Luther! Read Read!

[J.Boller]

I am both bad at guessing and unable to read profiles, apparently.

And you are absolutely right that the Catholic Church is not to blame. But then Luther was not even alive at the time.

 

[thistle]

angelmessenger:

Hi J,

-----“This is not to say that the Catholic Church is worse in any way. But when it comes to dictators it is definately not better”

Never the Church–Some members yes. Can anyone now give me some information on St John Chrysontom. I’d like to check the information regarding his anti-Jew writings too?

God bless

Jan

You can find everything Saint John Chrysostom wrote in the online Catholic Encyclopedia:

www.newadvent.org/fathers

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi Thistle,

Thank you for this–Gosh I’ve got a lot of his writings to go through! Never mind I might learn something by the time I get to the end of them.

God bless

Jan

 

[Contarini]

angelmessenger:

Hi,

----“So what you’re saying is that because he said some nasty and repellent things, Walker has the right to attribute to him other things that he didn’t say? Truth, apparently, doesn’t matter to you”

It matters---- but does it matter to you?— That is my question. I also said in my previous post that it didnt matter who had said these things that they too deserved to be ‘shown up’ for what they had done.

The evidence you asked for and the truth that the views of Luther unconsciously set the stage for the future of German nationalistic fanaticism read the book by William L. Shirer “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” there you will find documents which support this

God bless

Jan

Since you’re the one making the claim, and since this is not a book on Luther, suppose you tell me what these documents are so I can go look at them directly?

As for truth mattering, I repeat my earlier challenge: why aren’t you also on the Internet posting in horror about all the Catholics who said anti-Semitic things? Why are you fixated on Luther? Let the Lutherans worry about Luther, if you’re really interested in being even-handed. Clearly you have an ideological axe to grind here. Which is OK, but it means that you have to be extra careful not to be one-sided.

Edwin

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi Edwin,

My main concern is that through Luthers man made ‘doctrines’ many spilt from the Church of Christ.----Not only because of Luther, but because of other heretical reformers too! There are so many now who do not do what Christ commanded for salvation–that is my main concern.

If a Catholic has tried to distort the doctrines in any other way than what the Apostles taught then he should be cast out too since he can also lead the faithful astray!

I hope you see what I’m getting at here?

God bless

Jan

ps information on Luther can be found in Luther’s own writings.

 

[J.Boller]

Angelmessenger,

You weren’t, however, discussing Luther’s teachings of scripture.
You were talking about his view of Jews and his alledged influence on Hitler.´

Regards,
Jakob

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi jacob,

What I was showing was that a supposed ‘prophet of God’, as he is described by his followers, should not have these views— Hatred towards a race of people and actually wanting them to be exterminated!----and neither should anyone. I do agree with you though that Hitler was influenced by many others, including Margaret Sanger–whose ideologies are stamped on the Planned Parenthood Organisation–Abortion Centres----Our influences and examples have a knock on effect—and we reap the consequences!

If any theologian religious etc should show the same hatred then he/she should also be exposed–Now most importantly, and this is what I have been conveying to you, is that Luther was not a prophet of God–as can be seen from his writings— but a man torn by guilt who needed a quick fix–he found it in faith–‘alone’

God bless

Jan

 

[J.Boller]

Angelmessenger, I do not know anyone who considers Luther a prophet.

I also agree that Protestantism to him was a way out of scrupulousity or guilt, since he didn’t think that a human could ever do enough good deeds to redeem itself.

None of this is damaging to Proestant belief.

I do not know who Msrs. Sanger is. But I am sure that she is a bad person because she influenced Hitler. Seriously, you should stop using that argument. Saying that the people who influenced Hitler were evil and the ones who influenced Salazar were nice chaps is just not logical.

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi J,

-----“I also agree that Protestantism to him was a way out of scrupulousity or guilt, since he didn’t think that a human could ever do enough good deeds to redeem itself.”

Yes it does seem that he did suffer from scrupulousity and it had a bearing on his ‘new found’ ideas

—“None of this is damaging to Protestant belief.”

Can you explain what you mean by the above statement please?

