M
Mickey
Guest
I read your post James. You are not a moderator here. If you wish to chastise someone for offering an opinion, then you should refrain from offering your own.
Peace,
Mickey
- Status
Peace,
Mickey
A
Assurance
Guest
Steve,
I also note your comments here to Catholic Dude:
Steve, I do note that a while back I did post some things while not being aware of some of your posts ( I don’t know if you posted something while I was in the middle of writing a post - that may be so ). In any case, I just noticed this yesterday.
Could you please tell me where I have distorted your words? If I have made a mistake, I want to be upfront about that.
Lord knows how many times I have felt that I have been distorted and misrepresented here (and Luther), but in charity, I try not to chalk that up not to distortion, but to the fact that you and others simply do not understand what myself, Edwin (Contarini), and TertiumQuid are saying because of your presuppositonal framework.
Would you please afford me the same charity, Steve?
Love in Christ,
Assurance
PS - Yes, I have been writing about the issue of assurance as it relates to the office of the papacy teaching anti-Christian doctrine. I am not ashamed of this, nor do I hide it. I believe I invited people from this thread to check out my comments at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096&page=1&pp=100 and do so again now.
I also note your comments here to Catholic Dude:
How have I distorted your words? Could you give me an example? When I have made an honest mistake I have been upfront about my errors.
Steve, I do note that a while back I did post some things while not being aware of some of your posts ( I don’t know if you posted something while I was in the middle of writing a post - that may be so ). In any case, I just noticed this yesterday.
Could you please tell me where I have distorted your words? If I have made a mistake, I want to be upfront about that.
Lord knows how many times I have felt that I have been distorted and misrepresented here (and Luther), but in charity, I try not to chalk that up not to distortion, but to the fact that you and others simply do not understand what myself, Edwin (Contarini), and TertiumQuid are saying because of your presuppositonal framework.
Would you please afford me the same charity, Steve?
Love in Christ,
Assurance
PS - Yes, I have been writing about the issue of assurance as it relates to the office of the papacy teaching anti-Christian doctrine. I am not ashamed of this, nor do I hide it. I believe I invited people from this thread to check out my comments at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096&page=1&pp=100 and do so again now.
A
Assurance
Guest
Steve,
The posts I was not aware of for some reason were 437 and 438. I am genuinely sorry that I missed them, and I know had I seen them my comments in 439 and up would have been different.
In Christ,
Assurance
The posts I was not aware of for some reason were 437 and 438. I am genuinely sorry that I missed them, and I know had I seen them my comments in 439 and up would have been different.
In Christ,
Assurance
M
Mickey
Guest
Presuppositional framework is not an exclusively Catholic trait.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello James,
Better than going to verses which discuss “justification” would you not agree that it would be better to go to Jesus’ scriptures which teach us what we must to to go to heaven. Would you not agree that, in the great scheme of things, it is going to heaven by doing what Jesus teaches us to do to go to heaven, which is to love God, that superceeds all other things, including understanding “justification”?
NAB MAT 19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"NAB MAT 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **NAB LUK 10:25
On one occasion a lawyer stood up to pose him this problem: “Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:
**"You shall love the Lord your God **
**with all your heart, **
**with all your soul, **
**with all your strength, **
**and with all your mind; **
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live.”
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
TertiumQuid-
(concerning post463)
Also note in Ch6 what Paul says:10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
…17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
Here Paul says “let not sin reign in your mortal bodies…do not yeild your members to sin”, indicating we have a responsibility in this process. He goes onto say we have become “obedient from the HEART” and must do good works towards sanctification.
(concerning post463)
(First I put my notes in black in this quote, the gree text is what you highlighted.)
Also note in Ch6 what Paul says:10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
…17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
Here Paul says “let not sin reign in your mortal bodies…do not yeild your members to sin”, indicating we have a responsibility in this process. He goes onto say we have become “obedient from the HEART” and must do good works towards sanctification.
I agree with this, but I must be missing something. How can protestants claim they are assured of their salvation if sanctification is a daily battle?
I would agree with this.
I would also agree with this.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
TertiumQuid-
(concerning post464)
It says “provided we suffer with him” and “if you live according to the flesh you will die”.
(concerning post464)
Thats the initial justification, ie when the rope is thrown. If you keep reading this chapter you cite, Rm8, it says:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
It says “provided we suffer with him” and “if you live according to the flesh you will die”.
Keep reading what the passage says, Rm5:3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. He describes what this justification through faith means right here. Suffering, endurance, character, hope, all part of the salvation process.
