Luther! Read Read!

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Yes we have to remember that the evangelicals down the street are pretty far from the reformers. Most of the really bad stuff that has come into Protestantism is not from the reformers, but from the different folks who split off from the churches of the reformers.
 
Gottle of Geer:
This is a gross misrepresentation of the teaching of the major Reformers. There is no excuse for it, when their writings, and the doctrinal statements of the Protestant Churches, are so easily available.
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Hello Michael,

We have been waiting for someone to show us in Luther’s works where he teaches Christ’s teaching to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. We also have not had anyone show us where Luther teaches that Jesus will judge us into heaven through Him or hell based on our conduct as Jesus does. We had come to the conclusion that Luther hated, opposed and did not teach these things that Jesus taught.

Please show us Luther preaching Jesus words If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments seeing that you claim it so “easily available” for you.

NAB MAT 19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" NAB JOH 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)

. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

**NAB **REV 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Michael,

We have been waiting for someone to show us in Luther’s works where he teaches Christ’s teaching to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. We also have not had anyone show us where Luther teaches that Jesus will judge us into heaven through Him or hell based on our conduct as Jesus does.
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But you have had explicit evidence that Luther taught that someone with true faith would not give in to the desires of the flesh. If you really think it’s heretical to say that someone will live a holy life out of gratitude rather than fear, then that’s your prerogative. But be very clear about just what you are criticizing.

And by the way, the continual repetition of lengthy proof-texts does not impress me very much. I’ve been around too many fundamentalists to find such tactics appealing.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
But you have had explicit evidence that Luther taught that someone with true faith would not give in to the desires of the flesh. If you really think it’s heretical to say that someone will live a holy life out of gratitude rather than fear, then that’s your prerogative. But be very clear about just what you are criticizing.

And by the way, the continual repetition of lengthy proof-texts does not impress me very much. I’ve been around too many fundamentalists to find such tactics appealing.

Edwin
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The last thing on my mind was trying to impress you Edwin.

So Michael, can you see how Protestants do not teach what Jesus teaches If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. Protestants oppose the thought of teaching people to obey the commandments if you wish to go to heavan. Have you found those “easily accessable” Luther writings that teach what Jesus taught? I think we all agree that there are none. Luther opposed Jesus teaching on this.

Luther
The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

NAB MAT 19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" NAB JOH 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)

. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. **NAB **REV 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
 
Steven Merten:
The last thing on my mind was trying to impress you Edwin.

So Michael, can you see how Protestants do not teach what Jesus teachesIf you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. Protestants oppose the thought of teaching people to obey the commandments if you wish to go to heavan. Have you found those “easily accessable” Luther writings that teach what Jesus taught? I think we all agree that there are none. Luther opposed Jesus teaching on this.
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Luther’s teaching on the Ten Commandments in his Small Catechism suggests otherwise, so no, I don’t agree:

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#tencommandments

I know far less of Luther than Contarini does - but I do know enough to recognise that Luther is being caricatured.

To broaden the attack on Luther’s morals into an attack on those Protestants in general, shows a distressing lack of familiarity with Protestant moral teaching.

Unless, of course, USA Protestantism is supposed to be a mirror -image of Lutheranism before 1546, when Luther died. But how could it be ? Catholicism of that time is vastly different from Catholicism today - Contarini’s posts mention some of the differences. It would absurd to treat USA Protestantism as though it were, all of it, somehow representative of Luther’s Lutheranism; if only because the USA is one country of many. Catholicism in the USA is certainly not identical with that of the UK: so one must allow for differences of many kinds, both between Lutheranism then and now, and Lutheranism in different countries now. As one must for Catholicism - or for any entity which has a history of several centuries and is not confined to one country.
Luther
The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."
Click to expand...
NAB MAT 19:16 “Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" NAB JOH 5:27 "The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."
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NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)
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. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. **NAB **REV 22:12 “Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
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angelmessenger:
Hi J,

-----Luther is not credited with authority. The Bible is. Luther felt that he understood the Bible better than the Catholic Church and so do I (that he did, not that I do).

Luther took upon himself the authority to change scripture --by removing books–adding words- and yet you say:
------" I am not the right person to educate anyone about Luther"

You are admitting here that you do not know too much about Luther --If I am correct in this then how can you possibily follow a man who you admit to being somewhat ignorant about?

God bless

Jan
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Do you know all there is to know of all the major pre- and post-reformation thinkers? I live in a Parish with three well-educated ministers and I read webpages like this one. I do not need to be an expert personally to know what is Christian conduct.

What books did Luther remove and what words did he add? I have to admit that if he really did that then my I will have to revise my faith somewhat.

