Luther on the Real Presence.

[raumzeitmc2]

Luther, of course, rejected Transubstantiation. However, he did retain a certain belief in the Real Presence, as is indicated by the following remarkable quote.

Writing to the Christians at Strasbourg, Luther said:

“If five years ago D. Carlstadt, or anybody else, had been able to persuade me that there is nothing but bread and wine in the Sacrament, he would, I confess, have rendered me a great service. I have undergone severe struggles, and have twisted and turned to get over it (belief in the Real Presence), because I was fully aware that it would have been the most sever blow which I could have dealt against Popery …. But I am in prison. I cannot escape, the text (“This is my body”) is too powerful, and no words can make it mean anything else.” {83}

*To the Christians at Strasburg Against the Spirit of Fanatical Enthusiasm, 1524.
*

Sources:

Luther’s Own Statements Concerning His Teaching and Its Results: Taken Exclusively from the Earliest and Best Editions of Luther’s German and Latin Works, by Henry O’Connor, S. J., New York, Benzinger Brothers, 1884. second ed., p. 40

Formerly entitled: The Only Reliable Evidence Concerning Martin Luther.

scribd.com/doc/2870205/Luthers-Own-Statements-Concerning-His-Teaching-and-Its-Results-3

Note 83, bottom of p. 40 reads:
Eyn brieff an die Christen Zu Straspurg widder den schwermer geyst. Der Herr kennet den weg der gerechten, aber Gotlosen weg wird vmbkommen.

books.google.com/books?id=xTWRGQAACAAJ&dq=%22Eyn+brieff+an+die+Christen+Zu+Straspurg+widder+den+schwermer+geyst%22&lr=

Luther’s Works, Volume 40: Church and Ministry II, Fortress Press (June 1, 1958), p. 68, ISBN 0800603400
amazon.com/Luthers-Works-40-Church-Ministry/dp/0800603400

I’ve compiled some additional Luther quotes here, if anyone’s interested:

scribd.com/doc/3935334?secret_password=1a1h12i1fb86j3w9a0pv

 

[JonNC]

Luther, of course, rejected Transubstantiation. However, he did retain a certain belief in the Real Presence, as is indicated by the following remarkable quote.

Writing to the Christians at Strasbourg, Luther said:

“If five years ago D. Carlstadt, or anybody else, had been able to persuade me that there is nothing but bread and wine in the Sacrament, he would, I confess, have rendered me a great service. I have undergone severe struggles, and have twisted and turned to get over it (belief in the Real Presence), because I was fully aware that it would have been the most sever blow which I could have dealt against Popery …. But I am in prison. I cannot escape, the text (“This is my body”) is too powerful, and no words can make it mean anything else.” {83}

*To the Christians at Strasburg Against the Spirit of Fanatical Enthusiasm, 1524.
*

Hi. Yeah, in spite of his total dislike for the papacy of the time, he couldn’t let go of the fact. His “certain” belief is well stated here:
Smalcald

1] Of the Sacrament of the Altar we hold that bread and wine in the Supper are the true body and blood of Christ, and are given and received not only by the godly, but also by wicked Christians.

Jon

BTW, welcome to CAF

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the quote and for the welcome!

Luther, it turns out, was quite an interesting and, in many ways, a quite likable fellow, for all his tirades against the pope. I only wish his writings were not so polemical, which is undoubtedly why many have been “hidden with embarrassment.”

Hopefully the day will come (and perhaps is already here?) when his works will be better known and the cause of ecumenism will thereby be better served.

It’s a shame that for so long many of his works have been kept from the public simply because of their polemical (not to mention naughty) nature. But thankfully, this may be slowly changing, if what the editor of his Table Talk says is any indication:

A special effort has been made to include pieces that have played a role in later polemical literature, pieces that have often been cited with triumph by unsympathetic writers or that have often been hidden with embarrassment by friendly writers.

• Theodore G. Tappert, editor and translator, Luther’s
  Table Talk, Luther’s Works, vol. 54, American Edition, 1967, Fortress Press, ISBN 0800603540, Introduction, p. xxiv.
  amazon.com/Luthers-Works-54-Table-Talk/dp/0800603540

Personally, I’m all for full and open disclosure of both the good and the bad on both sides of the Protestant and Catholic divide. Only in this way do I believe the various Christian bodies can ever hope to arrive at any sort of mutual understanding.

Take care now.

May the holy martyrs pray for us that we should not only celebrate their feasts but also imitate their virtues. Let us love their confession of faith, let us applaud their crowns, and let us not despair.

