Luther Did Not Start the Reformation

[SojournerOnEarth]

So we are at impasse. You warn me of hell and I warn you back. This is what the Catholic Church and Protestants have been at for 450 years. In her wisdom the Catholic Church has abandoned this approach because it has never worked, and never will, and recognizes that the relationships with Protestant churches are far more nuanced than this. I have said you are in schism because you reject the approach Pope Francis and every pope since Vatican 2 has followed. I have asked you repeatedly questions related to this. Your refusal to state things, such as your refusal to state whether you believe Protestants should be tortured and burned by the church, is telling. The Catholic Church has rejected your approach, and so do I.

What you are doing is agenda posting in your heretical delusion that somehow you are smarter than your popes, bishops, etc., who have shown you the way to do ecumenism. You defy them while demanding Protestants submit to them. What audacious hypocrisy.

Your approach has all the appeal of
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You did not seriously think that a Hobbit could contend with the will of Sauron? There are none who can. Against the power of Mordor, there can be no victory. We must join with him, Gandalf. We must join with Sauron.

I have told you these things repeatedly. In fact, I would be in violation Titus 3:10 if I continued to encourage you in you factionalism by continuing to dialog with you. I don’t think it is healthy for you emotionally or spiritually to further your delusions.

Get off my threads and leave me alone. Responses from you to me I will consider harassment. CAF may need to discuss that with your internet service provider if you continue.

Thank you.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

That said, objectively speaking, non-Catholics can’t and shouldn’t presume then, that they are absolutely okay and their souls are okay, being non-Catholic. That would objectively speaking, flip all the scriptures on their head, that condemn division from the Catholic Church

Beyond grace, no one, Catholic or not, should presume then, that they are absolutely okay and their souls are okay.

No one I know says differently. One needs to be in the state of grace. No mortal sin on their soul at death.

JonNC:

That has nothing to do with the Bishop of Rome.

On the contrary

Schism / division / dissension is a mortal sin. Why? Look at the consequences

Division / dissension = διχοστασίαι , http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm ,

Schism = σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm

Consequences for that sin of division / dissension / schism

Rm 16:17-21, Rom 16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway & Gal 5:19-21 lists grave sins Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

“I warn you as I warned you before, … they won’t inherit heaven”.[Gal 5: 21] That’s as bad a consequence as it gets

 

[guanophore]

If you have a headache, do you chop off your head?

This was a common medieval method of dealing with people who defied authority.

 

[JonNC]

Schism = σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm

Consequences for that sin of division / dissension / schism

Rm 16:17-21, Rom 16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway & Gal 5:19-21 lists grave sins Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

“I warn you as I warned you before, … they won’t inherit heaven”.[Gal 5: 21] That’s as bad a consequence as it gets

Then all of us become even more reliant on grace, and the seeking of forgiveness for our mutual sin of schism, division, dissension. And praying for the unity, instead of accusing each other for causing it, becomes our greatest priority.
As Pope Benedict said at the Lutheran Church in Rome:
"This cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men. We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity. Let us hope that He brings us to that goal".
Amen

 

[MaryT777]

It is “entertaining?..”

 

[steve-b]

Schism = σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm

Consequences for that sin of division / dissension / schism

Rm 16:17-21, Rom 16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway & Gal 5:19-21 lists grave sins Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

“I warn you as I warned you before, … they won’t inherit heaven”.[Gal 5: 21] That’s as bad a consequence as it gets

JonNC:

Then all of us become even more reliant on grace,

steve-b:

True, We all need and rely on grace

JonNC:

and the seeking of forgiveness for our mutual sin of schism, division, dissension.

steve-b:

Those in schism / division / Dissension, refers to those who did so from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church didn’t divide from itself. Jesus set up the hierarchy. That’s what will be the yardstick. Peter is the leader and those in union with him. Everybody is either with this or against it.

