Lust?

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DL82

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Most of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious, I know when I’ve committed adultery or fornication, or when I’ve told a lie.

The 9th and 10th commandments really puzzle and scare me. What does it mean to ‘covet’ someone? Do I have to fully intend to have sex with someone, and take steps to make it happen, or do I just need to dwell on a sinful thought for a moment?

I’m thinking in particular of the Shepherd of Hermas:
"1:2 After a certain time I saw her bathing in the river Tiber; and I gave her my hand, and led her out of the river. So, seeing her beauty, I reasoned in my heart, saying, “Happy were I, if I had such an one to wife both in beauty and in character.” I merely reflected on this and nothing more. "
"1:8 "Laughing she saith unto me, “The desire after evil entered into thine heart. Nay, thinkest thou not that it is an evil deed for a righteous man, if the evil desire should enter into his heart? It is indeed a sin and a great one too,” saith she; "for the righteous man entertaineth righteous purposes. While then his purposes are righteous, his repute stands steadfast in the heavens, and he finds the Lord easily propitiated in all that he does. But they that entertain evil purposes in their hearts, bring upon themselves death an captivity, especially they that claim for themselves this present work and boast in its riches, and cleave not to the good things that are to come. "

If this is all that is needed to descend into Mortal Sin, who can possibly stay in a state of grace? I know I have thoughts like this or worse every day.
 
hi there DL82 it seems to me that the book The Shepard of Hermas was rejected outright(ie it contained heritical writings) when the canon of the NT was being formed.i could be wrong on that though…in the quote the thought was temptation,the reflecting on it though for a moment was the sin,i think.note what the reflection was we do not know.iow yes that would be good if it were to happen. but if the reflection was like this no i would not want her,then no sin would have happened…from what i understand to covet,is desire an object as if it should have been yours and was taken from you.ie if she wasn’t married to him then she would be my wife it is his’s fault she is not mine kinda sorta like.
 
DL82 said:
Most of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious, I know when I’ve committed adultery or fornication, or when I’ve told a lie.

The 9th and 10th commandments really puzzle and scare me. What does it mean to ‘covet’ someone? Do I have to fully intend to have sex with someone, and take steps to make it happen, or do I just need to dwell on a sinful thought for a moment?

I’m thinking in particular of the Shepherd of Hermas:
"1:2 After a certain time I saw her bathing in the river Tiber; and I gave her my hand, and led her out of the river. So, seeing her beauty, I reasoned in my heart, saying, “Happy were I, if I had such an one to wife both in beauty and in character.” I merely reflected on this and nothing more. "
"1:8 "Laughing she saith unto me, “The desire after evil entered into thine heart. Nay, thinkest thou not that it is an evil deed for a righteous man, if the evil desire should enter into his heart? It is indeed a sin and a great one too,” saith she; "for the righteous man entertaineth righteous purposes. While then his purposes are righteous, his repute stands steadfast in the heavens, and he finds the Lord easily propitiated in all that he does. But they that entertain evil purposes in their hearts, bring upon themselves death an captivity, especially they that claim for themselves this present work and boast in its riches, and cleave not to the good things that are to come. "

If this is all that is needed to descend into Mortal Sin, who can possibly stay in a state of grace? I know I have thoughts like this or worse every day.
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CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
 
Christ stated that to lust after a woman (person) in your heart was already sinful, even if not acted upon.

The line that the Church as defined is whether you are entertaining these thoughts rather than trying to reject them. Fleetin, uninvited thoughts are not sinful. It is if you keep pondering on them where you cross the line. In addition, one has to use discernment as to whether a venial or mortal sin may have been committed. Remember, you have to know it is gravely evil, considered the this fact and chose to continue to think impure thoughts. It is only then that the mortal sin has been committed.

As for this Shepherd of Hermas quote, it is probably safe to ignore it, it is not in the canon of Scripture.
 
rpp said:
Christ stated that to lust after a woman (person) in your heart was already sinful, even if not acted upon.

The line that the Church as defined is whether you are entertaining these thoughts rather than trying to reject them. Fleetin, uninvited thoughts are not sinful. It is if you keep pondering on them where you cross the line. In addition, one has to use discernment as to whether a venial or mortal sin may have been committed. Remember, you have to know it is gravely evil, considered the this fact and chose to continue to think impure thoughts. It is only then that the mortal sin has been committed.

