Luther and James

[Jeff77]

JonNC: Is any scripture from the deuterocanonical books used in Lutheran liturgy?

The prayer of Manasseh isn’t in the Catholic bible but it was an addendum to the Vulgate.

Do you think it should be in the bible?

We chanted the song of the three children on Easter Vigil.
But, as Jon says, I agree we should use more.

 

[JonNC]

Me thinks even if we don’t say purgatory Jon will “protest” it.

Why would think that about such an agreeable chap such as me?
Jon

 

[Tomster]

Me thinks even if we don’t say purgatory Jon will “protest” it.

Me thinks Martin Luther considered all sins to be mortal but that those mortal sins were just covered up by Christ and not actually removed. If that were the case, there were be no need for purgatory.

 

[JonNC]

Me thinks Martin Luther considered all sins to be mortal but that those mortal sins were just covered up by Christ and not actually removed. If that were the case, there were be no need for purgatory.

No. He believed sins are forgiven. The scriptures and confessions are clear on the necessity of repentence. All sin can be mortal if they are repeated and unrepented.

He also held out the possibility of the doctrine of Purgatory if all the abuses were set aside - indulgences, private masses, etc.

Jon

 

[Tomster]

No. He believed sins are forgiven. The scriptures and confessions are clear on the necessity of repentence. All sin can be mortal if they are repeated and unrepented.

He also held out the possibility of the doctrine of Purgatory if all the abuses were set aside - indulgences, private masses, etc.

Jon

Sorry, Jon, Luther and Calvin both rejected purgatory as a “diabolic invention”.

 

[brb3]

He also held out the possibility of the doctrine of Purgatory if all the abuses were set aside - indulgences, private masses, etc.

And you, JonNC … how do you read scripture on need of purgation of unconfessed venial sins ?

I’m sure you have read what Pope Benedict 16 says about Purgatory … in the Luthern / Catholic dialogue declaration.

It seems totally c/w scripture to me, a former Protestant. I believe Benedict has been enlightened on what Purgatory is all about, and the essential need for it. It probably isn’t what we Protestants once believed it might be … based upon reading of Dante’s Inferno, and other discussions we had about the Catholic teaching.
In fact, the Catholic Church today does not wish to speak in terms of specifics of our purgation of unconfessed venial sins … we admit we don’t know them. But, Benedict’s ideas on the subject seem very practical and c/w a fair & complete reading of scripture. And … it is probably our Particular Judgment occasion, before Christ … when all the dross is burned off us. So, Purgatory may not be so much a place to go … for punishment, but a process of our purification before the Lord, a Lord who Loves us … and will treat us fairly and only in ways essential for our preparation to see the Father & the Heavenly Kingdom.

 

[JonNC]

Sorry, Jon, Luther and Calvin both rejected purgatory as a “diabolic invention”.

From the document:

1. The most explicit discussion of purgatory in the Confessions comes in the 1537 Smalcald Articles, II, 2, which addressed the mass as sacrifice. Besides being itself a violation of the Gospel, the mass as sacrifice “has produced many noxious maggots and the excrement of various idolatries” (§11), the first of which is purgatory. Purgatory, “with all its pomp, requiem Masses, and transactions, is to be regarded as an apparition of the devil for it obscures the chief article…” (§12). Behind Luther’s typically extreme language, however, a more nuanced understanding is elaborated. “Concerning the dead we have received neither command nor instruction. For these reasons, it may be best to abandon it [derhalben man es mocht wohl lassen], even if it were neither error nor idolatry” (§12). In a revised version of the article, Luther added a discussion of the authority of Augustine claimed for the doctrine. “When they have given up their purgatorial ‘Mass fairs’ (something Augustine never dreamed of), then we will discuss with them whether St. Augustine’s word, lacking support from Scripture, may be tolerated and whether the dead may be commemorated at the sacrament. It will not do to formulate articles of faith on the basis of the holy Fathers’ works or words” (§14f). The existence of purgatory is not dogmatically denied. Rather, 1) the existence of purgatory is not taught by Scripture and thus cannot be binding doctrine, and 2) belief in purgatory is now hopelessly bound up with unacceptable practices. A belief that could be discussed in principle is concretely objectionable because of its associations.

