Luther! Read Read!

[Steven_Merten]

reen12:

“You have burdened My people with laws [and “interpretations”?]
of your own making.” [That is, you have taken the Mosaic
Law, which *was

entrusted to Moses, and layered on
burdensome commands of your own making {Oral Law} ]

The only way the “laws of your own making” can be
undone, in terms of the RCC, is the actual second
coming of Christ…the parousia.

“You have taken what *was *entrusted to you, and
burdened My people with laws of your *own *making.”

Those who were unable to endure the unendurable…the
distortion of the “good news”, and the obfuscation of same,
by those who were entrusted with the gospel - and who
proceeded, through the centuries, to generate man-made
laws, [doctrines, dogmas], all the while claiming that they
were defended, in this enterprise, by the protection and
guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Best to all,

reen

Hello reen,

I am not quoting man made laws. I am quoting the commandments of Jesus and the Father. I am quoting scripture defining obedience to God’s commandments as love for God and neighbor. I am quoting Jesus telling us to obey the ten commandments if we wish to enter into life. Did Luther do this?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Here is how far I have gotten in the Galatians commentary by Luther. Here is the Book, Im on Ch2 v16: CH2 v16

…
This shows how little insight the pope and the whole of his religious coterie have into spiritual matters, and how little they concern themselves with the spiritual health of their forlorn flocks. They cannot believe that the flesh is unable to think, speak, or do anything except against God. If they could see evil rooted in the nature of man, they would never entertain such silly dreams about man’s merit or worthiness.

…

**The true way of salvation is this.** First, a person must realize that he is a sinner, the kind of a sinner who is congenitally unable to do any good thing. "Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin." Those who seek to earn the grace of God by their own efforts are trying to please God with sins. They mock God, and provoke His anger. The first step on the way to salvation is to repent.

…

In contrast to the doting dreams of the scholastics, we teach this: First a person must learn to know himself from the Law. With the prophet he will then confess: “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” And, “there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” And, “against thee, thee only, have I sinned.”

Having been humbled by the Law, and having been brought to a right estimate of himself, a man will repent. He finds out that he is so depraved, that no strength, no works, no merits of his own will ever deliver him from his guilt. He will then understand the meaning of Paul’s words: “I am sold under sin”; and “they are all under sin.”

At this state a person begins to lament: “Who is going to help me?” In due time comes the Word of the Gospel, and says: “Son, thy sins are forgiven thee. Believe in Jesus Christ who was crucified for your sins. Remember, your sins have been imposed upon Christ.”

In this way are we delivered from sin. In this way are we justified and made heirs of everlasting life.

…

Here let me say, that these three things, faith, Christ, and imputation of righteousness, are to be joined together. Faith takes hold of Christ. God accounts this faith for righteousness.

This imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the Holy Spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, “that our sins are covered,” and that “God will not lay them to our charge.” Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake. Where Christ and faith are lacking, there is no remission or covering of sins, but only condemnation.

After we have taught faith in Christ, we teach good works. “Since you have found Christ by faith,” we say, “begin now to work and do well. Love God and your neighbor. Call upon God, give thanks unto Him, praise Him, confess Him. These are good works. Let them flow from a cheerful heart, because you have remission of sin in Christ.”

When crosses and afflictions come our way, we bear them patiently. “For Christ’s yoke is easy, and His burden is light.” When sin has been pardoned, and the conscience has been eased ofits dreadful load, a Christian can endure all things in Christ.

To give a short definition of a Christian: A Christian is not somebody chalks sin, because of his faith in Christ. This doctrine brings comfort to consciences in serious trouble. When a person is a Christian he is above law and sin. When the Law accuses him, and sin wants to drive the wits out of him, a Christian looks to Christ. A Christian is free. He has no master except Christ. A Christian is greater than the whole world.

…
The true way of becoming a Christian is to be justified by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law.

We know that we must also teach good works, but they must be taught in their proper turn, when the discussion is concerning works and not the article of justification.

Here the question arises by what means are we justified? We answer with Paul, “By faith only in Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works.” Not that we reject good works. Far from it. But we will not allow ourselves to be removed from the anchorage of our salvation.
Sofar I dont see where evil actions will hurt the “saved” person in any way, it looks like they have no bearing on the individual anymore.
I will get back to this ASAP because I dont have time to add my thoughts yet. Also there is more to this commentary which I havent gotten to yet.

