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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I knew this thread was going to be a total disaster lol
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steido01
Guest
“Next to the Word of God, I consider music to be God’s greatest gift to Mankind. He who loves not music is a clodhopper indeed and deserves to hear nothing but the grunting of hogs and braying of assess for eternity.”
It captures both his concern for God’s people and devotion to finding ways to speak their language (in this case, music). It also highlights his relentless defense of God’s gifts - and a little bit of humor. In those ways, let us emulate him.
It captures both his concern for God’s people and devotion to finding ways to speak their language (in this case, music). It also highlights his relentless defense of God’s gifts - and a little bit of humor. In those ways, let us emulate him.
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steido01
Guest
I’m sorry you feel the need to attack one who has long been at rest, and who even your Popes have taken time to honor. Can I ask what sort of exposure to or study of Luther you’ve had? Do you, by chance, happen to know many Lutherans?
These do sound like strong words. Are you familiar with the context? The Peasants Revolt had taken the lives of countless people of nobility and churchmen. The peasants even destroyed some churches and threatened the stability of several Germanic states. His opinion, which was shared with the Catholic rulers and the Emperor, was that the rebellion needed to be ended immediately, for the good of all.
The context here is that if we focus on the Commandments, we will find ourselves completely unable to keep them. Or, worse, deceive ourselves and think ourselves without sin. We are poor, miserable, sinners. Instead, Luther explains, we are to focus on Christ. Isn’t the part that was neglected in this quote more important?
There was perhaps no harder critic on Luther than Luther. The context here is that he was explaining how easy it is for a Christian to trust what he can see, yet often difficult to trust God. How can we trust someone Who permits such horrible things to happen to us? Ultimately, Luther explains, we must remember that God makes us His children through baptism. You, me and Luther are all loved by Him.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
The various writings of Luther have been addressed many times by both Catholics and Lutherans and have long since been moved beyond in the international dialogue. As any Catholic who is actually in submission and filial obedience to the Holy See today should know. And you are responsible for knowing that, as any attentive Catholic ought to know the mind of the Holy See and the declarations which issue from it – be it the Holy Father personally or through his dicasteries.
No…the quotes you use, and the expressions you employ, as well as the manner used do speak to me…about you.
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TertiumQuid
Guest
Your favorite quote is not from “Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963.” True, it is a Table Talk comment, but whoever you cut-and-pasted this from provided you with bogus documentation. Here is page 487. This quote is not in entry 963. The quote is rather from WA TR 2, p. 582. Here is a translation of entry 2654a. The word translated “scoundrel” is translated as “rogue” below-
“A dispute about predestination should be avoided entirely. Staupitz said: if you want to dispute about predestination, begin with the wounds of Christ, and it will cease. But if you continue to debate about it, you will lose Christ, the Word, the sacraments, and everything. I forget everything about Christ and God when I come upon these thoughts and actually get to the point to imagining that God is a rogue. We must stay in the word, in which God is revealed to us and salvation is offered, if we believe him. But in thinking about predestination, we forget God. Then the laudate (praise) stops, and the blasphemate (blaspheme) begins. However, in Christ are hid all the treasures (Col. 2:3); outside Him all are locked up. Therefore, we should simply refuse to argue about election.” (Ewald Plass in What Luther Says, Volume 1, page 456).
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adamhovey1988
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My preferred Martin Luther quotes tend to be his insults. Don’t add much to his doctrine, but they are an interesting read. My dad was Lutheran (God rest his soul) and if it were’t for him, I probably wouldn’t even know Christ. If someone can find it, there’s a Luther insult generator around the interweb. Luther had a Catholic formation so some of his doctrines are going to be similar to Catholic ones. Luther…had some problems. I think he erred when he tried to change the Church’s theology. Saying the Church needed reform is accurate. The Church ALWAYS needs reform. I think Luther was wrong, but I think he was smart. I think he misplaced that intellect. Now, with regards to those that were saying we shouldn’t quote Luther because of what he did and who he was, I will remind, that some of my favourite quotes come from C.S. Lewis and John Wesley. Neither of whom were ever Catholic.
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TertiumQuid
Guest
…context anyone?
“Fie on the devil, and on our wicked flesh, that we cannot believe and trust in God, who hath given us so great and manifold benefits, and still doth give us all his goodnesses, I myself must confess, that I can put more trust in my wife,** and in every one of my friends**, than in Christ: when as, notwithstanding, I well know, that none among them all would do and suffer for me that which he suffered, namely, to be crucified and slain for me.”