• St. Augustine, Sermon 299F:4:1, On the Birthday of the Holy Scillitan Martyrs. Possibly after 425 A. D.
  *The Works of Saint Augustine, A Translation for the 21st Century, *Sermons (273-305) on the Saints, Vol. 8, part III, Edmond Hill, John E. Rotelle, eds., and trs., New City Press, New York, ISBN 1565480600, p. 273.
  amazon.ca/Sermons-273-305-Saint-Augustine/dp/1565480600

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the quote and for the welcome!

Luther, it turns out, was quite an interesting and, in many ways, a quite likable fellow, for all his tirades against the pope. I only wish his writings were not so polemical, which is undoubtedly why many have been “hidden with embarrassment.”

Hopefully the day will come (and perhaps is already here?) when his works will be better known and the cause of ecumenism will thereby be better served.

It’s a shame that for so long many of his works have been kept from the public simply because of their polemical (not to mention naughty) nature. But thankfully, this may be slowly changing, if what the editor of his Table Talk says is any indication:

Personally, I’m all for full and open disclosure of both the good and the bad on both sides of the Protestant and Catholic divide. Only in this way do I believe the various Christian bodies can ever hope to arrive at any sort of mutual understanding.

Full and open disclosure of the polemics should then lead to two things;

1. an understanding that much of it from both sides are dated, and apply only to the time they were written.
2. that mutual forgiveness is Christ-like, leading us to discussions that take place, not with a cloud of bitterness hanging over us, but rather an air of Christian love for each other which allows the Holy Spirit to move us toward unity.
   Jon

 

[raumzeitmc2]

1. that mutual forgiveness is Christ-like, leading us to discussions that take place, not with a cloud of bitterness hanging over us, but rather an air of Christian love for each other which allows the Holy Spirit to move us toward unity.
   Jon

Amen to that!

In the meantime, let us also, while striving for unity, always be mindful of the dangers posed to the faith by those who, even if perhaps unintentionally, nevertheless teach error. Against such Augustine warned his congregation.

Believing, then, in the divine Trinity and threefold Unity, my dearly beloved, beware lest anyone draw you away from the faith and unity of the Catholic Church. For if anyone has preached a gospel to you other than that which you have received, let him be anathema.’ Hear, not me, but the Apostle who says: ‘But even if we or an angel from heaven have preached otherwise to you than that which you have received, let him be anathema.’

You undoubtedly see, my dearly beloved, how even in the very words of the holy Creed, as a conclusion to all the beliefs which pertain to the mystery of faith, a certain addition has been made so that the words ***'through the Holy Church’ ***might be used. Avoid, therefore, as much as possible, the various separated deceivers whose sects and names, in view of their large number, would take too long to mention now. As a matter of fact, I have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them just now. One thing I commend to your prayers, namely, that you turn away your mind and your attention in every respect from him who is not a Catholic, so that you may be able to gain remission of sins, resurrection of the body, and life everlasting through the one, true, and holy Catholic Church, in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are presented as one God to whom be honor and glory forever and ever.

Augustine, Sermon 215:9, At the Recitation of the Creed.

The Fathers of the Church, A New Translation, Volume 38 (1959), Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons (184-265), Roy Joseph Deferrari, ed., Catholic University of America, pp. 149-150.
archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009512mbp

Let us therefore aggressively (but always charitably) strive to combat error, even as we work and pray for the day when all Christians will again be one in what Augustine calls, the "unity of all nations” (letter 185:1:4).
newadvent.org/fathers/1102185.htm

In that day, we shall greet one another with a Holy Kiss.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_kiss

 

[gcnuss]

As another who prays for the day when all Christians are united and who believes, as Luther did, that the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present in Holy Communion, I’ll add a quotation from Luther’s Large Catechism:

Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar?

Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink. And as we have said of Baptism that it is not simple water, so here also we say the Sacrament is bread and wine, but not mere bread and wine, such as are ordinarily served at the table, but bread and wine comprehended in, and connected with, the Word of God.

It is the Word, I say, which makes and distinguishes this Sacrament, so that it is not mere bread and wine, but is, and is called, the body and blood of Christ. For it is said: Accedat verbum ad elementum, et fit sacramentum. If the Word be joined to the element, it becomes a Sacrament. This saying of St. Augustine is so properly and so well put that he has scarcely said anything better. The Word must make a Sacrament of the element, else it remains a mere element. Now, it is not the word or ordinance of a prince or emperor, but of the sublime Majesty, at whose feet all creatures should fall, and affirm it is as He says, and accept it with all reverence, fear, and humility.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

As another who prays for the day when all Christians are united and who believes, as Luther did, that the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present in Holy Communion, I’ll add a quotation from Luther’s Large Catechism:

And I pray that the day will come when all Christians come to an understanding of the sacrificial nature of the grace filled Eucharist. Unbelief in the Eucharist as a sacrifice is probably the greatest single obstacle to unity. And unfortunately, this unhappy situation is likely to continue for some time to come. So for now, I’ll just offer these words of Augustine as a reminder of how the Fathers viewed the Eucharist.