 

[Contarini]

See his comments on chap. 5, verse 4.

Luther did not think that sin could separate a believing person fro God. You can find quotes from him all day long that say that. But he also believed that a believing person would not wilfully commit serious sin. Bear in mind that the Protestants defined “concupiscence” (the tendency toward sin that remains after baptism in all Christians) as sin. When Catholics read Luther saying “sin will always dwell in our flesh” they think he’s saying something like 'we will always be slaves to lust and anger, etc." But what he means is that we will always struggle with these things. In his sermons on the Sermon on the Mount he approves of the mortal/venial sin distinction with regard to lustful thoughts (technically he thought all sin was mortal, but in practice he clearly thought the distinction might be pastorally useful, which shows that he did think that there were certain sins a believer would not commit, or at least would immediately repent of).

Again, look at chap. 5, verse 6. Luther explicitly condemns the opinion that “faith infused” (i.e., the supernatural gift of faith) “can stand together with mortal sin.” Faith, Luther affirms, necessarily produces good works.

Even in the bits you cite he’s been asserting the value of good works following faith and the necessity of repentance as the first step toward faith. Luther’s theology did not affirm that you could have saving faith without good works. On the contrary, he denied that you could have any faith at all (in the sense of a gift of God rather than a mere opinion about religious subjects) without good works.

If you want to call him a heretic because he thought good works should be preached after faith, then go ahead. I think that would be silly, but what do I know? But I will bear witness against you if you claim that Luther thought you could have true faith without good works, because he emphatically said the opposite.

I think Luther did become more aware of the need for clarity on this point in the decade between the letter to Melanchthon and the Galatians commentary (the sermons on the Sermon on the Mount were from the same period as the second Galatians commentary). But if you read _Freedom of a Christian, contemporaneous with the letter to Melanchthon, you will see that there as well he insists that faith flows out into good works.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Steven Merten:

Hello Edwin,

In the intent to look at Luther fair-mindedly, can you show us where Luther teaches Protestants the correct answer is to the question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”

Well, until late in life Luther wasn’t teaching Protestants anything, because there weren’t any . . . .

But more to the point, if you asked Luther that question, he would say, “trust in the mercy of God in Christ, and don’t rely on your own works.” He would probably say that the point of Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler was that to fulfill God’s law through works you had to be perfect. And indeed, it does seem that Jesus was determined to “up the ante” until the RRY ran smack against a demand he couldn’t fulfill.

I’m not claiming that Luther was right in this interpretation, however. I think Luther’s teaching was a valid pastoral strategy for sensitive, burdened consciences, but he ought not to have turned it into the central dogma of the Church.

The fact that I want to be fair to Luther does not mean that I think he’s right. Luther is open to plenty of criticism. But we can only discuss the points where he was wrong once we have cleared away the silly charges based on a misreading of his rhetoric.

You may or may not know that in Luther’s catechetical literature he included the Ten Commandments along with the Lord’s Prayer and the Apostle’s Creed. This was the stuff every Christian was supposed to meditate on every day. If you read his Large Catechism, you can see clearly that he thought the Ten Commandments contained practical instruction for the Christian life. There’s no hint that he thought they were merely there in order to drive people to flee to the mercy of Christ (though he did think that was one of the main functions of the Law).

The same becomes clear if you look at his sermons on the Sermon on the Mount. You simply can’t read large swatches of Luther with anything approaching a fair mind and not become impressed with how seriously he took the Christian life, in a very traditional and orthodox way.

Edwin

 

[Steven_Merten]

Contarini:

Again, look at chap. 5, verse 6. Luther explicitly condemns the opinion that “faith infused” (i.e., the supernatural gift of faith) “can stand together with mortal sin.” Faith, Luther affirms, necessarily produces good works.

Even in the bits you cite he’s been asserting the value of good works following faith and the necessity of repentance as the first step toward faith. Luther’s theology did not affirm that you could have saving faith without good works. On the contrary, he denied that you could have any faith at all (in the sense of a gift of God rather than a mere opinion about religious subjects) without good works.

If you want to call him a heretic because he thought good works should be preached after faith, then go ahead. I think that would be silly, but what do I know? But I will bear witness against you if you claim that Luther thought you could have true faith without good works, because he emphatically said the opposite.

