Luther Did Not Start the Reformation

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I know a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
The recent approach of the Vatican is to find areas of agreement, instead of rejecting everything. We have much more in common with Lutherans than we do with Calvanists and modern “evangelicals” and “non-denominationals” that are heavily influenced by Calvanism (though they usually don’t realize that).

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Definition of delusional = believing things that aren’t true DELUSIONAL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Luther believed he had authority he didn’t have, AND believed other people didn’t have the authority they actually had. And Luther acted on his errors

He was delusional AS WELL AS he was a heretic.
What is “true” is often a matter of people’s perceptions. A person whose perceptions are dissonant with the common shared reality is often considered crazy, demon possessed, or delusional. This was also said of Joan of Arc. Many believed that her “voices” were demons talking to her, and did not share her ideas about what God wanted to do with and for France. Eventually she was put to death for her “delusions”.
does that answer your objection
No. My objection is that your attitude and approach are not consistent with the movement of the Catholic Church when it comes to Luther.
 
No… I think you are right. Luther was one of many coming from various parts of the world. God was raising up various people to get the reform accomplished. But Luther’s testimony became the centerpiece. And I seriously doubt that he wanted glory from it.
 
MHO: The practice of nailing thesis to Church doors was risky. Today that would be like sending papers to a publisher. Some being theologians, or at least educated to some ability to pose an influence on the unlearned, they should have fallen on old standbys of discussing the papers to Catholic clergy which as always been the norm. Peter admits to scripture needing an opinion of clergy in some cases.

All this enough in the 14th century to warn of the risk of propagating error. The only remaining option for them is to be obedient and to submit.
 
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steve-b:
Definition of delusional = believing things that aren’t true DELUSIONAL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Luther believed he had authority he didn’t have, AND believed other people didn’t have the authority they actually had. And Luther acted on his errors

He was delusional AS WELL AS he was a heretic.
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guanophore:
What is “true” is often a matter of people’s perceptions.
That is indifferentism to truth
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guanophore:
A person whose perceptions are dissonant with the common shared reality is often considered crazy, demon possessed, or delusional. This was also said of Joan of Arc. Many believed that her “voices” were demons talking to her, and did not share her ideas about what God wanted to do with and for France. Eventually she was put to death for her “delusions”.
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steve-b:
Joan of Arc is a martyr and saint. And she was correct. How does that fit in with Luther who was a heretic and caused huge divisions that are still with us today?
does that answer your objection
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guanophore:
No. My objection is that your attitude and approach are not consistent with the movement of the Catholic Church when it comes to Luther.
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steve-b:
Re: attitude AND the last 500 years, AND all the ecumenical language in this main document of Vat II,

has Paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html been eliminated by the Church, with regards to Lutherans?

Is it okay now for Catholics to become Lutheran, with no consequences to the Catholic’s soul?

If the answer is NO, then bottom line, even with all the ecumenical language surrounding that paragraph, once a person is shown the truth, then paragraph 14 is saying, it’s not okay to remain Lutheran if one wants to be saved.
paragraph 14 is huge
 
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God did not call anyone to fracture His Church. Was there need for reform? Yes. Luther was like trying to fix a flat tire by cutting the car in half to make a motor cycle.
 
paragraph 14 is huge
All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13)*
 
I don’t have to play dumb. You didn’t quote me. Here is my post Luther Did Not Start the Reformation
Yes I did. On the upper right of each post it links to the quoted post,
You inserted your def and a link.

NOW why don’t you respond to my interpretation of what you said. If I got it wrong then clarify.
 
The recent approach of the Vatican is to find areas of agreement, instead of rejecting everything. We have much more in common with Lutherans than we do with Calvanists and modern “evangelicals” and “non-denominationals” that are heavily influenced by Calvanism (though they usually don’t realize that).
So we ignore all the differences? And what about bringing them into the fold?
 
By your definition, every protestant is delusional.
That would not surprise me in the least!
And I seriously doubt that he wanted glory from it.
Clearly not. He was well acquainted with Catholic saints and did not demonstrate an abundance of the fruit of the Spirit. It is unlikely that God will be glorified through one who does not.