Im not sure where we disagree here, this is the first stage of justification, there still is the “being saved” and “will be saved” stages.
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Hi Mickey,I read your post James. You are not a moderator here. If you wish to chastise someone for offering an opinion, then you should refrain from offering your own.
Peace,
Mickey
Perhaps it would be best if you stay out of this discussion. I need those i’m having discussions with to stay on track with the issues at hand. That was the basis of my criticism- I do not enjoy diversions into irrelevant points, and I will continue to point them out as needed.
So far, i’ve had a fairly pleasant discussion with Catholic Dude. Please don’t start a fire where there isn’t one.
Thanks,
James Swan
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Steven Merten:
This is probably the reason we will never have any type of fruitful discussion: I believe that in order to read the Bible properly, one must go to those specific passages of Scripture that speak the most fully and clearly on a particular doctrine. In the case of justification, that place in Scripture where this is discussed in the greatest length, and also the clearest is Paul’s letter to the Romans. Clear passages of scripture that spend the most time on a doctrine interpret the others. Interesting note, Catholic apologist Steve Ray writes, “The 'Protestant principle” of Scripture interpreting Scripture, is not a Protestant innovation at all. It has been taught and practiced from the earliest years in the Catholic Church, as a short review of the Church Fathers’ writings and the subsequent teaching of the Church clearly demonstrates" (Upon This Rock, 263-264).
Now, indeed Jesus mentions salvation, and he says things about works. However, if you want to read what God the Holy Spirit wrote about justification, I suggest you go to Romans. The overwhelming majority of the book deals with this subject.
Here’s an anology. If you get a new computer and printer, they come with instructions. Now, say you wanted to know how to hook up the printer. I’m sure the instruction manual mentions the printer in multiple places. There might be section that lists which type of printers are compatable with the computer. There might be a section on changing the cartridge. There might even be a safety section on using the printer. However, in order to learn how to hook up the printer, you have to go to the section of the manual that tells you how to hook up the printer.
If though you insist on applying a faulty method of intepretation, please explain John 6:28-29-
"Then they said to him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered them and said, “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
I put the words of Jesus in red especially for you.
Regards,
James Swan
No Steven, I wouldn’t agree to that and here’s why: I’m not sure about you, but I believe the real mastermind behind the Scriptures is the Holy Spirit. Thus, all the words of Scripture are equally vital and important. The Holy Spirit is just as much behind Romans 3 & 4 as He is behind the “red words of Jesus.”
This is probably the reason we will never have any type of fruitful discussion: I believe that in order to read the Bible properly, one must go to those specific passages of Scripture that speak the most fully and clearly on a particular doctrine. In the case of justification, that place in Scripture where this is discussed in the greatest length, and also the clearest is Paul’s letter to the Romans. Clear passages of scripture that spend the most time on a doctrine interpret the others. Interesting note, Catholic apologist Steve Ray writes, “The 'Protestant principle” of Scripture interpreting Scripture, is not a Protestant innovation at all. It has been taught and practiced from the earliest years in the Catholic Church, as a short review of the Church Fathers’ writings and the subsequent teaching of the Church clearly demonstrates" (Upon This Rock, 263-264).
Now, indeed Jesus mentions salvation, and he says things about works. However, if you want to read what God the Holy Spirit wrote about justification, I suggest you go to Romans. The overwhelming majority of the book deals with this subject.
Here’s an anology. If you get a new computer and printer, they come with instructions. Now, say you wanted to know how to hook up the printer. I’m sure the instruction manual mentions the printer in multiple places. There might be section that lists which type of printers are compatable with the computer. There might be a section on changing the cartridge. There might even be a safety section on using the printer. However, in order to learn how to hook up the printer, you have to go to the section of the manual that tells you how to hook up the printer.
If though you insist on applying a faulty method of intepretation, please explain John 6:28-29-
"Then they said to him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered them and said, “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
I put the words of Jesus in red especially for you.
Regards,
James Swan
M
Mickey
Guest
Is that a direct command?
And I don’t enjoy hypocrisy.
I’m not a pyromaniac.
Over and out.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Mickey,
You are certianly welcome to post on this thread. James likes to play Moderator. Ignor it!