Edwin

Hello Edwin,

Good to hear that Luther absolutly did not preach “faith alone not works”. I actually hope this is true. Now if we could get the rest of the Protestants to throw this statement out with the garbage.

Do we agree that Jesus tells us that He will judge us according to our conduct? Those who have done right will go to heaven through Jesus blood and the evil doers will be damned.

Did Luther teach this?

NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

NAB REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

NAB MAT 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (ISA 58)

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB JOH 12:47

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."

**NAB LUK 13:23 **

“Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ And you will say, ‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’ Then he will say to you, ‘I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’ And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.

**NAB MAT 18:21 **

’You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."**NAB MAT 13:47-50 **

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.

NAB MAT 7:13

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

**NAB MAT 5:20 **

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven . "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

 

[Pax]

Edwin,

A great deal of what you said has merit. I’ve read quite a few of Luther’s sermons and other materials and some of it is quite good. I am, nevertheless, put off by him when he engages in certain forms of rhetoric. I am not going to claim any expertise on Luther, but I do encourage people to read his material. Some of what he says is extreme and I do not accept his defenders contention that it was merely stylistic sarcasm for the purpose of making a point.

Dave Armstrong has debated the issue of Luther’s more “interesting” remarks. For those that are interested in Luther there is plenty of reading to do. I suggest reading him for yourself and then deciding. IMHO “some” of the criticism of Luther is over the top, but I also believe that he made many statements that cannot be defended.

 

[reen12]

Some of Luther’s critical writings are available at:

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-home.html

and

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html

Best,

reen12

 

[GoldenArrow]

I also completely agree that we shouldn’t rejoice at the downfall of another. Is that the Christian attitude we should strive for?

We should rejoice at knowing the truth, even it it’s not pretty; therefore, Catholic Dude is right to rejoice in finding and revealing the truth about Martin Luther.

The site Catholic Dude referenced from is a Lutheran Website, a site supporting the views of Luther. There is no error, then, in considering the letter citing that quote to be representative of Luther’s views, because his followers consider it representative of their leader.

Thanks Catholic Dude. I also rejoice in having these links saved in my bookmarks. I will reveal this info on a need-to-know basis, with the motivation being the salvation of souls. I will not hesitate to debunk Martin Luther to save souls, if it need be done.

The only difference our approach to Apologetics is that I like to approach commonalities in belief first. I shine up the commonalities, and then start revealing the things the things exclusively Catholic, one by one, dogma by dogma. I slowly hand feed them the rest of the Truth. I show the person the real gold and the iron pyrite (fool’s gold). Through this process, I pray that he recognize the the real gold, Truth, on his own without my having to be aggressive.

After having done all of the above, if he still does not see the Truth, then I start debunking his leader. I generally debunk as a last measure. I like to do this type of Apologetics if I know the person in the “real world,” i.e. outside the Internet.

You and I simply take different approaches to Apologetics, but I certainly respect and recognize your method. I just have not personally not had much success with the more aggressive approach.

It’s hard to do one-on-one Apologetics online, and on the Internet, I skip steps, this post being one example where I’ve skipped down to the last step. LOL!

God bless you in your work! You are appreciated. Thanks for the information. I’ll use it carefully.

I just emailed this quote and letter to someone this evening. I know of a Catholic woman who converted to Lutheranism. She already knows all the Truths and should know better! I skipped right to the last step because using a soft approach on a very hard heart is inappropriate. It’s people such as this, Catholics turned Lutherans, who really need to read Luther’s writings.

 

[amercy]

mhansen:

Jesus said a lot of other things besides what you quote here. For every ten Scriptural quotes like the one you provided, I can find ten that would seem to support the opposite view…

Ok then. Go on…
Please give us ten quotes of Jesus where He says that ‘nothing can separate us from Him’.

Would appreciate it immensely if you could substantiate your claims.

AMercy.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

By Luther for Gal2:17-21 its a verse by verse commentary:

• VERSE 17. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

… The papists quote the words of Christ: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17.) With His own words they deny Christ and abolish faith in Him. Christ is made to lose His good name, His office, and His glory, and is demoted to the status of a law enforcer, reproving, terrifying, and chasing poor sinners around.
…

    Papists and Anabaptists deride us because we so earnestly     require faith. "Faith," they say, "makes men reckless." What do these law-workers know about faith, when they are so busy calling people back from baptism, from faith, from the promises of Christ to the Law? 