In the discussions of Purgatory in the confessions, and from what I understand, by Luther, the issue is always centered around masses for the dead, indulgences, etc., as the document shows. And the Lutherans state here, exactly, that the existence of Purgatory is not dogmatically denied.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

And you, JonNC … how do you read scripture on need of purgation of unconfessed venial sins ?

I’m sure you have read what Pope Benedict 16 says about Purgatory … in the Luthern / Catholic dialogue declaration.

It seems totally c/w scripture to me, a former Protestant. I believe Benedict has been enlightened on what Purgatory is all about, and the essential need for it. It probably isn’t what we Protestants once believed it might be … based upon reading of Dante’s Inferno, and other discussions we had about the Catholic teaching.
In fact, the Catholic Church today does not wish to speak in terms of specifics of our purgation of unconfessed venial sins … we admit we don’t know them. But, Benedict’s ideas on the subject seem very practical and c/w a fair & complete reading of scripture. And … it is probably our Particular Judgment occasion, before Christ … when all the dross is burned off us. So, Purgatory may not be so much a place to go … for punishment, but a process of our purification before the Lord, a Lord who Loves us … and will treat us fairly and only in ways essential for our preparation to see the Father & the Heavenly Kingdom.

From the document:

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgment. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgment we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.214

1. This teaching makes clear that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory and the Lutheran teaching of the self being purified by death-and-resurrection intend to describe the same reality: the process by which the self, distracted during this life by sin and the remnants of sin, is turned fully to Christ, purified of all that would hinder perfect communion with God, Christ, and the saints that will be the life of heaven. Juridical categories of satisfaction and debt, which helpfully emphasize our personal responsibility for sin, are not denied in this picture, but they are contextualized and integrated within a more comprehensive picture of the power of God’s love to transform the justified into persons fit for the kingdom.

1. As Ratzinger stated: "Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather is it the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints."215

I believe what the Catholic theologians say here is correct, that there is, in large measure “same reality” in what we believe, and I do find Pope Benedict’s comments to be a new light shed on the debate between us regarding it.

In one of the new releases regarding this dialogue, the late Father Tavard is referenced:

Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
If permitted to describe and believe it in this way, I do not see the Purgatory as an issue that should be Church-dividing, nor is it a stumbling block for me.

Jon

 

[Jerry-Jet]

JonNC: do you think that Lutherans being cleansed immediately after death will be able to FEEL that cleansing? Will it be a good feeling–an unpleasant feeling–both–or will it not be FELT at all?

Do Lutherans think it is OK to pray for people who have died?

 

[Porknpie]

From the document:

And the Lutherans state here, exactly, that the existence of Purgatory is not dogmatically denied.

Jon

Jon,

This is a learning to me. Is this clear to most LCMS attending church regularly on Sunday? I honestly don’t know… my sense is that this would surprise my wife’s family members. I’ve never heard them say this.

TGIF,

Pork

 

[brb3]

I believe what the Catholic theologians say here is correct, that there is, in large measure “same reality” in what we believe, and I do find Pope Benedict’s comments to be a new light shed on the debate between us regarding it.

In one of the new releases regarding this dialogue, the late Father Tavard is referenced:

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
If permitted to describe and believe it in this way, I do not see the Purgatory as an issue that should be Church-dividing, nor is it a stumbling block for me.

Jon

Awesome …

I could sense you are an amazingly perceptive Lutheran, able to reason thru the biblical conundrums, and see clearly to the reality of resolving the difficult enigmas.

One thing is certain … any persistent seeker of the truth will receive grace for their efforts. As scripture says, “seek, and you will find” !!

 

[JonNC]

=Jerry-Jet;10702403]JonNC: do you think that Lutherans being cleansed immediately after death will be able to FEEL that cleansing? Will it be a good feeling–an unpleasant feeling–both–or will it not be FELT at all?

I don’t think there is any way to know for sure what cleansing will feel like, but I know when I confess my sins what that feels like - not good - and what my pastor’s pronouncement of Holy Absolution feels like - great joy and thanksgiving. So, my guess is something along those lines.

Do Lutherans think it is OK to pray for people who have died?

According to the confessions, yes. In fact, a number of the Lutheran funeral rites do include prayer of the recently departed. We don’t however, dwell on those prayers. Luther’s recommendation was “once or twice”, then leave it to God.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

This is a learning to me. Is this clear to most LCMS attending church regularly on Sunday? I honestly don’t know… my sense is that this would surprise my wife’s family members. I’ve never heard them say this.