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
You and your posts remind me of the joy of the dialogue of, what are now for me, years past. The unexpected fruit of an obedience I neither sought nor could have even reasonably expected, given my theological specialisations at the moment…but were tasks that gave so much to my life – both in terms of my person and my priesthood and, ultimately, my life in the academy.
I thank you for that reminder – even as I am reminded how the generation after me and those that will follow face as great a challenge as the topics of the dialogue, actually, from Catholics clinging to a past that no longer exists and to ideas that contemporary scholarship, on both sides of the table as well as those scholars who are in academic fields independent of both confessions, have completely discounted and set aside.
Most sad are those who neither immerse themselves in that scholarship or even the fruit of it, which emerges from the Holy See, on the one hand and also do not conform themselves to the positions that the Catholic Church holds today but who rather chart their own eclectic course, where submission and deference to the Holy See are the only adequate and appropriate attitude.
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MaryT777
Guest
Here’s a recent comment from the Pope;Luther is a heretic, so no, there’s isn’t a quote of his I like.
Pope Francis has taken part in events to commemorate the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation during his trip to Sweden.
The Pope appealed to Catholics and Lutherans to “mend” history and look with honesty at the past, “recognising error and seeking forgiveness”.
bbc.com/news/world-europe-37827736
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MaryT777
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I need to apologize to the forum; I thought we could have a decent conversation but of course this thread went South. I’ll have the moderator, Eric know if he hasn’t seen this thread yet.
The last thing I intended was for this to be insulting to the Lutherans. Given the recent comments by the Pope I was hoping Catholics might contribute to this thread in a positive manner.
“My Bad.”
Mary.
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Regina7
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But it appears that, at least here on CAF, we are not allowed to even discuss the error. Right, Don Reggio?
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TertiumQuid
Guest
What would be an interesting discussion (at least for me) is as to WHY the thread went “south.” I have my own theories- but would appreciate the comments of others.
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steido01
Guest
You’re too gracious, Father. I’d number myself among those who haven’t been blessed with an opportunity to delve deeply into ecumenical scholarship. I’m just hoping to further that Christian spirit.
God bless,
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LutheranScholar
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Here are some favorite quotes from Dr. Martin Luther that resonate with me:
prayingthegospels.com/martin-luther-church-postils-quotes-2/short-quotes-martin-luther/
“To be a Christian without prayer is no more possible than to be alive without breathing.” ―Martin Luther
“Our Lord has written the promise of resurrection, not in books alone, but in every leaf in springtime.” ― Martin Luther
“You must learn to call on the Lord. Don’t sit all alone or lie on the couch, shaking your head and letting your thoughts torture you. Don’t worry about how to get out of your situation or brood about your terrible life, how miserable you feel, and what a bad person you are. Instead, say, “Get a grip on yourself, you lazy bum! Fall on your knees, and raise your hands and eyes toward heaven. Read a psalm. Say the Lord’s Prayer, and tearfully tell God what you need.” ― Martin Luther, Faith Alone: A Daily Devotional
“If you want to change the world, pick up your pen and write.” ― Martin Luther
“If there is anything in us, it is not our own; it is a gift of God. But if it is a gift of God, then it is entirely a debt one owes to love, that is, to the law of Christ. And if it is a debt owed to love, then I must serve others with it, not myself. Thus my learning is not my own; it belongs to the unlearned and is the debt I owe them…My wisdom belongs to the foolish, my power to the oppressed. Thus my wealth belongs to the poor, my righteousness to the sinners.” ― Martin Luther
(Reply to the Diet of Worms) “Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns or teeth. Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason (I do not believe in the authority of either popes or councils by themselves, for it is plain that they have often erred and contradicted each other) in those Scriptures that I have presented, for my conscience is captive to the Word of God, I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.” ― Martin Luther
“Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God–
Naught else is worth believing.
Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.