When his body, remember, was pierced by the lance, it poured forth the water and the blood by which he canceled our sins. Be mindful of this grace as you work out your salvation, since it is God who is at work in you, and approach with fear and trembling to partake of this altar. Recognize *in the bread *what hung on the cross, and in the cup what flowed from this side.

Sermon 228B:2:1, pp. 261-262.

… to remind [this congregation] of what the meaning is of such a great and divine sacrament, such a splendid and noble medicine, such a pure and simple sacrifice, which is not offered now just in the one earthly city of Jerusalem, nor in that tabernacle which was constructed by Moses, nor in the temple built by Solomon. These were just shadows of things to come (Col 2:17; Heb 10:1) But from the rising of the sun to its setting (Mal 1:11; Ps 113:3) it is offered as the prophets foretold, and as a sacrifice of praise to God, according to the grace of the New Testament.

Sermon 229B:1:1, p. 261.

Don’t hold yourselves cheap, seeing that the creator of all things and of you estimates your value so high, so dear, that he pours out for you every day the most precious blood of his only-begotten Son.” Sermon 216:3:1, p. 168.
“You see, those old sacrifices of the people of God also represented in a variety of ways this single one that was to come.

Sermon 228B:2:2 (forgot to copy page number).

No longer is a victim sought from the flocks for a blood sacrifice, nor is a sheep or a goat any more led to the divine altars, but now the sacrifice of time is the body and blood of the priest himself.

Sermon 229B:1:2, p. 261

Works of Saint Augustine, a Translation for the 21st Century: Sermons: 184-229Z, Part 3, volume 6. ISBN 1565480503.

Peace.

---

Prayer of Augustine:

Turn we to the Lord God, the Father Almighty, and with pure hearts offer to Him, so far as our meanness can, great and true thanks, with all our hearts praying His exceeding kindness, that of His good pleasure He would deign to hear our prayers, that by His Power He would drive out the enemy from our deeds and thoughts, that He would increase our faith, guide our understandings, give us spiritual thoughts, and lead us to His bliss, through Jesus Christ His Son our Lord, who lives and reigns with Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

See bottom of page here:
newadvent.org/fathers/1801150.htm

 

[Angainor]

I only wish his writings were not so polemical, which is undoubtedly why many have been “hidden with embarrassment.”%between%

What do you mean, quote-unquote hidden with embarrassment? Some of his later writings in his advanced age about Jews are certainly embarrassing but I don’t think anyone can say any of his works are “hidden.” Here are 55 volumes on CD-ROM right here. Most everything he wrote was in German, and he wrote a lot. It takes work to translate it and Lutherans have been doing that work themselves.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

What do you mean, quote-unquote hidden with embarrassment? Some of his later writings in his advanced age about Jews are certainly embarrassing but I don’t think anyone can say any of his works are “hidden.”

Well, I was just quoting the editor’s comments from Luther’s Table Talk.

A special effort has been made to include pieces that have played a role in later polemical literature, pieces that have often been cited with triumph by unsympathetic writers or that have often been hidden with embarrassment by friendly writers.

• Theodore G. Tappert, editor and translator, Luther’s Table Talk, Luther’s Works,vol. 54, American Edition , 1967, Fortress Press, ISBN 0800603540, Introduction, p. xxiv.

But even now, it is still true that many of Luther’s works have yet to be made readily available, still, as it were, “hidden with embarrassment.” You might try, for example, going to your average Christian bookstore (or any bookstore for that matter) to see if you can find any volumes of the American edition of Luther’s works on the shelves. I doubt you will.

Or you could try your public library. But I’d be willing to bet you wont find a single volume on the shelve there either. Sure, the library may have them, but you’ll have to request them.

But why should this be, if not because of the embarrassing nature of so many of the things Luther said?

Some samples of Luther’s more abusive language can be found here.

Most of the quotes are taken from volume 41 of Luther’s Works, which contains Against Hanswurst (1541), and *Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil *(1545).

And then there is the six volume study of Luther’s life by the Jesuit Hartmann Grisar, now online at the Internet Archive:

You might start with volume 3, p.231. See the paragraph that begins:

An alarming number of dirty expressions concerning the Pope and Catholicism occur in the Table-Talk.

Finally, there is this: the Facts About Luther by Patrick F. O’Hare. This is a very polemical book which lacks our modern ecumenical sensitivities, but I thought I’d include it just as reference.

Please don’t take any of this as an attack by me on Luther. I’m not in the least interested in attacking the man. I am only interested in knowing the truth, and in seeing all the aspects of the historical record brought to light, something I would hope everyone else here would want also.

I do wish you peace and God’s blessing.