JonNC:

And praying for the unity, instead of accusing each other for causing it, becomes our greatest priority.

steve-b:

Jon,
Who warned us about the sins of, and the consequences for, schism, division and dissension? Who gets blamed but the ones who leave. Those who do it, and are in it, and keep it going. After 500 years, there are 10’s of thousands of individual organizations that think THEY are the Church. NONE of them are Catholic. Meaning all of THEM, are in one way or another, in all of those sins mentioned. Oh and let’s not forget heresies.,

JonNC:

As Pope Benedict said at the Lutheran Church in Rome:
"This cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men. We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity. Let us hope that He brings us to that goal".
Amen

steve-b:

I’ve seen tons of outreach by the Catholic Church, in the last 50 yrs. And I also have my feet on both sides of Vat II. Sorry to say, I haven’t seen much success in these last 50 yrs. My observation is, this is a test. Whether it is a pop quiz, the midterms, or final exam, few are moving ahead.

 

[JonNC]

Those in schism / division / Dissension, refers to those who did so from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church didn’t divide from itself. Jesus set up the hierarchy. That’s what will be the yardstick.

Again, the source of our disagreement. I’m as Catholic as you. You are as much in division from me as I am with you. If either of us deny that, “we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. “

After 500 years, there are 10’s of thousands of individual organizations

Including those in communion with the Bishop of Rome

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Those in schism / division / Dissension, refers to those who did so from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church didn’t divide from itself. Jesus set up the hierarchy. That’s what will be the yardstick.

Again, the source of our disagreement. I’m as Catholic as you. You are as much in division from me as I am with you. If either of us deny that, “we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. “

steve-b:

You deceive yourself that you are Catholic. AND I know who started all the Protestant organizations i.e. divisions. It wasn’t Jesus nor was it the HS.

After 500 years, there are 10’s of thousands of individual organizations thinking they are “the Church”

JonNC:

Including those in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Those in communion is good and might I add required according to Jesus and apostolic Tradition. Those who aren’t, are in conflict with Jesus prayer.

This is why there is no progress.

 

[JonNC]

Those in communion is good and might I add required according to Jesus and apostolic Tradition. Those who aren’t, are in conflict with Jesus prayer.

This is why there is no progress.

The reason there is no progress is, in part,triumphalism. On both sides

 

[JonNC]

Again, the source of our disagreement. I’m as Catholic as you. You are as much in division from me as I am with you. If either of us deny that, “we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. “

Hey Steve,
You have to tell me where to find the strike through function. I haven’t found it yet and you’re wearing it out.

 

[guanophore]

Who warned us about the sins of, and the consequences for, schism, division and dissension? Who gets blamed but the ones who leave. Those who do it, and are in it, and keep it going. After 500 years, there are 10’s of thousands of individual organizations that think THEY are the Church. NONE of them are Catholic. Meaning all of THEM, are in one way or another, in all of those sins mentioned. Oh and let’s not forget heresies.,

It sounds like you want to lump all non-Catholic Christians into these categories, but this approach is not consistent with the Catechism.

Even the Catechism states that there is plenty of blame to share. The point that the catechism is making, and that JonNC is echoing, is that focusing on what divided us. assigning blame, and I will add, affixing these names to people is not conducive to the unity to which Christ has called us.
he sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1271

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

 

[guanophore]

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#818

 

[steido01]

Google “Emser plagiarized” and enjoy.

 

[tgGodsway]

It is not about fracturing His Church. The Protestant Reformation is way overdue for another reform, a shaking loose of everything that is not of God. What God did in Luther’s day in the CC is what God does all the time. Everything that is not of Him He shakes up. Everything that remains after is of Him. So… today we have one Church, made up of many points of view on certain things. But as I’m sure you know, as the DAY of His coming approaches there will be a great falling away in the Church, according to 2nd Thess. 2:3.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Those in communion is good and might I add required according to Jesus and apostolic Tradition. Those who aren’t, are in conflict with Jesus prayer.

This is why there is no progress.

The reason there is no progress is, in part,triumphalism. On both sides

Jesus is who makes His Church triumph. His Church received all HIS PROMISES. It will therefore be the one triumphant.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Again, the source of our disagreement. I’m as Catholic as you. You are as much in division from me as I am with you. If either of us deny that, “we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. “

Hey Steve,
You have to tell me where to find the strike through function. I haven’t found it yet and you’re wearing it out.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Who warned us about the sins of, and the consequences for, schism, division and dissension? Who gets blamed but the ones who leave. Those who do it, and are in it, and keep it going. After 500 years, there are 10’s of thousands of individual organizations that think THEY are the Church. NONE of them are Catholic. Meaning all of THEM, are in one way or another, in all of those sins mentioned. Oh and let’s not forget heresies.,

It sounds like you want to lump all non-Catholic Christians into these categories, but this approach is not consistent with the Catechism.