----“Seriously, you should stop using that argument. Saying that the people who influenced Hitler were evil”

Actually I never said he was evil! ( I believe that satan used him however ) Martin Luther was (is) one of the most influential persons in history. it’s obvious then that his words effected many people—Luther changed the course of history in regards to faith and theology so is it any wonder then that the Nazis used Luther’s anti-semetic declarations to promote their anti-semetic theories? In this manner, some of Luther’s words, such as “that one burns their synagogues…” helped to justify Nazi actions against the Jews.

God bless

Jan

 

[J.Boller]

Can you explain what you mean by the above statement please?
Just that Protestants generally do not consider Luther neither a prophet nor an impeccable human being (although I still fail to see how he was worse than his contemporaries), we just think his reading of the Bible was correct.

Actually I never said he was evil! ( I believe that satan used him however )
Ok, good. But the argument that he is wrong, or that the other lady you mentioned is wrong, *simply because * they influenced Hitler is still illogical unless you accept that bad people can only be influenced in a bad way and that all people who influence a dictator are therefore bad. Salazar was just a counter-example.

Martin Luther was (is) one of the most influential persons in history. it’s obvious then that his words effected many people—Luther changed the course of history in regards to faith and theology so is it any wonder then that the Nazis used Luther’s anti-semetic declarations to promote their anti-semetic theories? In this manner, some of Luther’s words, such as “that one burns their synagogues…” helped to justify Nazi actions against the Jews.
Just imagine that Hitler had been a Catholic (he was a relatively unreligious man whose associates dabbled in Pagan thought, and before you mentioned it I assumed he had been raised Catholic like most Bavarians and Austrians) instead. Could he not have found just as many sources to back up his hatred of Jews?

 

[Steven_Merten]

J. Boller:

I also agree that Protestantism to him was a way out of scrupulousity or guilt, since he didn’t think that a human could ever do enough good deeds to redeem itself.

None of this is damaging to Proestant belief.

Hello J.

Can you see how Luther’s opposition and attacks on Jesus’ teachings If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments has dammaged Protestants understanding of Jesus’ teaching. Can you see how Luther’s opposition to Jesus teachings, damages Christ’s teachings that we will be judge into heaven through Jesus or hell based on conduct?

Luther****The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

Luther

No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
NAB GEN 3:1

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’" **But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!..”**NAB MAT 19:16"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"

NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."
NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)

. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

**NAB **REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi J,

—“We just think his reading of the Bible was correct.”

“We just think!”—You’ve placed your salvation on a man who you just ‘think’ might be right!I

Does God want works to accompany faith?

“What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,’ but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have good works, is dead…” (Jam. 2:14-26).

God bless

Jan

 

[J.Boller]

Hi Steve Merten,
I didn’t want to enter into a discussion on things I do not have the theological schooling to properly understand and debate, so I only picked on some logical problems in what Angelmessenger said, and that was not even so much to defend Protestantism as to attack a style of argument that I dislike.
Personally, though, I think that Luther was right in saying that no amount of deeds will justify us before the Almighty. HE is everything and we are nothing and only His grace will save us. I also think that it is essentially impossible to never break the commandments.
Contarii and others already said as much, however, so I have nothing to add.

Hi Angelmessenger,
You’ve placed your salvation on a man who you just ‘think’ might be right!I
No. Unless you speak of Jesus. Luther is not credited with infallibility, like I just said. Protestants place their salvation on the Bible.
If you’ll forgive me the disrespect, the notions of “ex cathedra” and Papal infallibility mean placing your salvation on a man you just think might be right.

“What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,’ but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have good works, is dead…” (Jam. 2:14-26).
I like that quote a lot. And I wish more people would live by it. But the way it affects our salvation has more to do with the fact that absense of deeds can slowly tear away at your faith, than with deeds holding saving power on their own. Or so Luther would say.

Regards,
Jakob

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi,

-----“If you’ll forgive me the disrespect, the notions of “ex cathedra” and Papal infallibility mean placing your salvation on a man you just think might be right.”

When the Pope speaks from the ‘chair’ we know he is right! It’s confirmed in scripture----Luther’s authority wasn’t

God bless

Jan

 

[Steven_Merten]

J. Boller:

Personally, though, I think that Luther was right in saying that no amount of deeds will justify us before the Almighty. HE is everything and we are nothing and only His grace will save us. I also think that it is essentially impossible to never break the commandments.
Contarii and others already said as much, however, so I have nothing to add.