Luther sent the Theses enclosed with a letter to Albert of Brandenburg, the Archbishop of Mainz, on 31 October 1517, a date now considered the start of the Reformation and commemorated annually as Reformation Day. If the Archbishop had taken him more seriously, things may have gone very differently.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Work...nd_notes,_Volume_1/Disputation_on_Indulgences

"Albert employed Tetzel for the actual preaching of the Indulgence and furnished him a book of instructions:“Instructio summaria ad Subcommissarios Penitentiarum et Confessores.” Later, Martin Luther addressed a letter of protest to Albert concerning the conduct of Tetzel, found fault with the Bishop’s book of instructions and asked him to suppress it. Luther’s letter was disregarded. Though many of the accusations against Albert’s morals were doubtless, false, Luther was probably justified in thinking that he would find in Albert a strong partisan.

The young bishop was somewhat worldly-minded, extravagant, better trained in humanistic studies than in theology, too much given to the patronage of learned men and artists. His long intimacy with Ulrich von Hutten is especially reprehensible. Leo X was obliged to send an admonition to Mainz because so many books hostile to the Faith were being published under the Bishop’s eye.

(The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Special edition; vol. I, Page 262. New York; The Encyclopedia Press, 1913.)

Now if the Catholic Encyclopedia says that the archbishop was “worldly minded” one can only imagine how secular he really was. Poor Luther had no pious person to whom he could appeal.
The only remaining option for them is to be obedient and to submit.
While I agree with this, Luther was so provoked by his perception that the Gospel was being sullied that he could not, in good conscience, do this.
 
That is indifferentism to truth
No, it is an observation that what is “real” is a matter of individual perceptions.
Joan of Arc is a martyr and saint. And she was correct. How does that fit in with Luther who was a heretic and caused huge divisions that are still with us today?
Joan of Arc is a martyr and saint. And she was correct. How does that fit in with Luther who was a heretic and caused huge divisions that are still with us today?
You and I know and accept this, but even faithful Catholics of her day had difficulty with what they thought were her “delusions”.

Since you have defined Luther’s perceptions of reality as “delusional” then it is up to you to reconcile that his experience was very similar to that of Joan of Arc.
once a person is shown the truth, then paragraph 14 is saying, it’s not okay to remain Lutheran if one wants to be saved.
This is not a license for Luther Bashing.
Did you see the definition I posted?
Yes, it fits many of the Saints, Joan of Arc included.
God did not call anyone to fracture His Church. Was there need for reform? Yes. Luther was like trying to fix a flat tire by cutting the car in half to make a motor cycle.
I think, as long as the Pope was in the half that got jettisoned, he would have been happy.
So we ignore all the differences? And what about bringing them into the fold?
I don’t think that ignoring differences is an option. But I am sure that focusing on what drives wedges between us, rather than what unites us, is counterproductive.
 
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JanSobieskiIII:
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Dhc8_Type:
Just because he translated the New Testament from Greek not Latin to German doesn’t make it unofficial
No but adding words to the scripture sure makes it unofficial.
He didn’t add words. He translated. He didn’t do a transliteration
I don’t think anyone really ever intends to, but translation is a sloppy task. Particularly when the languages involved are distant relative to one another.

I think we all should assume Luther translated in good faith, even if it was impaired by recent history.
 
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SojournerOnEarth:
Most Protestants do not consider themselves as having started new churches.
They may not consider, but they did…
If we are talking about the Reformation era communions, none of the current members were alive when the started.
I think it safe to say that virtually none of them have started new churches
 
If we are talking about the Reformation era communions, none of the current members were alive when the started.

I think it safe to say that virtually none of them have started new churches
I’m talking about the individuals who started these communions, not every Protestant.
I don’t know how things are going were you live, but here in Brazil protestants create new “churches” every single day.
As an example, the Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil (Brazilian Presbyterian Church) was started by an american missionary in the end of the XIX Century. Today, less than two centurys after their creation, that communion has suffered more than six divisions.
I’m not against the protestants (in fact my entire family is protestant), but I’ve to say that Protestantism is a chaotic and divisive plethora of heterodoxies and I pray that God may give them the Grace to see their errors and convert to the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
 
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