Luther Did Not Start the Reformation

[guanophore]

Yes I hear your point, but attending Church alone is no guarantee that you will walk with God. I know many evangelicals who walk with God for an hour and a half on Sunday mornings. The rest of the week is all about living with secular standards.

Of course we are in agreement on this point, as there are many Catholics who do the same (I used to be one of them!) Attending Church does not equate to discipleship, any more than standing in my garage will make me a car.

What is needed is for those Church goers to enter discipleship. But discipleship requires hunger and not every believer has the hunger for God.

Such a hunger is more likely to be stimulated if one does not neglect the assembly, and certainly the hungry are more likely to be fed while in the assembly, or should be . I think what you are saying is that getting dragged to Mass did not create in you a relationship with Christ, without which you would not be saved from going to hell.

We both make the claim to the authority of the Apostles, but only one of us make this mysterious claim of oral tradition from the same Apostles.

In that case, would it not make most sense for the dialogue to occur with other Christians that also accept Sacred Tradition? And in fact, this is what occurs!

but when put to the test, what is claimed in oral tradition (on any given subject) is actually in contradiction to inspired scripture, forcing you to defend it from scripture.

First of all, the test applied, Sola Scriptura, is a deficient test because it was not created until 1500 years after the full deposit of faith was made to the Church. A valid test would have to be applied from standards before early councils, especially Nicea in 325 AD., and in 382 AD when the New Testament Canon was closed, based upon the authority of Sacred Tradition. Secondly, the “contradiction” only appears when those who have rejected the lens of Sacred Tradition read the Scriptures from a theological framework that is significantly different than the one used by those that penned those Scriptures. And third, we are not “forced to defend from Scripture”. On the contrary, this applies to those who practice the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Catholics know that Sacred Tradition is what produced the entire text and canon of the New Testament, and therefore, there is nothing in it that is in any way contradictory to the One Faith that produced it.

 

[guanophore]

And by doing so, you must ignore the obvious and plane meaning found, by redefining words and their meaning.

I can understand why “plane meaning” is different for those who are separated from Sacred Tradition. Once the meaning of the words are changed, the meaning of the whole is changed.

Such is the case of the listing of Mary’s Children, or the implication of the word “first-born.”

Naturally we will understand what we are reading differently, since we read with different lenses. It is interesting that ALL the reformers accepted the Sacred Tradition that Jesus was the only son of His mother!

Do you take responsibility for being an accuser of the brethren? I think it is right over your head.

Perhaps it is over my head. What was it that you thought I made an accusation?

the Cardinals and Bishops blew it. They did not understand the most basic foundational truth of the Gospel, and neither do you. Salvation is s free gift, apart from works like going to Church.

It does seem to me that this has been true in some cases. However, the Church, the Holy Bride of Christ, has this truth infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit. No amount of Cardinals and Bishops who “don’t get it” can stop the Church from being Holy and Pure, and the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Salvation is s free gift, apart from works like going to Church. Justification is a declaration by the Father, when He sees you express faith in His Son. The 4th commandment plays no role in the Gift. Easy stuff for those who have ears to hear it.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a free gift of God, apart from works. But she also teaches that those who love Christ will keep His commandments. His commandments are not burdensome.

But, since you put it that way, let me ask you a question, by virtue of an example: let’s suppose you accept the free gift of justification, but then, throughout your life, act in ways that are sinful (and do not repent). Would you assert that your salvation is not at risk? Or, would you think that your actions matter, to some extent?

Yeah, I think you will hit a wall with this one. tgG believes that no amount of sin can cause you to lose your salvation. You will still enter the pearly gates despite not living the faith. He says that actions matter, but only in this life. We can only experience the Kingdom in this life is we are obedient to Christ.

(P.S., the basic understanding of a gift is that it can be rejected by the recipient. )

I don’t think this is true for solid Calvanists. God saves who He wills, and they don’t have to really agree. It is an “alien” grace that saves them, and they cannot reject it.

 

[guanophore]

So Peter had a flawed understanding as well? “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.”

This would be AFTER one is saved by grace through faith. But you make a good point, the assembly of ourselves together really does function to make our calling and election more sure.

In this context, we read, “but (he) did not know her intimately until she gave birth to her firstborn son…” Matt. 1:25. But also Luke 2:7 confirms these points. Both of these passages suggest more than proving she had other children. They both prove she did not remain a virgin. The language here is not tricky or with hidden meaning.

This is really off the thread topic, but the use of the word “until” does not necessarily imply that anything occurred differently afterward.

“The waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month” Gen. 8:5 do you have any reason in this context to think the waters did not continue to recede?

Genesis 26:13
13 and the man became rich; he prospered more and more until he became very wealthy.

Do you derive from the context that he stopped prospering after he became wealthy?

And probably the best example of the use of the word “until” that does not imply a change afterward is

23And Saul’s daughter Michal bore no children from that day on until the day she died. 2 Sam.6.

