4
4givemeasinner
Guest
Are lustful thoughts mortal? When do they become mortal?
- Status
D
domandcarols
Guest
When you entertain them.
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
No, they are not.
I do not like the wording “mortal”.
They become against what Jesus Christ wants, when one starts agreeing with them and intends to do what they suggest, for instance, stealing the neighbor’s wife.
For me, what marks the difference is the will. Feelings are not sin. The will to do it, the will of following a feeling that is against God’s Will, that is something that we should not do for we should do what God wants.
Look: you may follow a lustful thought of your wife.
So, it is not the lustful thought that is against God’s will. It is the Social Order that God wants: monogamy, fidelity, love to your wife, family, children, love of children and so on.
Everything is related.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes.
In order to commit a mortal sin though --one needs not only the grave matter (as is the case with lustful thoughts) but also full knowledge and complete consent.
All sorts of thoughts could come unwanted and unconsented to…and there not be any sin…but rather even virtue in ones handling of them.
In order to commit a mortal sin though --one needs not only the grave matter (as is the case with lustful thoughts) but also full knowledge and complete consent.
All sorts of thoughts could come unwanted and unconsented to…and there not be any sin…but rather even virtue in ones handling of them.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Lustful thoughts about ones wife are also sinful…
You mean rather “ordered sexual thoughts” about ones wife. Such can yes potentially take place intentionally without sin.
B
Bookcat
Guest
(from previous posts of mine)
Regarding thoughts
while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…
(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)
What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…
(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)
First…Relax. Do not worry.
Now are they mortal sins?
For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!
A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.
B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.
C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.
D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…
remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!
What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.
Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)
for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.
tick tock …
tick tock…
Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.
So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry
another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.
they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …
(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)
Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…
How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…
(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)
There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.
The younger hermit said such is not possible…
the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.
So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business
Regarding thoughts
while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…
(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)
What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…
(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)
First…Relax. Do not worry.
Now are they mortal sins?
For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!
A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.
B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.
C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.
D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…
remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!
What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.
Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)
for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.
tick tock …
tick tock…
Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.
So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry
another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.
they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …
(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)
Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…
How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…
(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)
There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.
The younger hermit said such is not possible…
the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.
So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Never heard of “ordered sexual thoughts”. You can put your sexual thought is order and make them come one by one on queue?
Impossible for me ! My wife is too much !
Boy, there is sin everywhere in the RCC ! You cannot even wish your wife !!!
D
domandcarols
Guest
I don’t think you understand what is meant by lustful thought then… Lust is selfish.
B
Bookcat
Guest
“Ordered” meaning not set in order in a “queue” – but according to chastity in marriage.
That which is not sinful.
Chaste sexual thoughts and desires regarding ones spouse can be without sin (though one needs to avoid near occasions of sin etc…). (a confessor can clarify for any reader who has questions on this)
M
Maria1993
Guest
I have been battling intrusive thoughts and scruples for months now. I have learned to not let them control me. Hut they were horrendous.
I used to wake in the middle of the night… in the middle of a thought…I would then awake in shock and be like “No no no!!”
Especially since my fear was blasphemy, life was just a constant battle. I thank God it has been going away.
One morning I woke up to feelings I did not consent to and thoughts that just caused me to jolt up in complete scare and disgust… These are not sins right?
I used to wake in the middle of the night… in the middle of a thought…I would then awake in shock and be like “No no no!!”
Especially since my fear was blasphemy, life was just a constant battle. I thank God it has been going away.
One morning I woke up to feelings I did not consent to and thoughts that just caused me to jolt up in complete scare and disgust… These are not sins right?
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I have a theory about sexual pleasure in animals.
Nevertheless, I would like to hear someone’s theory.
Why did God put pleasure into animal sexual behavior ?
If no one answers, tomorrow I will give my theory. Nevertheless I would like VERY MUCH hear other theories first.
Then I get into the word “selfish”.
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Bookcat, please, you are a Catholic person, I guess you are married, you are a Bookcat what I do not know what means but I guess you read a lot, you have a responsability in the church !!!
The Church needs you to talk about sex in marriage not the poor priest, many of them are probably virgin, none of them is married and you are going to put those questions in confessions? The poor guy is going to invent something for he does not know or else we will enter in details not convenient.
That is up to you to think what is right and is not right. You are a Catholic, you are supposedly married, the Church NEEDS YOU !!! Needs your reflection, your experience, your common sense, your wisdom for the books you read.
My view…
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
No.
Have you seen Fellini’s movie: “The hour of the woolf”?
It is a person who wakes in the middle of the night with nightmares.
And her fear is of the nightmares.
And she fears the fear of nightmares.
So her life is hell.
It is not nice.
I think you are overdoing it.
Thoughts are not sin. If I think: “XXXXXXXXXXX” and this is a thought against God, this is a thought against God.
It is not a thought THAT I WANTED against God.
So it is a thought. If I think: “My brother is a donkey!” it does not mean that my brother is a donkey. He is not a donkey for I have no brothers.
If I think: “All the people who dies is in Hell” it is a thought. It is not true for it is not me who is going to judge people so I am zero to judge that. Nevertheless, the thought may come again: “Everybody is in hell !”.
So, relax. A thought is a thought. Do not fight against them, otherwise you will be the whole night fighting…and for sure you wont be able to sleep while fighting.
Laugh at it. Say to yourself: “What a stupid thought came to my mind!”.
My Master told me about thoughts: “Do not adhere, do not repress, do not analyze”.
Hard to do, effective…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Hum thanks for the vote of confidence (I try to do what I can…)
The confessor has been trained for his vocational work there in the confessional. It is part of the Priests role and education to guide penitents in confession…and yes on these very issues.
(unless of course one stumbles across one who was trained in the past during a period and in a seminary where things were not as they ought to be or he his not living up to his vocation and guiding others according to the Churches teaching -heck heresies have been started by Priests…ordination does not make one right…)
By the way my course at Franciscan University of Steubenville on medical and sexual morality-- where I learned a good deal of what I know on the subject --was taught by a Priest.
F
fred_conty
Guest
Jesus said, “he who looks AFTER another women has already committed the sin of adultery in his heart.” AFTER is the key word. Giving in. Turning away is also a key factor for virtue. And in this context of scripture, he wasn’t referring to married persons.
Just a thought. What do you think?
Just a thought. What do you think?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Actually I would not say he ‘wasn’t referring to married persons’.
And such is taken in theology in a general way.
Also one can note that Bl. Pope John Paul II said not to lust after ones spouse either…
(he did not mean ordered sexual desire…but rather such as reducing them to objects etc)
B
brb3
Guest
Thoughts are not sin … unless we give them a home in our minds, take selfish pleasure in them, or determine to act upon them outside of marriage.
Regarding ‘lust’ for your wife … that would seem allowable. Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 7:9 “It is better to take a wife, than to burn with passion [lust]”.
D
domandcarols
Guest
What??- Status