Catholic Answers is the biggest Christian forum on the internet, in my opinion. Apologetics is the most active in posts, and most important forum at Catholic Answers in my opinion. Catholic Dude’s thread, “Luther Read! Read!” is the third most viewed thread, out of 10,967 threads, on the bigest forum, Apologetics, at the biggest Christian internet forum www.Catholic.com . With the cybre traffic Luther Read! Read! pulls down on a daily basis, it is rapidly headed to become the number one most viewed Christian thread on the internet and beyond. So if you want to be a part of Christian forum internet history, or if you want people to understand the errors of Luther so they are not decieved away from Jesus’ teachings, you go ahead and post Mickey. Don’t let the Protestants stop you. Why is a Protestant trying to control a Catholic, the biggest internet, thread, which certianly puts Luther’s errors in the spotlight, anyway?
Great job Catholic Dude and all those Catholic or non-Catholic who have participated in this great thread!
Hello James,
I have been working quite a bit lately but I will, hopefully, now have the weekend to read, contemplate and respond to your posts.
Peace,
Steven
M
Mickey
Guest
Steven Merten:
I would have vacated this thread much sooner if James could have owned up to his tartuffery. However, like his hero Martin Luther, James is unable to admit to his error. So now perhaps I’ll stay awhile.
Thank you Steven.
I would have vacated this thread much sooner if James could have owned up to his tartuffery. However, like his hero Martin Luther, James is unable to admit to his error. So now perhaps I’ll stay awhile.
M
Mickey
Guest
No. You take all the Scriptures, in context, along with Sacred Tradition. Then you can deal with the subject.
B
bekalc
Guest
Well James wrote about justification and he clearly says that its not by faith alone. And Paul himself said nothing else about faith working in love. No where did Paul say faith alone. He was clearly talking about works of the Jewish law.
Many Protestants also when they think about justification are simultanously talking about “salvation.” Justification was never a major part of Catholic theology before Luther, it was “salvation.” We have always had a concept of "initial and final justification. What it means is that intially am I right guys. You enter into grace with God on the basis of faith. There is nothing you can do on your to get yourself into a relationship of grace with God.
Where we insist is that when your in a relationship/covenant one with God your espected to obey God. Especially since your empowered by the Spirit and no longer according to Scripture slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. Scripture teaches we will be judged by our deeds. As my very Protestant anti Catholic mother said. Jesus clearly tells us we are going to be judged by our deeds. It’s the plain teaching of Scripture. All over Scripture.
So if the question is what must one do to get into heaven? Well than Jesus words about what one must do to get into heaven are very much pertinent. And well since Scripture interperts Scripture, you would think that Jesus words should interpert Paul, rather than Paul interperting Scripture. Since Paul is subject to Jesus.
Many Protestants also when they think about justification are simultanously talking about “salvation.” Justification was never a major part of Catholic theology before Luther, it was “salvation.” We have always had a concept of "initial and final justification. What it means is that intially am I right guys. You enter into grace with God on the basis of faith. There is nothing you can do on your to get yourself into a relationship of grace with God.
Where we insist is that when your in a relationship/covenant one with God your espected to obey God. Especially since your empowered by the Spirit and no longer according to Scripture slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. Scripture teaches we will be judged by our deeds. As my very Protestant anti Catholic mother said. Jesus clearly tells us we are going to be judged by our deeds. It’s the plain teaching of Scripture. All over Scripture.
So if the question is what must one do to get into heaven? Well than Jesus words about what one must do to get into heaven are very much pertinent. And well since Scripture interperts Scripture, you would think that Jesus words should interpert Paul, rather than Paul interperting Scripture. Since Paul is subject to Jesus.
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Hi Mickey,Thank you Steven.
I would have vacated this thread much sooner if James could have owned up to his tartuffery. However, like his hero Martin Luther, James is unable to admit to his error. So now perhaps I’ll stay awhile.
I will be ignoring anything further you put forth in this thread directed at me or about me, as i’m not the subject of this thread.
Regards,
James
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Catholic Dude,
I didn’t realize Luther’s treatise on Good Works was on-line:
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/work-02a.txt
I think you will find this treatise helpful to our discussion.
Steven Merten:
From the above mentioned treatise:
“We ought first to know that there are no good works except those which God has commanded, even as there is no sin except that which God has forbidden. Therefore whoever wishes to know and to do good works needs nothing else than to know God’s commandments. Thus Christ says, Matthew xix, “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” And when the young man asks Him, Matthew xix, what he shall do that he may inherit eternal life, Christ sets before him naught else but the Ten Commandments. Accordingly, we must learn how to distinguish among good works from the Commandments of God, and not from the appearance, the magnitude, or the number of the works themselves, nor from the judgment of men or of human law or custom, as we see has been done and still is done, because we are blind and despise the divine Commandments.”