Even the Catechism states that there is plenty of blame to share. The point that the catechism is making, and that JonNC is echoing, is that focusing on what divided us. assigning blame, and I will add, affixing these names to people is not conducive to the unity to which Christ has called us.
he sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

Who do I quote in my posts? Me? Nope! I quote Catholic sources all properly referenced.

Guanophore:

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

The Catholic Church didn’t cause all these divisions we see in Protestantism. All these divisions started with the founders of Protestantism, and then Protestantism went into its own serial division within itself.

 

[steve-b]

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation]

Until that is, when they are shown their division that is in place. Once they know, THEN they are guilty of division if they keep it going.
gunophore:

and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

That can be said of any heretic.

In order for one to be a heretic, first they must be validly baptized… THEN post baptism they accept error.
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

By definition all these are baptized individuals who deny some truth which must be believed with Catholic faith, The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers

guanophore:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Can a Catholic leave the Catholic Church and join one of these organizations with no problem for the Catholic? If NOT then WHY NOT? What’s being hidden in all the flowery language?

 

[Gorgias]

It is not about fracturing His Church. The Protestant Reformation is way overdue for another reform, a shaking loose of everything that is not of God.

So, if you happen to disagree with what shakes out when it shakes loose… it’s ok to leave your church and start another? Is that what Jesus taught? Or did He teach that there was one shepherd and one flock? (The ‘other sheep’ He spoke of are the unconverted, correct? Then there’s only one flock… and if they listen to multiple shepherds, it’s difficult to see how we might say that this is what Jesus wanted.)

What God did in Luther’s day in the CC is what God does all the time.

Divide His flock and allow them to do whatever they think is right? You know how the Book of Judges ends, don’t you? You know that this is presented to us as a bad thing, right?

 

[guanophore]

Who do I quote in my posts? Me? Nope! I quote Catholic sources all properly referenced.

What you don’t seem to realize it that you, also, interpret and apply what you are reading from your own frame of reference. Nevertheless, I commend your research and your passion about your faith.

The Catholic Church didn’t cause all these divisions we see in Protestantism. All these divisions started with the founders of Protestantism, and then Protestantism went into its own serial division within itself.

I am not saying that the Holy, Pure, Undefiled Bride of Christ “caused all these divisions”. What I am saying is that there were persons in positions of authority that were worldly (“secular”) and concerned more about the things of this life such as wealth and power than they were about fulfilling their Apostolic commission (Pope Leo and Cajeton among them).

It is not true that “all these divisions started with the founders of protestantism” . On the contrary, paragraph 817 makes it clear that “from the beginnings of the Church” there arose certain rifts. It is human nature to lust after Power, be greedy, and seek temporal influence. It is significant that your emboldened text stops short of the phrase following. It seems that you are not able to accept that Catholics have fallen short of God’s plan for unity, and that their actions have contributed to disunity.

Until that is, when they are shown their division that is in place. Once they know, THEN they are guilty of division if they keep it going.

I think you mean to say that when YOU have “shown” other posters on CAF that they are to “blame” they become culpable before God, but this is not the case. But I do agree, at the point where they are shown by the Holy Spirit that they are continuing division they are required by conscience to act.

By definition all these are baptized individuals who deny some truth which must be believed with Catholic faith,

Yes, but you are trying to apply this to people who are not baptized in the Catholic faith.

Can a Catholic leave the Catholic Church and join one of these organizations with no problem for the Catholic?

No.

If NOT then WHY NOT? What’s being hidden in all the flowery language?

Because the heresies that exist in Protestant theology can interfere with salvation. There is noting “hidden in flowery language”. The catechism is saying that the Holy Spirit works in and through these ecclesial communions. Threatening them with accusations and being on the Road to Hell is not conducive to bringing people into the fullness of faith.