relations taking place somewhere other than the bedroom, in the dark? Assuming non-contraceptive and mutually-agreeable relations, how does a couple know when they’re reaching the “inordinate” point? And where are these guidelines published? A mindset of “Gee, are we enjoying this too much?” seems to put a heavy burden on what should be a loving, joyful, unitive act - conjures up an image of God in the corner of the bedroom with an “enjoyment” radar gun, waiting to see if a couple goes over the “limit.” I’m not disagreeing with the CCC - just seeking a workable definition and guideline, which I have never seen anywhere.

Extra points - and thanks - to forum members who can provide some insight into this by citing magisterial documents and WITHOUT citing Christopher West.

I would just say that objectively, all of the things you mention are permissible and not sinful per se. I think that the answer is we must use our prudence. If we are spending so much time in relations that we get fired from our jobs for example, then I think this would qualify as going too far. Certainly if we were to use contraception then this would also qualify as lust.

Compare it to eating. We can eat anything, and as much as we want and it’s fine. But if we eat so much that we overstep the line of gluttony, then that is a sin. But where exactly is that line? Again, we must use our prudence and that is pretty much it! The Church cannot impose rationing on people’s eating habits. But I would suggest that Western society as a whole today overindulges with food as much as they do with sex.

This is all just my opinion, so no extra points for me…

 

[rwoehmke]

Inordinate might be to be so wrapped up in having sex that the other obligations of the married state are being neglected. I don’t see it as applying to how much a couple might enjoy and take pleasure from a normal act of lovemaking.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I heard someone describe all too many marriages as “sibling rivalries”.

And someone said that marriage is supposed to be fun. Enjoyable.

And Jesus said that men and women are supposed to leave their parents and become one flesh.

One flesh.

Complete intertwining. As close as it is humanly possible to get. Physical. Mental. Psychological. To the exclusion of all others.

So I guess as long as the husband and wife come up for air periodically, then they are actually engaging in the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

[sullivan1213]

I_A_;1611799:

Lust is the disordered desire or inordinate enjoyment to of sexual pleasure. (CCC 2351)QUOTE]

This definition has always puzzled me. I understand what it means - and why it’s wrong - to objectify and merely “use” the other person for selfish pleasure, but what is the definition - what is the “yardstick” - with which to measure “inordinate enjoyment” of relations within marriage?

Does “inordinate enjoyment” mean a marital act lasting longer than “X” minutes? More than 1 orgasm per partner? Relations more than “X” times per week? Relations taking place somewhere other than the bedroom, in the dark? Assuming non-contraceptive and mutually-agreeable relations, how does a couple know when they’re reaching the “inordinate” point? And where are these guidelines published? A mindset of “Gee, are we enjoying this too much?” seems to put a heavy burden on what should be a loving, joyful, unitive act - conjures up an image of God in the corner of the bedroom with an “enjoyment” radar gun, waiting to see if a couple goes over the “limit.” I’m not disagreeing with the CCC - just seeking a workable definition and guideline, which I have never seen anywhere.

Extra points - and thanks - to forum members who can provide some insight into this by citing magisterial documents and WITHOUT citing Christopher West.

I don’t think that the Church used the phrase “inordinate enjoyment” to mean “too much fun.” In this case, I would take the word “inordinate” to mean disordered. A good example would be premarital sex. That is inordinate or disordered because it places the desire for sexual pleasure above the desire to please and obey God. Whenever we place something ahead of God on our list of priorities we are enjoying it inordinately.
If God gives us something very pleasureable to be used as a gift between sppouses and, instead of viewing it as such, we seek it as an end in itself, then we are acting out of lust.
Lust has nothing to do with how good sex feels to our senses. It has to do with the disposition of our hearts when we engage in it.
That’s my $.02 anyway.

God bless

 

[Atreyu]

I don’t think that the Church used the phrase “inordinate enjoyment” to mean “too much fun.” In this case, I would take the word “inordinate” to mean disordered. A good example would be premarital sex. That is inordinate or disordered because it places the desire for sexual pleasure above the desire to please and obey God. Whenever we place something ahead of God on our list of priorities we are enjoying it inordinately.
If God gives us something very pleasureable to be used as a gift between sppouses and, instead of viewing it as such, we seek it as an end in itself, then we are acting out of lust.
Lust has nothing to do with how good sex feels to our senses. It has to do with the disposition of our hearts when we engage in it.
That’s my $.02 anyway.