So much for Luther “Hating” the teaching of Jesus.
Regards,
James Swan
I didn’t realize Luther’s treatise on Good Works was on-line:
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/work-02a.txt
I think you will find this treatise helpful to our discussion.
Steven Merten:
From the above mentioned treatise:
“We ought first to know that there are no good works except those which God has commanded, even as there is no sin except that which God has forbidden. Therefore whoever wishes to know and to do good works needs nothing else than to know God’s commandments. Thus Christ says, Matthew xix, “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” And when the young man asks Him, Matthew xix, what he shall do that he may inherit eternal life, Christ sets before him naught else but the Ten Commandments. Accordingly, we must learn how to distinguish among good works from the Commandments of God, and not from the appearance, the magnitude, or the number of the works themselves, nor from the judgment of men or of human law or custom, as we see has been done and still is done, because we are blind and despise the divine Commandments.”
So much for Luther “Hating” the teaching of Jesus.
Regards,
James Swan
B
bekalc
Guest
Yes. Tert but Luther didn’t believe these good works were necessary. He thought they were a mere fruit. He’d never say you must have good works, while Jesus said he will judge us according to our deeds. Frankly the real issue is free will.
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Hi Bekalc,
Thanks for your interest in this topic. As Steven has pointed out, this thread is quite long.I’m not sure if you’ve had time to read through it all. What you are inquiring about has already been discussed. My position on Luther’s view has been stated. For review, you can see my position here:
ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm
Also, I strongly suggest reading Luther himself on this subject-
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luthworks.html
It’s always best to work from a primary source when forming an opinion.
Also you can go back and read the dialog between myself and Catholic Dude in this thread.
On the other hand, the aspect of the will is indeed a factor- Unfortunately, I owe Catholic Dude many posts at this point, so I don’t think it would be fair to him if I focused my limited cyber-space time in this direction.
Apologies,
James Swan
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello James,
Please define Jesus biblical word “believe”. Please show us the scripture which supports your definition to God’s biblical word believe.
Believe
NAB JOH 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.
NIV PSA 78:32
In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe.NAB LUK 8:13
13: Those on the rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. They have no root; **they believe **for a while, but fall away in time of temptation.
NAB WIS 12:2
Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!NAB JOH 12:44
Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”
NAB MAT 7:21
"None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
NAB LUK 6:43
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not put into practice what I teach you?"
continued:
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Continued:
In scripture to believe in God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit means to do what God tells you to do. Jesus tells us that those who believe in John the Baptist are entering into heaven. How does one enter into heaven through belief in John the Baptist?
It is John the Baptist, like other Old Testament prophets, whom the Holy Spirit delivers God’s message of what people must do to go to heaven. Jesus tells us it is those who believe and obey the words that the Holy Spirit delivers through the human mouth of John the Baptist (**preaching a way of holiness), **who are entering into heaven.
NAB MAT 21:28 Parable of the Two Sons.
“What do you think of this case? There was a man who had two sons. He approached the elder and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ The son replied, ‘I am on my way, sir’ ; but he never went. Then the man came to his second son and said the same thing. This son said in reply, ‘No, I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. Which of the two did what the father wanted?” They said, “The second.” Jesus said to them, “I assure you that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you. When John came preaching a way of holiness, you put no faith in him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did believe in him. Yet even when you saw that, you did not repent and believe in him.”
In scripture to believe in God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit means to do what God tells you to do. Jesus tells us that those who believe in John the Baptist are entering into heaven. How does one enter into heaven through belief in John the Baptist?
It is John the Baptist, like other Old Testament prophets, whom the Holy Spirit delivers God’s message of what people must do to go to heaven. Jesus tells us it is those who believe and obey the words that the Holy Spirit delivers through the human mouth of John the Baptist (**preaching a way of holiness), **who are entering into heaven.
NAB MAT 21:28 Parable of the Two Sons.
“What do you think of this case? There was a man who had two sons. He approached the elder and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ The son replied, ‘I am on my way, sir’ ; but he never went. Then the man came to his second son and said the same thing. This son said in reply, ‘No, I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. Which of the two did what the father wanted?” They said, “The second.” Jesus said to them, “I assure you that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you. When John came preaching a way of holiness, you put no faith in him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did believe in him. Yet even when you saw that, you did not repent and believe in him.”
- Status