Jakob

Hello Jakob,

So if someone were to ask you, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?” you would never give that person Jesus’ answer to obey the commandments? You find Jesus’ answer faulty? You would never say that Jesus will judge us on judgement day into heaven through Him or hell based on obedience to the commandments as Jesus teaches. Is this correct?

Obviously Jesus teaches mercy and forgiveness allong with His teaching to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. God tells us that obedience to His commandments is love for Him. God tells us we do not have to love Him perfectly through obedience. God only asks that we love Him through obedience with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength and with all our mind. Can you see how God’s great commandment to love God is fullfilled through our obedience to the commandments with all our strength. Can you see how this is what Jesus is saying when he tells us those who love God will live and also if you wish to enter into life obey the commandments?
NIV 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.NIV JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

**NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.” NAB LUK 10:25

On one occasion a lawyer stood up to pose him this problem: “Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:
"You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind;
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live.” NAB DEU 6:1

"These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest, so that you and your son and your grandson may fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey." The great commandment. Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

**NAB REV 22:12 **

"Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves.

 

[J.Boller]

Angelmessenger,
Luther is not credited with authority. The Bible is. Luther felt that he understood the Bible better than the Catholic Church and so do I (that he did, not that I do).

Steven Merten,
I think I would say to have faith in God, but I might add that you should love your neighbour, which implies doing good deeds. Then again, I am not Luther, nor a very good representative of Protestantism. Others will be able to answer much better what Luthyer would have answered, and have already done so.
The quote from 1JO 5,3 got me thinking, but essentially I believe that it is not possible to always love and never hate, so we need forgiveness. The difference between faith and deeds is a bit academic to me and doesn’t influence my personal relationship to God all that much. I will talk to someone about it, though.

I came into this thread because I found that some arguments were unfair. I will answer questions, but I am not the right person to educate anyone about Luther.

 

[CindyGia]

J. Boller:

You said: “I came into this thread because I found that some arguments were unfair.”

What’s “unfair?” I gather you are insinuating the “Catholic” argument (which is both sound and correct in all it’s capacity) to be “unfair?” - you must be a Protestant. I think it alittle cowardly to “hide in the shades” and ambush the thread with your opinions while not allowing others to view which religion (or not) you’re affiliated with.

BTW, all posters to this thread are absolutely brilliant. Protestants as well as Catholics, all are putting up a good scholarly theologian debate. However, being an “ex” Lutheran myself, I firmly believe that Luther was duped by Satan. It was Satan who inspired Luther to begin another religion; to take the masses of people away from the one TRUE church of God. It may seem all “good and holy” to be “saved” as the Protestants profess, but there’s something quite evil about that whole attitude. Before I became Catholic, and while accusing a Catholic woman of pagan worship and idolatry, this Catholic said to me (which was the catalyst in my conversion to Catholicism shortly after):
“If the Catholic Church is not the true church of God, then why is it that we are so hated? Wasn’t Jesus also hated and said (John 15:20) 20: Remember the word that I said to you, `A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you;” Don’t you think that anything that comes from Christ will try to be destroyed by Satan? And why is it that when ANYTHING bad happens within the church the media picks it up and tries to annililate the Church by constant media coverage, trying to tear it down? Would not anything that comes from Christ tried to be destroyed by Satan? And why is it that black magic occultist try to steal our Eucharist and after concocting their evil spells, must discard their paraphernalia in a Catholic cemetary or in a Catholic Church? And why is it that ONLY Catholic priests can exorcise Satan from poor possessed souls?"
Needless-to-say, I started RCIA classes about 2 weeks later because I knew that what she said was absolutely correct, and also that through all those years of being a Lutheran, a Baptist, a Methodist, and then some other odd sect - I realized that there was just “something not right!” Something was missing and I just “wasn’t getting it” while in those churches. There was more to be had with the love of God and possessing Him (literally) and I could feel this IN MY BONES!. That “more to be had” is the Sacraments Jesus left to His Church! He left behind Himself in the Blessed Sacrament! His Own Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist to feed our souls! As well as all the sacraments He instituted in His church - The ONE AND ONLY CHURCH OF CHRIST - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!