As for this Shepherd of Hermas quote, it is probably safe to ignore it, it is not in the canon of Scripture.
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Thanks. I already feel that I know enough, and have been freed enough, that I no longer have any excuse to call myself ignorant of any of my sins. So if I do something, I do it in full knowledge that it is sinful. Do I do it deliberately? Well, that’s what’s hard to tell, I certainly allow my mind to wander towards sinful thoughts sometimes, or allow my eyes to follow a woman who I find attractive when I know I shouldn’t.

Is there a difference between looking at pornography that’s designed to be such, and looking at a friend’s picture on a social networking site and thinking she, or one of her friends, is attractive?

Problem is, that means I’m constantly in a state of mortal sin, I’m constantly going to be going to confession else barred from the Eucharist. That’s such an awful thought.

I really wrecked myself before I became Catholic. Like what’s the point in avoiding looking at inappropriate images in the world, if those images are already in my head and I still find myself looking at them there? I’m kinda close to despair here. What can I do? Even if I were to retire to a monastery I’d still take my own evil thoughts with me.
 
DL82 said:
Thanks. I already feel that I know enough, and have been freed enough, that I no longer have any excuse to call myself ignorant of any of my sins. So if I do something, I do it in full knowledge that it is sinful. Do I do it deliberately? Well, that’s what’s hard to tell, I certainly allow my mind to wander towards sinful thoughts sometimes, or allow my eyes to follow a woman who I find attractive when I know I shouldn’t.

Problem is, that means I’m constantly in a state of mortal sin, I’m constantly going to be going to confession else barred from the Eucharist. That’s such an awful thought.

I really wrecked myself before I became Catholic. Like what’s the point in avoiding looking at inappropriate images in the world, if those images are already in my head and I still find myself looking at them there? I’m kinda close to despair here. What can I do? Even if I were to retire to a monastery I’d still take my own evil thoughts with me.
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Don’t dwell on this type of thinking. The fact that you are looking into this gives a different story on your character. As long as you are striving to get custody of those thoughts when they pop in and you are working to recognize them quicker you are on the right path. We are all very challenged because of the world we live in and all the lies we have been raised with and been bombarded with all the time.

It is true that we are often in mortal sin more than most people realize. We haven’t been educated enough or allowed the teaching to sink in enough. However you don’t want to give in to scrupulosity and be harder on yourself than you need to be. Some areas are more like imperfections and venial than mortal sin to us . The momentary unasked for image is not the same as the willfully viewed pornography and several of the stops we can rest on in between. When such thoughts are realized we can stop the thoughts and pray. Take heart. The majority of the saints before us struggled with these types of challenges.
 
Seatuck said:
Don’t dwell on this type of thinking. The fact that you are looking into this gives a different story on your character. As long as you are striving to get custody of those thoughts when they pop in and you are working to recognize them quicker you are on the right path. We are all very challenged because of the world we live in and all the lies we have been raised with and been bombarded with all the time.

It is true that we are often in mortal sin more than most people realize. We haven’t been educated enough or allowed the teaching to sink in enough. However you don’t want to give in to scrupulosity and be harder on yourself than you need to be. Some areas are more like imperfections and venial than mortal sin to us . The momentary unasked for image is not the same as the willfully viewed pornography and several of the stops we can rest on in between. When such thoughts are realized we can stop the thoughts and pray. Take heart. The majority of the saints before us struggled with these types of challenges.
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Thanks, I’ve been told by my confessor to keep going with this struggle many times. Does it ever end? Any success stories out there? And where does it leave me in the meantime? Crawling into the confessional 5 mins before every Mass because I’m unsure the state of my soul otherwise and too scared to receive communion.

Aren’t there any hard-and-fast lines on these things? What IS grave matter? Obviously adultery, pornography, murder, idolatry, stuff that affects stuff, is grave matter, but are our thoughts? How can I know when I’ve crossed the line? Didn’t the Church used to be much more precise on these matters? Even if the info you can provide is out of date, I’d appreciate any advice on when lust becomes a mortal sin, just so I can examine my conscience and know for sure in future.
 
rpp said:
Is it possible you may be a bit on the edge of scrupulosity?