God bless

Fantastic post! Welcome to the forums

 

[angiejauregui]

Okay, I need to ask somebody this question, but I don’t know how best to word it, so here I go…

My husband has always had hefty needs when it comes to our physical relationship. He has this idea that because we are married anything goes. He thinks that because he feels like it and asks of me I will give because I love him. But there are some things that I have recently read which are sinful. He has come to understand this but still jokes about them. He refers to our love making as me giving him something. When there is nothing, ie, the 2 year old was wired till 11pm and I fell asleep, he reminds me that I didn’t give him anything. I feel bad. I feel pressured. I love being with him, but with 6 kids, doesn’t always happen. The other part of this is that he is always touching my breasts, butt, etc,. when he thinks no one is looking. I have to admit feeling a little objectified, he always defends himself saying that’s not true. I don’t always feel he cares about my feelings, because when he talks about our physical relationship, he’ll make a remark like, “I know you don’t like to do it.” Which isn’t true. I just like being an active part of it and I don’t feel like I always am. If I mention this he gets very offended. So then I resort to not talking about it, but I start feeling like I am really stressed out about it. Note: my husband has seen a doctor and is probably Bipolar @ or spectrum, I have noticed that he may also have some form of adult autism. He doesn’t do porn, and he has never cheated on me, and says he only wants to do it with me. But I can’t caress his arm when he’s read to go again. It seems like everything I do makes him want to do it, unless I or the kids has made him mad, then he can’t look at me.

Help!

 

[Good_Daughter]

I_A_;1611799:

Lust is the disordered desire or inordinate enjoyment to of sexual pleasure. (CCC 2351)QUOTE]

This definition has always puzzled me. I understand what it means - and why it’s wrong - to objectify and merely “use” the other person for selfish pleasure, but what is the definition - what is the “yardstick” - with which to measure “inordinate enjoyment” of relations within marriage?

The first purpose of sex is procreation (babies) and the second is unity (bonding, the one-flesh union).

Pleasure is a wonderful by-product of sex that lets us know we’re doing things right.

The minute we start trying to make pleasure the purpose of sex, something it was never meant to be, we’re headed for trouble (ie. lust, inordinate enjoyment).

The difference in practical terms is having a spouse who says, “I want to have sex with you because it’s good and enjoyable” (which is healthy), vs. a spouse who says, “I want to enjoy myself and the way I choose to do that is by having sex with you” (which is unhealthy).

Does that help at all?

 

[GraceDK]

1. What exactly is lust?
2. Is there such a thing as lust between husband and wife? Or is lust only found outside of marriage?
3. If there is such a thing as lust between husband and wife:

• Is it sinful for a husband to lust after his wife (or to act in a lustful way towards her) and a wife to lust after her husband (or to act in a lustful way towards him)?
• What would be considered lustful between a husband and wife?

Sex is a very INTERESTING part of marriage…
I don’t think there is any woman on this forum who does not wish that her husband desires her sexually… Desires her… to have sex as a communication of love and great attraction … this kind of desire and pleasure is not sinful.
I see lust, on the other hand, as a pattern of thinking where a person is seperated from her body … wanted solely as a body and not as a person.

 

[iaskquestions]

1. Is there such a thing as lust between husband and wife? Or is lust only found outside of marriage?

Yes, there can be.

1. If there is such a thing as lust between husband and wife:

• Is it sinful for a husband to lust after his wife (or to act in a lustful way towards her) and a wife to lust after her husband (or to act in a lustful way towards him)?

Yes,** it is sinful for a husband to lust after his wife**.

“…that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, **not in the passion of lust **like heathen who do not know God…” (1 Thess 4:4-5)

 

[drafdog]

Read the Song of Songs. This describes the passionate love between a man and a woman. But it is a holy book, which means that the church approves of this kind of passion between them. Yes, you can feel great passion toward your spouse; God approves and rejoices with you in it.

Matthew

 

[puzzleannie]

1. What exactly is lust?

Disordered desire for sexual activity and contact

Yes lust can occur on the part of husband or wife for each other.
example:
A husband who loves his wife only or primarily for her physical attractiveness and sexuality and sexual relations with her. When in the natural course of aging her outward physical attributes diminish in his estimation he loses interest in her and seeks a younger more attractive woman. His initial regard for his wife was based in large part on lust.

A spouse refuses to limit or refrain from sexual activity during a time when relations would be unwise or dangerous due to threat to the health of the partner. The husband insists on using contraception when the wife cannot become pregnant due to a medical problem so that his sexual enjoyment is not disrupted. He is viewing her lustfully, placing his pleasure above her well-being.

A wife disparages her husbands sexual performance in front of her friends. She is reducing him to an object and ignoring his human dignity.

 

[Predikant]

1. What exactly is lust?
2. Is there such a thing as lust between husband and wife? Or is lust only found outside of marriage?
3. If there is such a thing as lust between husband and wife:

• Is it sinful for a husband to lust after his wife (or to act in a lustful way towards her) and a wife to lust after her husband (or to act in a lustful way towards him)?
• What would be considered lustful between a husband and wife?

Lust exist also in marriage, offcourse. Lust does not stop to be lust just because you in a marriage.