Inasmuch as some of these posts are brilliant, I had to sort of “skim” through them because some of the words were simply “over” my head. I’m not a scholar or even a “very learned” person academically - but I can tell you this, the Protestant religion is a religion started by Satan. It’s so well cloaked by his deceitful lies and the use of the word “Christianity” in front of it, that millions of people are being taken down the wrong path to - not Christ - but to the neverworld. However, I know that God in His great providence has willed this error of religion to become a great schism and heresy for a reason. I believe it is to show on Judgment Day His unending mercy - which will put Satan in such a frenzy, and Hell will literally freeze over! But I believe that even Protestants will enter Heaven, even without the sacraments of Holy Mother Church. There are many “mansions” in Heaven, and I believe that Protestants will have access to those mansions. It will all depend on their love of God and their love of neighbor and their good deeds.

But I feel terrible that Protestants just don’t “see” the deception put before them by Satan and a mere man (Luther) who started his own religion. He is the same likeness as that Smith guy (Mormons) and that Taze guy (JW) but most sad is that God has deigned to not lift the veil from their eyes to really see the truth. I pray for all peoples in other faiths or cults. But we all know (as Catholics) that one day ALL people will be united with the one Holy Catholic Church!
God Bless you all and keep up the good work! You are all in my prayers.

 

[J.Boller]

Cindy Gia,
I agree that the arguments from both sides in this are very fair. I was only speaking specifically of the Hitler argument which is an argument I hate because it is used to justify all sorts of actions.
Some of the early arguments against Luther were also a bit too simplified, but they were honestly meant and expanded upon later.

I recall intending to explain my own religion somewhere in this thread, but I probably didn’t. I did say quite clearly that I was not a Catholic, though.

So:
I am a member of the Lutheran-Protestant People’s Church of Denmark, and more influenced by Grundtvig than Kirkegård (being the two most influential Christian thinkers in my country).
I have no theological schooling and my historical knowledge is also limited–which I am sure shows.
I believe in ecumenia and I believe that Protestants hold no advantage over Catholics in the eyes of God.

I have nothing much to say to your other arguments, but since they were directed at me I willæ try to answer what my own experience tells me:
There is no great media coverage of Catholic scandals in my country, and what little there is is presented more as “US priests did this” than as “The Catholic Church did this”.
I think people dislike Protestants in Catholic countries about as much as Catholics in Protestant ones.
Satanists in my country tend to desecrate Protestant churches, as they are more common, but I think those people are simply deluded, anyway. The only “media attack” on Christianity in any form that I have ever seen was from a Liberalist-Conservative newspaper that ran a series of articles promoting atheism.

God’s Peace
Jakob

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi J,

-----Luther is not credited with authority. The Bible is. Luther felt that he understood the Bible better than the Catholic Church and so do I (that he did, not that I do).

Luther took upon himself the authority to change scripture --by removing books–adding words- and yet you say:
------" I am not the right person to educate anyone about Luther"

You are admitting here that you do not know too much about Luther --If I am correct in this then how can you possibily follow a man who you admit to being somewhat ignorant about?

God bless

Jan

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Steven Merten:

Hello Micheal,

Many times Jesus warns people which sins will damn their souls to hell. Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All It is important to Jesus to bring the strays back into the flock for eternal life. Jesus does not throw out the teaching that unrepentant sin is an obstical to eternal life in order to bring the strays back to His fold. The way that Jesus brings the strays back to the fold is by preaching the gospel, a way of holiness and repentance from sin.

"opposition to Christ’s teachings" Luther condemns Jesus teaching “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”. The Church of Luther’s day fought and condemned Luther who was leading a portion of the body of the Church away from Jesus teaching. So also should Vatican II era Church leaders if they are not. An ecumenical united body of the Church in hell is not the answer to division in the Church. Church leaders boldly preaching and protecting Jesus teaching to obey the commandments of God if they wish to enter into life is the only true path to ecumenical unity.

If Protestants truly believe that obedience to God, which is love for God, is the path to eternal life through Jesus and not some form of “faith alone” which elliminates or deephasises the importance of Christ’s teachings to obey the commandments to go to heaven through Him,

This is a gross misrepresentation of the teaching of the major Reformers. There is no excuse for it, when their writings, and the doctrinal statements of the Protestant Churches, are so easily available.

then let Protestants and Catholics unite on a Joint declaration that we all agree If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luther****The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

Luther

No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

NAB GEN 3:1

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” **But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!..”**NAB MAT 19:16"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"