With their doctrine these lying sects of perdition deface the benefits of Christ to this day. They rob Christ of His glory as the Justifier of mankind and cast Him into the role of a minister of sin. They are like the false apostles. There is not a single one among them who knows the difference between law and grace.

** We can tell the difference. We do not here and now argue whether we ought to do good works, or whether the Law is any good, or whether the Law ought to be kept at all. We will discuss these questions some other time. We are now concerned with justification. Our opponents refuse to make this distinction. All they can do is to bellow that good works ought to be done. We know that. We know that good works ought to be done, but we will talk about that when the proper time comes. Now we are dealing with justification, and here good works should not be so much as mentioned.**
…

The Sacred Scriptures, particularly those of the New Testament, make frequent mention of faith in Christ. “Whosoever believeth in him is saved, shall not perish, shall have everlasting life, is not judged,” etc. In open contradiction to the Scriptures, our opponents misquote, “He that believeth in Christ is condemned, because he has faith without works.” Our opponents turn everything topsy-turvy. They make Christ over into a murderer, and Moses into a savior. Is not this horrible blasphemy?

How can you deal with this kind of talk? People say Im the one misrepresenting Luther? It looks to me like Luther won more converts by shameless half-truths and smear tactics than true representation and refutation of the opponent.

Luther is like a bad dream that doesnt end… …Whoever teaches that good works are indispensable unto salvation, that to gain heaven a person must suffer afflictions and follow the example of Christ and of the saints, is a minister of the Law, of sin, wrath, and of death, for the conscience knows how impossible it is for a person to fulfill the Law. Why, the Law makes trouble even for those who have the Holy Spirit. What will not the Law do in the case of the wicked who do not even have the Holy Spirit?
…
** All who say that faith alone in Christ does not justify a person, convert Christ into a minister of sin, a teacher of the Law, and a cruel tyrant who requires the impossible.** All merit-seekers take Christ for a new lawgiver.
…

    We must not drag good works into the article of justification as the monks do who maintain that not only good works, but also the punishment which evildoers suffer for their wicked deeds, deserve everlasting life. ...

…

These hypocrites do not know the first thing about grace, the Gospel, or Christ. They retain the appearance and the name of the Gospel and of Christ for a decoy only. In their confessional writings faith or the merit of Christ are never mentioned. In their writings they play up the merits of man, as can readily be seen from the following form of absolution used among the monks.

“God forgive thee, brother. The merit of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the blessed Saint Mary, always a virgin, and of all the saints; the merit of thy order, the strictness of thy religion, the humility of thy profession, the contrition of thy heart, the good works thou hast done and shalt do for the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, be available unto thee for the remission of thy sins, the increase of thy worth and grace, and the reward of everlasting life. Amen.”
** True, the merit of Christ is mentioned** in this formula of absolution. But if you look closer you will notice that Christ’s merit is belittled, while monkish merits are aggrandized. …

​

How does one deal with this kind of talk?

(cont. with verse 19-21)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont)

VERSE 19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
​

…
The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day. Our opponents teach, “If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live.” Paul, on the other hand, teaches, “We cannot live unto God unless we are dead unto the Law.” If we are dead unto the Law, the Law can have no power over us.
…

We have enough arguments right here to conclude that justification is by faith alone. How can the Law effect our justification, when Paul so plainly states that we must be dead to the Law if we want to live unto God? If we are dead to the Law and the Law is dead to us, how can it possibly contribute anything to our justification? There is nothing left for us but to be justified by faith alone.
VERSE 20. Who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The sophistical papists assert that a person is able by natural strength to love God long before grace has entered his heart, and to perform works of real merit. They believe they are able to fulfill the commandments of God. They believe they are able to do more than God expects of them, so that they are in a position to sell their superfluous merits to laymen, thereby saving themselves and others. They are saving nobody. On the contrary, they abolish the Gospel, they deride, deny, and blaspheme Christ, and call upon themselves the wrath of God. This is what they get for living in their own righteousness, and not in the faith of the Son of God.

