Luther admitted he removed 7 books?

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David-

Is there a doctrinal position that finds its basis exclusively from Philemon or 2 John or 3 John?

Is that the criteria that was used for determing the canon?
It’s been a while since I’ve been able to get back to this forum, but I do appreciate this comment, Randy, and wanted to reply. You are perhaps correct that availability of doctrine is not the specific criteria for canonicity, though the doctrine of love is pervasive in the three books mentioned. Some would question whether love is a doctrine, but it certainly is a defining characteristic of Christ’s followers according to John 13:35 and the examples of the books cited certainly help to further define it.

Having said that, I do think you have a valid point. Perhaps what should be more at issue here is a question of genre. This is more easily seen in the Old Testament. For example, many have tried to use the book of Proverbs as a book of promises. But the genre is proverbs, not promises. There is great wisdom here about how life generally works, but not necessarily promises one can lay claim to. Also, one should be cautious when extracting doctrine from the Psalms, for while they often show intimate and honest cries to God and are often quite emotional, they demonstrate relationship much more than they do divine doctrine. Then there are the historical books. For example, what doctrine does one pull from Esther? So you have a point.

All this makes me wonder whether or not maybe Luther started out just setting the Apocrypha apart as a specific genre (which affects how we use it), but it later developed into something more. To use Newton’s law “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction,” I can imagine how things developed. The Catholic church reacted and cried foul to what Luther had done. Luther in turn reacted and went a step further. And so the gap continued to widen. It might be similar to what I believe happened with the advent of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. They didn’t suddenly come on the scene out of a vacuum. Their legal fanaticism came in reaction to the hellenizers. The Sadducees likewise became further confirmed in their secular mindset in reaction to them. Both sides were wrong at least to a degree. Much as a pendulum swings toward the point of gravity where it should rest, it is moved by inertia away from that point. The inertia of our reactions does the same in our own understanding of truth. I firmly believe there is some element of truth in both positions in what is being discussed here, but we have a difficult time overcoming our biases and starting at zero so as to find it.
 
can someone explain this, an i quote"the king james version of the bible originallyincluded the apocryphal books.the orthodox church accept these books. even john wesley quoted from them frequently in his revival sermons. this raise a related issue. for evangelicals and reformers alike, there are no objective criteria sufficient for faith.this is most obvious when we discuss the canon evangelicals have no good, objective explanation for accepting the canon they do accept. ca tholics did not change the canon of the early church or the deposit of faith to make them fit preconceived ideas." this come from mr. david currie a convert. from my perspective he answer this question. as a catholic i like my bible just the way it is, without exclusions. the lord is my sheperd…god bless all here:)
 
Mayra, you ask exactly the right question, IMO. This is precisely the reason that “Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist” (as I like to call myself) has come to realize that the canon is incomplete without the deuterocanonicals.
I have therefore, come to where I read from a 66 book Bible, only when the translation is not available in the full 73 book version. (It happens; but not much, not any more. I have fallen in love with the Douay-Rheims, & with the RSV-CE, I have:thumbsup: all the Bibles that I need ).
 
can someone explain this, an i quote"the king james version of the bible originallyincluded the apocryphal books.the orthodox church accept these books. even john wesley quoted from them frequently in his revival sermons. this raise a related issue. for evangelicals and reformers alike, there are no objective criteria sufficient for faith.this is most obvious when we discuss the canon evangelicals have no good, objective explanation for accepting the canon they do accept. ca tholics did not change the canon of the early church or the deposit of faith to make them fit preconceived ideas." this come from mr. david currie a convert. from my perspective he answer this question. as a catholic i like my bible just the way it is, without exclusions. the lord is my sheperd…god bless all here:)
Mayra hart,

During the Reformation Luther sifted through the Catholic Bible and de-emphasized the 7 books (declared them ‘not inspired’) because they conflicted with his new doctrines and beliefts. Following the Reformation the Protestant movement splintered into the thousands of sects we have now. Between these groups and even within a single sect there is no ecclesiastical, authoritative or doctrinal agreement.

Luther put the books into the Apocraphya. Protestant Bibles vary as to whether they include or exclude some or all of these books.

Iowa Mike
 
Luther put the books into the Apocraphya. Protestant Bibles vary as to whether they include or exclude some or all of these books.
Iowa Mike
I have only seen 2 different versions of the Apocrypha in Protestant Bibles. The RSV and NRSV contain: 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach), Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, and Psalm 151. The KJV omits 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees. I am not aware of any other variations of books in Protestant Apocrypha. Either those books are included, or else they are completely excluded. Incidentally, I own the RSV and NRSV with Apocrypha because I wanted to own Bibles with 1 & 2 Esdras, 3 & 4 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151, since our Orthodox brothers and sisters recognize those books. I plan on purchasing the Orthodox Study Bible when it is completed.
 
I have only seen 2 different versions of the Apocrypha in Protestant Bibles. The RSV and NRSV contain: 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach), Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, and Psalm 151. The KJV omits 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees. I am not aware of any other variations of books in Protestant Apocrypha. Either those books are included, or else they are completely excluded. Incidentally, I own the RSV and NRSV with Apocrypha because I wanted to own Bibles with 1 & 2 Esdras, 3 & 4 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151, since our Orthodox brothers and sisters recognize those books. I plan on purchasing the Orthodox Study Bible when it is completed.
Then we basically agree.

Iowa Mike
 
(And this might be why Luther took the position he did.) It seems to me that there is a basic difference here between Catholic and Protestant hermeneutics.
At the price of purgatory, seemingly a skimpy price to pay, Luther thought he had found a way to stop indulgence abuses.
Purgatory, to my knowledge, is not specifically dealt with in plain fashion in Scripture,
biblechristiansociety.com/
The above website has free downloads, tapes, and cds, The one called Mary and the Bible; and purgatory and the bible has scriptural evidence other than the deutero’s.
This might be why Luther did not accept the Apocryphal books though he did see them as historically important.
I’m no historian, but lack of historical acuracy is one of the arguments against the deutero’s normally presented by Protestants.
 
and i quoted"because, during the reformation, the canon was being challenge, the church reaffirmed the historic canon of the early church in the council of trent. but to exclude books because they did not fit theological presuppositions struck me as outrageous" an this is the words of mr currie book. a born fundamentalist born again catholic now. the lord is my sheperd… 👍
 
I wanted to share Steve Woods cd on Martin Luther.
It was very interesting and altho it may not answer your exact question it’s a great start for anyone interested in the reformation
or for those high school kids who find the protestant laden history in their textbooks without the real background. There is also discussion on how his father greatly disabled him from being able to have a good relationship with God the Father and how many other prime protestant leaders shared the same handicap due to their own inept fathers. amazing.

It’s also interesting that the printing press came out just in time to spread his errors. How unfortunate was that?

familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=755
 
77 years back then doesn’t change the fact it was in the same time frame since inventions didn’t progress at the speed they do now. It would have taken time for word of the invention to travel and for it to be duplicated etc. So 77 years is really insignificant.

The textbook from the local public high school devoted half a page to the fact it was in the same time period and did in fact promote the spread of Luther’s protest.
 
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