Unless of course, you think Michal necessarily had children on the day she died, or perhaps after that? You see, “plain meaning” is different depending on your point of view. The Apostles passed to us that Jesus was the only son of Mary, and this was accepted even through the Reformers, until modern evangelicals even jettisoned this Sacred Tradition.

They both prove she did not remain a virgin.

I am sure that these passages “prove” that to you, since you are reading them with your Reformed Evangelical lenses. How did Christianity get this so confused from the time of the Apostles until you came along?

It was unnatural and contrary to Jewish custom and certainly the Law for married Jews to not have sexual relations in a marriage.

Yes, this would be quite an exception.

This is why some believed that Mary was given to Joseph because he was a widower and already had a whole family of children.

They were expected to obey the Genesis mandate to be fruitful and multiply. Mary and Joseph wouldn’t have been any different in their perspective.

Except if they were called by God to something different and exceptional. I don’t know about you, but if I were given the job of raising the Son of God I might not want to be distracted by anything.

 

[Agathon]

It was unnatural and contrary to Jewish custom and certainly the Law for married Jews to not have sexual relations in a marriage.

Was it? Because if one reads Philo he will catch on a Hebrew tradition that Moses refrained from sexual relations with his wife after God gave portions of His Spirit to the 70 elders. When the Israelites were to “see God” on Mount Sinai, they were required not to “lie with their wives.”

 

[tgGodsway]

Such a hunger is more likely to be stimulated if one does not neglect the assembly,

That could be true, but I think the best kind of hunger for God comes through brokenness. When we come to the end of ourselves to realizes God loves us. When we realize that we need God more than God needs us.

I realized this at the age of 21 when I re-entered the doors of my old home Church, Holy Rosary Catholic Church for the first time in years. I was living for self in those days and had absolutely no understanding of God nor any consciousness of Him. I came back to the Church one Sunday evening and fixed my eyes on the life-size crucifix that was mounted over the top of the altar. And I prayed for the very first time in my life. I remember exactly what I prayed. “Jesus, if you really exist, please prove it to me, I want to die.” It was then that I experienced this incredible presence fall upon me. At the time I did not know what it was, but then again, I realized Jesus touched me. I fell to the floor in the isle, right in the middle of the priest preparing the Eucharist. His back was towards me and did not see me on the floor. I was arrested in the goodness of Christ on the floor. There was a row of Nuns there on the front row. They saw what happened but I did not need them to help. I was totally arrested in a great and awesome love for me. It was His manifested presence resting on my body. I eventually got up off the floor and went home. From that day forward I found a new and wonderful friend in Jesus. If I had not been broken I may have missed a wonderful experience.

 

[tgGodsway]

but the use of the word “until” does not necessarily imply

Well, when you take this specific word and see how it is used in other like passages guess what it means? It means until.

For instance: In Matt. 2:9 the exact same Greek word is used to say, "When they had heard the king, they departed, and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, UNITL it came and stood over where the young child was.

The star went before them UNTIL it came and stood over the child. Once that happened we can be assured that it did not continue to “go before them.” Why? It now stood over the child. Until is the conjunction between the two.

Strongs: of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and space.)

Joseph did not have intimate relations with her UNITL the birth of Christ. It was then that he had intimate relations with Mary.

Guanophore, you are too smart to dance over words like this which have such a plain meaning.

 

[Agathon]

If you read the Psalms, you will remember the verse, “The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, until I place your enemies beneath Your feet” Does it mean Jesus is gonna stop sitting at the Father’s right hand AFTER He does this?

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a free gift of God, apart from works. But she also teaches that those who love Christ will keep His commandments. His commandments are not burdensome

I agree to one point. Loving Christ is the key to obedience. But can a believer not love his savior? and if so, will that disqualify him from the gift of eternal life? if so, on what bases?

I have always said, and may have said it on this site:

We are called to believe in Jesus.
This may lead to knowing Jesus, which in turn may lead
to loving Jesus, which in turn may lead to obeying Jesus. (in that order.)
Some people only get as far as to believe in Jesus. Other’s may come to know Him, as the Apostle stated “and the power of His resurrection.” And those who come to know Him will undoubtedly come to love Him, the very one they have come to know. And surely if they can love Him with all their heart, this will compel them to obey Him. “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

 

[guanophore]

Was it? Because if one reads Philo he will catch on a Hebrew tradition that Moses refrained from sexual relations with his wife after God gave portions of His Spirit to the 70 elders. When the Israelites were to “see God” on Mount Sinai, they were required not to “lie with their wives.”

It was not uncommon to have periods of abstinence, such as prior to going to battle, or in preparation for important ceremonies, but in general, Jews expected to be sexually active and fertile. It would be very rare for a Jew to be married who did not expect to be sexually active. Mary never expected to have any sexual relations.

 

[guanophore]

That could be true, but I think the best kind of hunger for God comes through brokenness. When we come to the end of ourselves to realizes God loves us. When we realize that we need God more than God needs us.