I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!” ― Martin Luther
prayingthegospels.com/martin-luther-church-postils-quotes-2/short-quotes-martin-luther/
“To be a Christian without prayer is no more possible than to be alive without breathing.” ―Martin Luther
“Our Lord has written the promise of resurrection, not in books alone, but in every leaf in springtime.” ― Martin Luther
“You must learn to call on the Lord. Don’t sit all alone or lie on the couch, shaking your head and letting your thoughts torture you. Don’t worry about how to get out of your situation or brood about your terrible life, how miserable you feel, and what a bad person you are. Instead, say, “Get a grip on yourself, you lazy bum! Fall on your knees, and raise your hands and eyes toward heaven. Read a psalm. Say the Lord’s Prayer, and tearfully tell God what you need.” ― Martin Luther, Faith Alone: A Daily Devotional
“If you want to change the world, pick up your pen and write.” ― Martin Luther
“If there is anything in us, it is not our own; it is a gift of God. But if it is a gift of God, then it is entirely a debt one owes to love, that is, to the law of Christ. And if it is a debt owed to love, then I must serve others with it, not myself. Thus my learning is not my own; it belongs to the unlearned and is the debt I owe them…My wisdom belongs to the foolish, my power to the oppressed. Thus my wealth belongs to the poor, my righteousness to the sinners.” ― Martin Luther
(Reply to the Diet of Worms) “Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns or teeth. Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason (I do not believe in the authority of either popes or councils by themselves, for it is plain that they have often erred and contradicted each other) in those Scriptures that I have presented, for my conscience is captive to the Word of God, I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.” ― Martin Luther
“Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God–
Naught else is worth believing.
Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.
I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!” ― Martin Luther
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I don’t find that you have anything to apologise for at all. Quite to the contrary. You are not the one who did anything wrong.
It is nothing short of inimical to what was set forth in Unitatis Reditegratio for any Catholic to take upon themselves to speak in a way that contradicts what the Church articulates and what the Pope says on issues of Christian unity, from the Catholic perspective…and it was necessary to say that.
It is sad that your expectation, which was a reasonable one, was not fulfilled. It simply shows how much work there is yet to be done in actually educating Catholics as to what the Church holds today.
The problem did not in any way originate with you. But there is indeed a problem with Catholics who, more than fifty years after Unitatis Redintegratio, do not conform themselves to the methodology the Council Fathers prescribed and which the Holy See, in turn, faithfully and with zest took up…namely, that expression on the topics concerning ecumenism, and particularly the relations among those Christians with whom we are one in the Body of Christ through our common baptism, and above all how the Church views people, events, and declarations of the past are always guided by the Holy See firstly and then by the Bishops and those appointed by them as their delegates and vicars for matters ecumenical. It is what they articulate, in turn, that is to be faithfully transmitted by the voices of others who are not, themselves, the bishops of the Catholic world, who have succeeded over the intervening years the Council Fathers.
You have quite rightly referenced what Pope Francis said and did. It builds upon and extends what Pope Benedict said and did. Which, of course, builds upon what Saint John Paul II did. He and his pontificate proceed from the Blessed Paul VI, whose work in this field was the fruition of the ecumenical council which was called by Saint John XXIII and with initiatives of outreach that he first began. They, for the 21st century, provide the orientation of the Church of Rome.
The gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church, through these saints of our times and through what was one of the greatest of the ecumenical councils, was to re-order and re-orient the Church’s vision on an issue that the Spirit communicated to the Fathers of Vatican II was, in fact, both a “sign of the times” and a divine imperative in this epoch of the Church’s history and indeed of human history.
And we see this reiterated again and again…in the papal Magisterium and then taken up by the entire College of Bishops, which finds expression in the synods of bishops as well as at the level of the conferences and then the individual dioceses. Such indeed that, today, in this time of joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, the joint commemorations will be occurring not only at the level of the Holy Father and the dicasteries of the Holy See but in the individual dioceses around the world in the weeks and months ahead.
Of course, it bears repeating, as PCPCU has pointed out: what passed for scholarship in decades and centuries past, before Vatican II, was often little more than polemics and should simply be allowed to “fall by the wayside” as is its just desserts. Today, it is seen for what it really was by contemporary scholars and ecclesiastics in these fields and is set aside at the levels of which I speak.
In the time that I have followed this forum, I have been particularly impressed by both the Lutheran and Anglican participants who demonstrate an excellent knowledge from the perspective of their tradition as well as what Rome says today.
Happily, too, there are those Catholics here who I find do indeed have the mind of the Holy See.
You were being sarcastic? That’s totally outside the directions of the OP.That doesn’t make sense. Luther said them.
And I was being sarcastic. Those quotes are utterly reprehensible.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
It was definitely well intended as i see how you carefully worded the OP. It’s just something about that name Luther that gets folks here digging their heels in so to speak.
Personally, I don’t like how some try and vilify Luther as I think he was a good guy who was well intended. And if not him, a Luther type figure was bound to emerge anyday
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I agree.I agree and think Mary is to be commended for her intentions for the thread.
Jon
And I think when we get corrected by clergy and it’s fairly obvious we are in the wrong, we need to stand down.
We are all Christians here.
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