    The papists will tell you to do the best you can, and God will     give you His grace. They have a rhyme for it:

• *"**God will no more require of man, Than of himself perform he can.**"* This may hold true in ordinary civic life. But the papists apply it to the spiritual realm where a person can perform nothing but sin, because he is sold under sin.
  

  Our opponents go even further than that. They say, nature is depraved, but the qualities of nature are untainted. Again we say: This may hold true in everyday life, but not in the spiritual life. In spiritual matters a person is by nature full of darkness, error, ignorance, malice, and perverseness in will and in mind.

  …
  Let us count the price. When you hear that such an enormous price was paid for you, will you still come along with your cowl, your shaven pate, your chastity, your obedience, your poverty, your works, your merits? What do you want with all these trappings? What good are the works of all men, and all the pains of the martyrs, in comparison with the pains of the Son of God dying on the Cross, so that there was not a drop of His precious blood, but it was all shed for your sins. If you could properly evaluate this incomparable price, you would throw all your ceremonies, vows, works, and merits into the ash can. What awful presumption to imagine that there is any work good enough to pacify God, when to pacify God required the invaluable price of the death and blood of His own and only Son?
  
  Who is this “me”? I, wretched and damnable sinner, dearly beloved of the Son of God. If I could by work or merit love the Son of God and come to Him, why should He have sacrificed Himself for me ? This shows how the papists ignore the Scriptures, particularly the doctrine of faith. If they had paid any attention at all to these words, that it was absolutely necessary for the Son of God to be given into death for me, they would never have invented so many hideous heresies.
  …
  
  For this is Antichrist’s doctrine: Faith is no good, unless it is reinforced by works. By this abominable doctrine Antichrist has spoiled, darkened, and buried the benefit of Christ, and in place of the grace of Christ and His Kingdom, he has established the doctrine of works and the kingdom of ceremonies.
  

   Most of this stuff is either direct contradiction of the Bible or lies about what the Church believs.

  The best example is that last line about the “Antichrist”, compare it to James2:26-26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
  Honestly the more of Luther’s stuff I read, the more glad I am that I read it, so that I can expose it for what it is.

 

[Steven_Merten]

quote=Catholic Dude

VERSE 19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.​

The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live." Paul, on the other hand, teaches, “We cannot live unto God unless we are dead unto the Law.” If we are dead unto the Law, the Law can have no power over us…

We have enough arguments right here to conclude that justification is by faith alone. How can the Law effect our justification, when Paul so plainly states that we must be dead to the Law if we want to live unto God? If we are dead to the Law and the Law is dead to us, how can it possibly contribute anything to our justification? There is nothing left for us but to be justified by faith alone..

**For this is Antichrist’s doctrine: **Faith is no good, unless it is reinforced by works.
[/quote]

Hey Edwin!

Catholic Dude is calling your bluff. Please clarify that Luther says obedience to the commandments is needed. Please clarify that Luther said the “opposite” of "faith alone

"I will bear witness against you if you claim that Luther thought you could have true faith without good works, because he emphatically said the opposite."

According to Catholic Dude’s quote, Luther is condeming his “opponant” Jesus who calls for us to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life.

NAB MAR 10:17

"Good Teacher, wha****t must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:

’You shall not kill;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
You shall not defraud;
Honor your father and your mother.’"

NAB JOH 12:47

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."

 

[Catholic_Dude]

19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. -Gal5
Here is all of what Luther says about v21: This is a hard saying, but very necessary for those false Christians and hypocrites who speak much about the Gospel, about faith, and the Spirit, yet live after the flesh. But this hard sentence is directed chiefly at the heretics who are large with their own self-importance, that they may be frightened into taking up the fight of the Spirit against the flesh.
From what I see here, according to Luther a “true” Christian CAN do the things listed in vv19-20 with no problem.