Regards,
Jakob
 
Hi Jakob,

He took out 7 books of the OT and four New Testament books – Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation – and put them in an appendix without page numbers as well. These were later put back into the New Testament by other Protestants, but the seven books of the Old Testament were left out.

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was because they were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands – especially without warning them against them.

Why did he do it?----The deuterocanonicals teach Catholic doctrine, and for this reason they were taken out of the Old Testament by Martin Luther and placed in an appendix without page numbers

Do you trust the man who did this–when scripture warns us about adding and taking away? Another question you have to ask yourself–if the Books were all accepted for over a 1,000 years and later Luther questioned them–then how do you know you have the correct books at all?

God bless

Jan
 
He took out 7 books of the OT and four New Testament books – Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation – and put them in an appendix without page numbers as well. These were later put back into the New Testament by other Protestants, but the seven books of the Old Testament were left out.
IsFatherWrong said that James was not removed, though, but maybe he just meant that they were preserved in the appendix.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=944646&postcount=171
What books are missing from my OT, then?

Do you trust the man who did this–when scripture warns us about adding and taking away? Another question you have to ask yourself–if the Books were all accepted for over a 1,000 years and later Luther questioned them–then how do you know you have the correct books at all?
I don’t know if I should trust Luther. I think if I had been alive at the time, and barring sociological influence, I would have trusted him more than the Catholic Church, but today I wouldn’t trust him unquestionably. Thankfully, I don’t have to because he is dead.
Maybe I should back out of this thread since I am neither attacking nor defending Luther at this point.

I’m quite concerned to know that my OT should contain more than 40 books, though. That does not seem like a good thing, I admit.
 
Hi Jakob,

Luther took out—Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

----“Maybe I should back out of this thread since I am neither attacking nor defending Luther at this point.”

Some of us are here to learn the truth of the faith that Jesus and the Apostles left us. In doing this we serve God and get rid of the myths which surround the True Faith. I’ve been finding out some truths while I’ve been here also. Don’t give up Jakob stay with us. There are so many questions that need answering and if you have any doubts about what you have been taught then it can be thrashed out on here. Also as you have many doubts concerning Catholicism then we have to sort those out too.

You have a choice–to find the real truth or to ignore the promptings in your soul.—Then again have you any choice? When the Master calls–we have to answer.

God bless

Jan
 
This is a thread about Luther, though. And I wouldn’t want to change its focus.
The thing is, when I discuss my personal faith I practically never mention Luther, or the Pope for that matter. Much as I enjoy the discussion I am not contributing. But I’m not going anywhere.
I found the deutoronomy at bible.com/bible_search.html which is a fine site that comes in handy when I discuss the Bible in English–not that I do that very often.
I will read it so I can know what I’ve been missing.

Regards,
J
 
Angelmessenger - Do you trust the man who did this–when scripture warns us about adding and taking away? Another question you have to ask yourself–if the Books were all accepted for over a 1,000 years and later Luther questioned them–then how do you know you have the correct books at all?

this is just the point that we have danced around all this time, how can Luther do such things and not be placed on a list with such other “great reformers” as Arius, Marcion, Nestorius, Valentinius, etc. Why do we allow Luther to do this type of thing and accuse the others? Why not name Luther’s actions what they were? Beware of naming evil good and good evil.

J. Boller - I’m quite concerned to know that my OT should contain more than 40 books, though. That does not seem like a good thing, I admit.

This is another point that I feel very strongly about, how can someone accept an altered canon of scripture and then claim that altered canon to be the absolute rule of faith. I cannot and will not accept any canon other than that which was agreeded upon by the church councils, to do otherwise would be folly.

Also, you will not find the deutrocanonical books on bible.com, if you use e-sword I would suggest downloading the Douay-Rheim’s Translation, otherwise you can find it here scriptours.com/bible/

I would suggest starting with Wisdom and Sirach
 
But for Grace, thank you for the link. I started reading it.

To be fair, our ministers still study texts outside the Bible for many years so it is not like they have forever gone from Protestant tradition. I just think they should be in the Bible where I can read it as well.
 
Hi Jakob,

----“To be fair, our ministers still study texts outside the Bible for many years so it is not like they have forever gone from Protestant tradition. I just think they should be in the Bible where I can read it as well.”

The problem is that many Protestants won’t touch them now–You know the saying—“If it’s not in the BIble it doesn’t exist”---- Knowing that a ‘man’ can be so wrong about something God has given us should make his Bible-alone theory look very suspicious too!

If the truth of some Catholic doctrines are in those books, and they are, then how many people have gone to their judgement without knowing the whole truth?