TGIF,

Pork

It would be my sense, as well. Most American Lutherans would probably not dig into this kind of theology deeply. Most would have the sense that we don’t believe in Purgatory, that that is a “Catholic thing”, and leave it at that.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Awesome …

I could sense you are an amazingly perceptive Lutheran, able to reason thru the biblical conundrums, and see clearly to the reality of resolving the difficult enigmas.

One thing is certain … any persistent seeker of the truth will receive grace for their efforts. As scripture says, “seek, and you will find” !!

Honestly, though I appreciate your kind remarks, I think you give me too much credit. As you can see, just like any knowledgeable Catholic, I simply depend on our Church leadership to spell these things out, and not rely on my own understandings. I tend to follow what Martin Chemnitz said:
*“This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages…” *

Jon

 

[Philthy]

Honestly, though I appreciate your kind remarks, I think you give me too much credit. As you can see, just like any knowledgeable Catholic, I simply depend on our Church leadership to spell these things out, and not rely on my own understandings. I tend to follow what Martin Chemnitz said:
*“This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages…” *
Jon

Hey if it isn’t too much trouble, could you list the 5 most important differences between the Lutheran faith as you understand it and Catholicism? ISTM you present Lutheranism as essentially the same as Catholicism. In short I’m looking for the 5 main reasons Lutherans don’t choose to be in communion with the Catholic Church.

Thanks

 

[JonNC]

Hey if it isn’t too much trouble, could you list the 5 most important differences between the Lutheran faith as you understand it and Catholicism? ISTM you present Lutheranism as essentially the same as Catholicism. In short I’m looking for the 5 main reasons Lutherans don’t choose to be in communion with the Catholic Church.

Thanks

In no particular order
Our understanding of the sacrifice of the mass
Power and primacy of the pope
Lingering differences on justification ( imputed vs infused,etc )

Most others are usually related to these.
Jon

 

[Porknpie]

In no particular order
Our understanding of the sacrifice of the mass
Power and primacy of the pope
Lingering differences on justification ( imputed vs infused,etc )

Most others are usually related to these.
Jon

My Lutheran relatives would say…

• Power & primacy of the pope
• Purgatory
• Mary
• Catholics saved by works (their words not mine)

 

[JonNC]

My Lutheran relatives would say…

• Power & primacy of the pope
• Purgatory
• Mary
• Catholics saved by works (their words not mine)

On Purgatory, the disputes are related to the differing views of soteriology, ISTM. That’s why the real complaints have to do with indulgences, masses for the dead, etc. Most Lutherans will not have read the document I have provided. It doesn’t really matter to their faith or daily lives. They are as confident in their assumption of a rejection of Purgatory (as the Reformers understood it) and Catholics are in their acceptance of it. I don’t mean to sound elitist, because I’m not. I’m just really interested in these kinds of things.

On Mary, similarly, they are satisfied with the view of Mary as the virgin who gave birth to our Savior, and stood at the foot of the cross. They have great admiration for her, but in a faith that tends to be Christocentric, there’s just no need to explore beyond that. In addition, we are sola scripturist, and there is a resistance to dogmatizing things not explicit in scripture. Lutherans will accept the virgin birth, and if properly catechized, the Holy Theotokos, but the other things are really of little interest.

Catholics saved by works is part of what I mean by differences regarding justification. Most Lutherans and Catholics have probably never read the JDDJ.
I might add here that I think Lutherans have as many misunderstandings about the Catholic view of justification as Catholics seem to have about the Lutheran view. Lutherans often misconstrue “faith and works” as works righteousness, while Catholics often misconstrue “faith alone” as no need for any works.

Jon

 

[CarolNoel]

Just want to say I am enjoying reading this post. Very interesting.

 

[Philthy]

In no particular order
Our understanding of the sacrifice of the mass
Power and primacy of the pope
Lingering differences on justification ( imputed vs infused,etc )
Most others are usually related to these.
Jon

Do Lutherans understand the Mass as a sacrifice at all?
Yeah, those differences seem to be pretty meaningless to all but the intellectual elite and hardly worthy of the split over them.
I find it interesting that you didn’t mention Sola Scriptura