The next passage I want to see Luther explain is Gal 6:7-9-
7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.
Concerning verse 7 “whatever a man sows, that he will also reap”: These passages are all meant to benefit us ministers. I must say I do not find much pleasure in explaining these verses. I am made to appear as if I am speaking for my own benefit. If a minister preaches on money he is likely to be accused of covetousness. Still people must be told these things that they may know their duty over against their pastors. Our Savior says: “Eating and drinking such things as they give; for the laborer is worthy of his hire.” (Luke 10:7.) And Paul says elsewhere: “Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple?” and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained, that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." (I Cor. 9:13, 14.)
I dont see how that relates to reaping what one sows at all.
Now verse 8:This simile of sowing and reaping also refers to the proper support of ministers. “He that soweth to the Spirit,” i.e., he that honors the ministers of God is doing a spiritual thing and will reap everlasting life. “He that soweth to the flesh,” i.e., he that has nothing left for the ministers of God, but only thinks of himself, that person will reap of the flesh corruption, not only in this life but also in the life to come. The Apostle wants to stir up his readers to be generous to their pastors. That the ministers of the Church need support any man with common sense can see. Though this support is something physical the Apostle does not hesitate to call it sowing to the Spirit. When people scrape up everything they can lay their hands on and keep everything for themselves the Apostle calls it a sowing to the flesh. He pronounces those who sow to the Spirit blessed for this life and the life to come, while those who sow to the flesh are accursed now and forever.
Again I dont see what he is talking about. Does this passage have to do with “ministers” and support of them?
Now verse 9:

The Apostle intends soon to close his Epistle and therefore repeats once more the general exhortation unto good deeds. He means to say “Let us do good not only to the ministers of the Gospel, but to everybody, and let us do it without weariness.” It is easy enough to do good once or twice, but to keep on doing good without getting disgusted with the ingratitude of those whom we have benefited, that is not so easy. Therefore the Apostle does not only admonish us to do good, but to do good untiringly. For our encouragement he adds the promise: “For in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” “Wait for the harvest and then you will reap the reward of your sowing to the Spirit. Think of that when you do good and the ingratitude of men will not stop you from doing good.”
Again, where is this passage talking about “ministers” only? And the way he talks about doing good works, I dont see how he can trumpet Faith Alone in the previous passages.
The only logical conclusion is that evil (or good) works have no bearing on a “justified” Christian.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Im done looking in to what Luther has to say on Galatians. Reading what I just read is life draining.

I just looked into Luther’s Large Catechism which someone posted a link to, here is what it said concerning the Apostle’s Creed on “forgiveness of sins”:
We further believe that in this Christian Church we have forgiveness of sin, which is wrought through the holy Sacraments and Absolution, moreover, through all manner of consolatory promises of the entire Gospel. Therefore, whatever is to be preached concerning the Sacraments belongs here, and, in short, the whole Gospel and all the offices of Christianity, which also must be preached and taught without ceasing. For although the grace of God is secured through Christ, and sanctification is wrought by the Holy Ghost through the Word of God in the unity of the Christian Church, yet on account of our flesh which we bear about with us we are never without sin.
Now Im really CONFUSED! Is it Faith Alone or Sacraments?

See his comments on chap. 5, verse 4.

Luther did not think that sin could separate a believing person from God. …

Thats exactly what Im saying here is what he says in that commentary on 5:4-
If you know Christ at all, you know that good works do not serve unto righteousness, nor evil works unto condemnation. I do not want to withhold from good works their due praise, nor do I wish to encourage evil works. But when it comes to justification, I say, we must concentrate upon Christ alone, or else we make Him non-effective
I see he is not saying to go ahead and sin, BUT if you do NOTHING will happen. Now verse 4 continued:

VERSE 4. Ye are fallen from grace.

That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of     grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is     drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the     ship he falls into the water. **Those who fall from grace perish     no matter how they go about it.** Those who seek to be justified     by the Law are fallen from grace and are in grave danger of     eternal death. If this holds true in the case of those who     seek to be justified by the moral Law, what will become of     those, I should like to know, who endeavor to be justified by     their own regulations and vows? They will fall to the very     bottom of hell. "Oh, no," they say, "we will fly straight into     heaven. If you live according to the rules of Saint Francis,     Saint Dominick, Saint Benedict, you will obtain the peace and     mercy of God. If you perform the vows of chastity, obedience,     etc., you will be rewarded with everlasting life."** Let these     playthings of the devil go to the place where they came from**     and listen to what Paul has to say in this verse in accordance     with Christ's own teaching: "He that believeth in the Son of     God, hath everlasting life; but he that believeth not in the     Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth in him."

The words, "Ye are fallen from grace," must not be taken     lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose     the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness,     liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death     and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the     wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil,     and everlasting condemnation. 