Please check these links and see if these apply to you in this circumstance.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=3739

mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm
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Thanks for the links. I really don’t think this is me, it’s not like I’m worrying about the thoughts that pop into my head, or worrying whether I only said 9 hail Marys instead of 10, I’m worried about the times I have actually known that I’m dwelling on something that’s arousing the wrong feelings in me, but kept doing it anyway because it felt good at the time.

Anyway, new day, new resolution, will try not to go there again.
 
The way that I see this and according to the Church’s teachings is that lust is a mortal sin. It becomes that way because it becomes an obsession. You see someone as attractive is not really lust until there are carnal desires that evolve. That’s the problem.
 
“Is there a difference between looking at pornography that’s designed to be such, and looking at a friend’s picture on a social networking site and thinking she, or one of her friends, is attractive?”

It depends on what you mean by “attractive.” If your friend’s picture causes you to think that she would be interesting to talk to, or fun to get to know mentally, in addition to being physically attractive, then, yes there’s a difference! But if the picture causes you to *only *have pornographic thoughts about her, then there is no difference. (I’m assuming you are male. If not, I apologize!)

“Like what’s the point in avoiding looking at inappropriate images in the world, if those images are already in my head and I still find myself looking at them there?”

This is where keeping up the good fight helps. The more you fight it, the easier it will get, and the less often the thoughts will come. I speak from experience.

Here’s a suggestion: whenever one of those thoughts comes creeping, as soon as you recognize it, stop “looking” and say a Hail Mary to yourself. Our Mother is incompatible with porn! And she will always intercede for her children.

You could also look for different images of Mary, pick a favorite one, and substitute it in your mind for the inappropriate images.

Hang in there!

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
“Like what’s the point in avoiding looking at inappropriate images in the world, if those images are already in my head and I still find myself looking at them there?”
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I may have misunderstood the meaning in your statement here, but as it is written, I would disagree. The avoidance of viewing inappropriate images would eventually cause those in your head to dissipate over time and through some prayer. Looking at them again would only freshen the images already there or provide new ones for the brain to process.
 
rogerh_57 said:
I may have misunderstood the meaning in your statement here, but as it is written, I would disagree. The avoidance of viewing inappropriate images would eventually cause those in your head to dissipate over time and through some prayer. Looking at them again would only freshen the images already there or provide new ones for the brain to process.
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Thanks Roger, I’m not saying I want to carry on committing sins, just that I start to despair of whether they will ever go away.

I see the lives of so many saints, especially the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, the lay people who made a radical conversion of their lives in response to the preaching of St Francis of Assisi and his followers, and it just makes me wonder why the Church seems to make it so difficult for converts today. I can’t even join a lay order for 3 years, and this is the time when the most radical kind of penance is needed. I feel the urge to give away everything I have and embark on some kind of radical penance, some way to make up for more than a quarter-century of sinful living, but there isn’t any way of doing that without becoming some crazy guy living on the street. What to do? I need to get the temporal effects of my sins out of my life NOW, TODAY, not in many years’ time, but right this minute. I know with God’s grace anything is possible, so why can’t I do more.
 
Lust is always a mortal sin, and it will never be any thing but a mortal sin. Lust was invented by the Devil and was one of the causes that made Adam and Eve fall.

Masturbation is mortal sin, sex is a mortal sin also in marriage if its done out of lust and not for the reason to procreate. This has God said.

www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 26
www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 9
 
Predikant said:
Lust is always a mortal sin, and it will never be any thing but a mortal sin. Lust was invented by the Devil and was one of the causes that made Adam and Eve fall.

Masturbation is mortal sin, sex is a mortal sin also in marriage if its done out of lust and not for the reason to procreate. This has God said.

www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 26
www.saintbirgitta.com - book 1, chapter 9
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How does one have sex without any lust? I suppose out of mutual self-giving, but how? Also, are St Brigitte’s revelations approved? I get the feeling the Church doesn’t say that lust inside marriage is a mortal, but rather a venial sin, though maybe I’m wrong.
 
DL82 said:
How does one have sex without any lust? I suppose out of mutual self-giving, but how?
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you can’t, so I suppose lust as a sin must be different from sexual desire.

I think Pope JPII wrote a book on the topic of love and sex, you might want to take a look at it (I haven’t had a chance yet).
 
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