It is not lust if you have sex for the sole reason to raise Godly children for God. If sex was made out of lust and it resulted in pregnancy, then it was still lust and a mortal sin because you had lust rather than love in your heart. Its only without sin if you before you had sex had in mind to raise a child for God, and had sex with the intention of love and not of lust and of fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

If you have sex, not for the reason to raise Children but for fulfiling your desires, then it is lust and a mortal sin. If you do not want to have children then you must live in chastity. If you have children and wants no more children, then you must live in chastity.

Anyway, here what God has to say about this:

www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 26
www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 9

 

[Catholictrain]

Okay, I need to ask somebody this question, but I don’t know how best to word it, so here I go…

My husband has always had hefty needs when it comes to our physical relationship. He has this idea that because we are married anything goes. He thinks that because he feels like it and asks of me I will give because I love him. But there are some things that I have recently read which are sinful. He has come to understand this but still jokes about them. He refers to our love making as me giving him something. When there is nothing, ie, the 2 year old was wired till 11pm and I fell asleep, he reminds me that I didn’t give him anything. I feel bad. I feel pressured. I love being with him, but with 6 kids, doesn’t always happen. The other part of this is that he is always touching my breasts, butt, etc,. when he thinks no one is looking. I have to admit feeling a little objectified, he always defends himself saying that’s not true. I don’t always feel he cares about my feelings, because when he talks about our physical relationship, he’ll make a remark like, “I know you don’t like to do it.” Which isn’t true. I just like being an active part of it and I don’t feel like I always am. If I mention this he gets very offended. So then I resort to not talking about it, but I start feeling like I am really stressed out about it. Note: my husband has seen a doctor and is probably Bipolar @ or spectrum, I have noticed that he may also have some form of adult autism. He doesn’t do porn, and he has never cheated on me, and says he only wants to do it with me. But I can’t caress his arm when he’s read to go again. It seems like everything I do makes him want to do it, unless I or the kids has made him mad, then he can’t look at me.

Help!

Just a guess here, but it is very possible that your husband is struggling with living in an oversexed world and trying to remain faithful to his wife … but not really understanding why what he does is wrong or hurtful. After a day at the office (or whereever he works) where he sees the young women who dress with way too little clothing… or passes by the water cooler and hears the gossip of who is cheating on whom… well quite frankly it makes it hard for a man to remain chaste. You need to talk to your husband about how it makes you feel and why you need more RESPECT from him. At the same time you need to be patient with him as long as he is not asking you for anything that degrades you or makes you feel less than you are… a special child of God. I recommend talking this over with a priest or ask your priest for the name of a counselor. Do not just let this pass… you need to talk… he needs to understand.

 

[Tracy10]

My feelings are that lust is simply sexual attraction between individuals, and yes, there is GENERALLY lust between husband and wife, at least at first, and more often by the husband for his wife than vice versa unfortunately.

If two people lust for each other simultaneously I believe that’s the healthiest relationship that could ever be attained. I don’t at all believe it’s a sin for a married person to lust for the spouse. In fact, provided it’s also accompanied by plenty of spiritual feeling, courtesy, and respect, I can’t imagine anything being more beautiful.

If God didn’t give us bodies that would make us desire each other in that way, he wouldn’t have given us sex hormones.

---

1. What exactly is lust?
2. Is there such a thing as lust between husband and wife? Or is lust only found outside of marriage?
3. If there is such a thing as lust between husband and wife:

• Is it sinful for a husband to lust after his wife (or to act in a lustful way towards her) and a wife to lust after her husband (or to act in a lustful way towards him)?
• What would be considered lustful between a husband and wife?

 

[Augustine]

My feelings are that lust is simply sexual attraction between individuals, and yes, there is GENERALLY lust between husband and wife, at least at first, and more often by the husband for his wife than vice versa unfortunately.

Indeed, if one understands lust in this sense. But the dictionary definition of lust is slightly different, highlighting its compulsive aspect, what the Church rightly calls inordinate:
**1. ** Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.
**2. **

**a. ** An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
**b. ** Intense eagerness or enthusiasm: a lust for life.

​

 

[Predikant]

My feelings are that lust is simply sexual attraction between individuals, and yes, there is GENERALLY lust between husband and wife, at least at first, and more often by the husband for his wife than vice versa unfortunately.

If two people lust for each other simultaneously I believe that’s the healthiest relationship that could ever be attained. I don’t at all believe it’s a sin for a married person to lust for the spouse. In fact, provided it’s also accompanied by plenty of spiritual feeling, courtesy, and respect, I can’t imagine anything being more beautiful.

If God didn’t give us bodies that would make us desire each other in that way, he wouldn’t have given us sex hormones.

---

Listen to what God has to say about this, him you should follow.

www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 26
www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 9
www.saintbirgitta.com - book 7, chapter 27

Any one that desire to find real truth from God, must read and follow what is said, since what God say is what lead to life.