     I dont see how it can be more clear, you pointed out these passages but they are crystal clear. Sins (as well as good works) do nothing to the person who has faith alone.

And on the case of 5:6 here is what luther says:
…Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that** without fruits faith serves no purpose.** To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
IM CONFUSED HERE. Its like he plays it both ways on people. One second works have nothing to do with it, now GOOD WORKS ARE REQUIRED???
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

 

[But_for_Grace]

…sola fides, sola fides, sola fides… Blah, Blah, Blah…
:banghead:
Search the Bible, there is only one verse that contains “faith alone”…

… Find it? It is in James and guess what, it is proceeded by the word NOT…

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24 ESV)

Luther was a bad Biblical Scholar, and from what works of his I have read a poor writer (though I am willing to admit that to a poor translator)

What did Luther do? He perverted the Gospel into something completely unbiblical. He removed an essential part of the foundation laid by Christ. But then again, Luther may have been the one who Paul prophesied about saying…

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (ESV)

and

1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Ti 1:6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. (ESV)

and many other such verses.

Did Paul forsee the Protestant Reformation?

 

[Jlcastagna]

Get the 3 hour CD set by Ken Hensley “Martin Luther the Rest of the Story”. All the insight one needs on Martin is contained in the CD set.

One is not saved by Faith alone, many times within the Bible we see that people not only had to believe but had to Obey **God **(Obeying God = Works).Where would we be today had Noah only believed in God and not **Obeyed God **by building the ark. Where would the Protestant Bible be today had Martin had his way and thrown Jimmy in the fire along with all the other books that he did not agree with. Thanks to Philipp Melanchthon the Protestants have as much of the Bible as they do.

By **Grace we are Saved, **so lets **Obey the Will of God **so that we may be filled with his Grace, which is a free gift.

 

[manualman]

Luther is more complex than most catholics believe.

The core problem behind Sola Fide is Luther’s view of the human condition.

Luther’s writings imply that he believed that at the Fall, man became fundamentally EVIL. This is the key difference from catholicism which says that man’s condition is now GOOD, but FALLEN. The basic goodness remains because we were created in the image of God! But a fatal flaw exists which prevents us from being totally good in the way God intended.

So poor Luther HAD to formulate his beliefs about the foundations of salvation around his understanding that man was totally depraved, totally without goodness. From that background, Sola Fide is the only way that made sense. His bleak view of the human condition prohibited him from acknowledging that the human will could choose goodness through Grace and actually begin to be sanctified here on earth. From his point of view, the acknowledgement that human action could play any role in sanctification was tantamount to presumption! (The idea that one could judge oneself worthy enough that God HAD to admit him to heaven)

I had extensive training by protestants in college who still hold tightly to the idea that man is inherently evil. This is the issue to tackle! Sola Fide will demolish itself once the protestant accepts the catholic notion of humanity being good, but fallen. Who cares if a protestant still pays lip service to SF if in his heart, he knows that we are called to sanctification in our lives here on earth?

 

[Steven_Merten]

(Luther)If you know Christ at all, you know that good works do not serve unto righteousness, nor evil works unto condemnation. I do not want to withhold from good works their due praise, nor do I wish to encourage evil works. But when it comes to justification, I say, we must concentrate upon Christ alone, or else we make Him non-effective

Jesus said the opposite of Luther. In Jesus’, “What ever you do for the least of my brothers…”, it is those who feed the poor who Jesus calls righteous. It is those who feed the poor who are judged by Jesus into heaven. It is those who do not feed the poor who Jesus tells us He judges to eternal damnation.

It is Luther who makes Jesus teaching “non-effective” to Protestants. It seems to be Luther who does not “know Christ at all”.

NAB MAT 25:31**“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another**, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **

 

[Catholicfriend]

Catholic Dude:

I kept hearing people say that luther said this:
No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Well I looked around and it means what it says.
I found the letter he said this HERE.
It is from a page devoted to Luther’s writings,
located HERE.

Im so happy I found it! Im saving this!
What do you think?

I think Luther, the so called “reformator” didn’t remember 1Cor 10:6-22, or 1John 5:16-17!! , you harden your heart if sin and not repent from it…or “are we stronger than He is”?!
Kind regards
Catholicfiend