I think this is certainly one motivator. Some people grow up knowing the Lord, and never “hit bottom” so to speak. For others, there are many “conversions” throughout their lifetime. Not everyone has a powerful “born again” experience they can identify. But I do agree with you, at some point, every soul must come to the conviction that we need God. For some, this realization does not come until the day of judgment, when it is too late for them to do anything about it.

I realized this at the age of 21 when I re-entered the doors of my old home Church, Holy Rosary Catholic Church for the first time in years. I was living for self in those days and had absolutely no understanding of God nor any consciousness of Him.

What made you go through those doors?

I came back to the Church one Sunday evening and fixed my eyes on the life-size crucifix that was mounted over the top of the altar. And I prayed for the very first time in my life. I remember exactly what I prayed. “Jesus, if you really exist, please prove it to me, I want to die.” It was then that I experienced this incredible presence fall upon me.

This is awesome!

It was then that I experienced this incredible presence fall upon me. At the time I did not know what it was, but then again, I realized Jesus touched me. I fell to the floor in the isle, right in the middle of the priest preparing the Eucharist. His back was towards me and did not see me on the floor. I was arrested in the goodness of Christ on the floor.

Yes, I have had this experience also. It is as though all of my human abilities to remain on my feet gave way, and I was overcome with the power of God.

If I had not been broken I may have missed a wonderful experience.

I am with you in this. I think that not all of us need to come to such a state of brokenness, but it certainly does seem to expedite one’s perception that one needs God.

 

[guanophore]

when you take this specific word and see how it is used in other like passages guess what it means? It means until.

This is really the issue, is it not? While the Apostles taught that "until"meant what it means about Michal having children, modern evangelicals apply a different meaning to the passage based on other uses of “until”.

For instance: In Matt. 2:9 the exact same Greek word is used to say, "When they had heard the king, they departed, and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, UNITL it came and stood over where the young child was.

This is a good point. Are you asserting that the Star stopped resting this way when the Magi came to the child? THere is nothing in the text that should lead us to believe that the star “disappeared” after the Magi came. Just because it stood over the place where the child lay does not mean it failed to continue to exist. Your rendering is trying to show that there was a fundamental change after “until” but the text does not support this. The star continued to show where the child lay.

Joseph did not have intimate relations with her UNITL the birth of Christ. It was then that he had intimate relations with Mary.

No, tgG, there is nothing in the text that indicates Joseph ever had intimate relations with Mary, any more than Michal had children after the day of her death.

Guanophore, you are too smart to dance over words like this which have such a plain meaning.

I appreciate the compliment, tgG, but one thing I have done that is “smart” is to submit myself to the Teachings of the Apostles, preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit. When I read the scripture, I read it in the light of the faith of those who penned it.

Sometime when you study the Lucan passages on Mary, you will understand the nature of the Ark of the Covenant. Nothing “profane” (worldly) was ever put into that Ark. It was kept undefiled.

 

[Gorgias]

tgGodsway:

Yes I hear your point, but attending Church alone is no guarantee that you will walk with God. I know many evangelicals who walk with God for an hour and a half on Sunday mornings. The rest of the week is all about living with secular standards.

Of course we are in agreement on this point, as there are many Catholics who do the same (I used to be one of them!) Attending Church does not equate to discipleship, any more than standing in my garage will make me a car.

But, not going to your garage tends to mean that you’re not going to get to your intended destination. Putting a car in the garage is not the same thing as arriving at a destination (unless you think that taking ownership of the car provides assurance that you’ll get wherever you think you’re going.)

And that was the original point. It wasn’t “going to Church” = “salvation”, it was “of all the things that help keep your mind on God, keeping the Fourth Commandment is very important”!

 

[guanophore]

And that was the original point. It wasn’t “going to Church” = “salvation”, it was “of all the things that help keep your mind on God, keeping the Fourth Commandment is very important”!

I think that tgGodsway’s sister did not respond with this wording, so there was an assumption made that this was not part of the “formula”. He already thinks that Catholics believe they can work their way into heaven, so any observance of the commandments would be viewed through that lens.

 

[steve-b]

guanophore:

No, tgG. Solid adherence to doctrine is not toxic,and does not create a "toxic zone’. If this were true. then adherence to your own doctrine without compromise would also have to be an environment for toxicity and abuse. Human beings acting out of pride, arrogance, greed, etc. are what create toxicity and abuse, not the immutable doctrines of Christ. I thin

When I was a little boy, my oldest sister would be the one who would get all of us up to go to Mass on Sunday mornings. With the exception of my parents, my three siblings and I were faithful to attend morning mass every Sunday for most of my young life.

Years later, (about 5 years ago) I asked my sister why she was so zealously determined to drag all of us to Church every Sunday morning. Her answer shocked me. She didn’t blink an eye when she said, “I didn’t want you guys to go to hell.” What? … that’s right! I was afraid that if you stopped going to Mass you would go to hell." Where did you learn that?.. Church.

This is just one example of the toxicity people experience in the CC and many post-protestant Churches as well.

tg, This is why there is a judgement day, and permanent division that takes place on that day. Jesus told us in advance, only a few are saved. Obviously only a few listen AND obey