God bless

Jan
 
The problem is that many Protestants won’t touch them now–You know the saying—“If it’s not in the BIble it doesn’t exist”
I don’t know that saying. I suspect it may be a thing of the English-speaking world.
I think the official stance of my church (but it is a very open church where individual ministers are allowed to disagree) is that these books are sources on how to be a Christian, but stop short of being inspired works.

I suppose that is not enough to make you think it is ok, but hopefully it will seem less ignorant.
 
NOT TO GET OFF SUBJECT HERE, BUT HAS ANYONE SEEN THIS? HAPPENED RECENTLY. AND I’M SURE IT WILL INSPIRE MANY MORE HATEFUL ANTI-CATHOLICS TO FOLLOW SUIT!

decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/051003/assault.shtml

ALSO:

Glasgow, Nov. 22, 2004 (CNA) - According to a recent study carried out by the Crown Office in Scotland into prosecutions for religious bigotry since the passing of new anti-sectarianism legislation ni 2003, Catholics are by far the most likely victims of sectarian hostility, reports BBC News.

The Crown’s study of prosecutions in June to December 2003, showed that in 63% of cases of sectarian abuse, the victims were Catholic, compared with 29% of victims who were Protestants, 1% who were Jews and 1% who were Muslim.

108 of the 450 prosecutions for religious bigotry that took place during that time were included in the study, and 68 of those consisted of crimes against Catholics. 31 crimes against Protestants, and one each against Muslims and Jews.
…
"These figures are frankly appalling,” he said. “That at least one religiously-motivated offence should take place in Scotland every day is bad enough, that almost two thirds of such crimes are directed against the Catholic community who comprise just 17% of the population is both alarming and saddening.”

NOW WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST BEING PERSECUTED? BECAUSE SATAN IS TRYING HIS DAMNEST TO DESTROY IT!
 
CindyGia, 1Timothy 3 deals with the desired qualities of bishops and deacons (my Danish translation gives words closer to “monitor” and “servant of the parish” respectively). 1Timothy 3:15 says:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I think your interpretation is that this means that the church should not be split. But it doesn’t say who will be right more than a thousand years later.

In my country, Catholics are fairly anonymous. But two influential politicians are spreading slander against Muslims which is so bad that you can find almost the same words in Hitler’s writings about Jews. If the level of persecution is proof that one faith is above others, then experience from my country tells me that Muslims or Jews are the most righteous.
 
Hi Jakob,
.
I think the official stance of my church (but it is a very open church where individual ministers are allowed to disagree) is that these books are sources on how to be a Christian, but stop short of being inspired works.

Just knowing that your ministers are allowed to disagree should tell you that they havn’t got the true faith—‘A house divided cannot stand’

As I said before if you and they accept the OT and the NT which were compiled by the Church, and declared to be inspired,–then how come you can reject these other books, which were also included in that same compilation, as not being inspired? It just doesn’t make sense! Think about this Jakob because if anyone had doubts about the 7 books–shouldn’t there be doubts also on the remaining books, which you have now, and which you say are inspired? After all it was the same Church who declared the Holy Spirit their Author too!

God bless

Jan
 
Hi Jakob,

—“I think your interpretation is that this means that the church should not be split. But it doesn’t say who will be right more than a thousand years later.”

You want to know which is the true Church then just look at the line of succession— it leads right back to the Apostles. Another way is reading testimonies from the early Christians who died for the faith. That is how I found the true Church 🙂

God bless

Jan
 
J. Boller:
CindyGia, 1Timothy 3 deals with the desired qualities of bishops and deacons (my Danish translation gives words closer to “monitor” and “servant of the parish” respectively). 1Timothy 3:15 says:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I think your interpretation is that this means that the church should not be split. But it doesn’t say who will be right more than a thousand years later.

In my country, Catholics are fairly anonymous. But two influential politicians are spreading slander against Muslims which is so bad that you can find almost the same words in Hitler’s writings about Jews. If the level of persecution is proof that one faith is above others, then experience from my country tells me that Muslims or Jews are the most righteous.
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Hey Jakob,

I think the fact that the media actually informs people about it gives the Jews and Muslims a positive “edge” in the matter. You yourself display a great sympathy for both religions it seems, and I’m sure, most people feel the same way you do about this sad situation.

The Catholic Church will always be persecuted and hated, and evil acts committed against it. National news will never cover any incident committed “against” the Catholic Church. It won’t come up on any national news channel. Why? because it was a crime commited to the Catholic Church and not a crime commited by the Catholic Church. But if it happened in a Mosque OR synogogue - it would have been picked up by every news channel, every news paper in the world!
 
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