Luther! Read Read!

[J.Boller]

Please excuse me if I am a lot faster to respond to political matters than religious ones. I am much more opinionated on those matters, and I like to think my arguments are better.

I think the fact that the media actually informs people about it gives the Jews and Muslims a positive “edge” in the matter. You yourself display a great sympathy for both religions it seems, and I’m sure, most people feel the same way you do about this sad situation.

The Catholic Church will always be persecuted and hated, and evil acts committed against it. National news will never cover any incident committed “against” the Catholic Church. It won’t come up on any national news channel. Why? because it was a crime commited to the Catholic Church and not a crime commited by the Catholic Church. But if it happened in a Mosque OR synogogue - it would have been picked up by every news channel, every news paper in the world!
I don’t know how things are where you live, but I don’t think what you describe is a global phenomenon.
You can claim that the media just doesn’t mention attacks on Catholics as much, but that is rather unsubstantiated. Especially since public debate where I live has been centered on trouble with Muslim immigrants for a long time and doesn’t mention any trouble with Catholics.
I don’t know if I have a great sympathy for those two religions. I certainly have concerns about the role of Islam in western society, but I also dislike to see the strong step on the weak.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

angelmessenger:

Hi Jakob,

—“I think your interpretation is that this means that the church should not be split. But it doesn’t say who will be right more than a thousand years later.”

You want to know which is the true Church then just look at the line of succession— it leads right back to the Apostles. Another way is reading testimonies from the early Christians who died for the faith. That is how I found the true Church

God bless

Jan

The argument from unbroken (?) organisational descent only works if one’s view of what the Church (not meaning the body ruled by the Bishop of Rome and the bishops in union with him) is meant by God to be is, that the Church’s organisational and visible and clerical elements are more important than other elements - such as its mission.

If one’s notion of the Church is the same as that of the CC, then of course one’s notion of what the Church should be, is going to be that of the CC; so that other notions of the Church, judged by CC notions of what the Church should be, are always going to seem to be wrong. So one will end up with a notion of the Church according to which the CC is alone legitimate, because that has ben assumed from the outset. As this is an argument in a circle, it will convince those who believe that the CC is uniquely the Church - but no one else.

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi,
—“If one’s notion of the Church is the same as that of the CC, then of course one’s notion of what the Church should be, is going to be that of the CC; so that other notions of the Church, judged by CC notions of what the Church should be, are always going to seem to be wrong. So one will end up with a notion of the Church according to which the CC is alone legitimate, because that has ben assumed from the outset. As this is an argument in a circle, it will convince those who believe that the CC is uniquely the Church - but no one else.”

i had to read that 6 times–to grasp what you were saying—lol

If the faith is the same as the early Church then you have the Church!

God bless

Jan

 

[CindyGia]

J. Boller:

I am much more opinionated on those matters, and I like to think my arguments are better. I don’t know how things are where you live, but I don’t think what you describe is a global phenomenon. You can claim that the media just doesn’t mention attacks on Catholics as much, but that is rather unsubstantiated. I may have to agree with you on this one because I am not very well educated regarding world politics. But I do know this, the Catholic Church is the most hated and persecuted in the world. Have alot of time to read? Well, here’s just a few for ya! By the way, I believe after reading this stuff now, that it just may be a “global phenomenon.” And it will only get worse in time as we enter the last ages.

As the Catholic Church finds new ways to approach the issue of “world peace”, it is faced with an unfortunate reality: currently no religious group in the world is subjected to more violence and persecution than Catholics. While the Church has been instrumental in eliminating the “discrimination” towards other religions in formerly Catholic countries, not all of those other religions have followed suit.
In particular, the cult of Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a “religion of peace”, has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden. Measures Catholic nations used to take to prevent the spread of error are subjected to the harsh condemnation of both secular revisionists and modern Catholics alike. But those same tactics employed in the Arabian counties of the Middle East are ignored out of a relativist sense of “tolerance”. The Church has decided to stop fighting its enemies in the interests of “religious liberty” aRecently, a highly-publicized recent massacre in a Pakistani Catholic Church has caused many local Catholics to stay home on Sundays rather than risk a repeat of such a violent attack. Christians comprise less than 3% of the almost exclusively Muslim population of Pakistan. Benjamin Bashir, 25, a member of St. Dominic´s Catholic Church, was riddled with 19 bullets as he guarded the strategic installations at the Quetta airport on Nov. 7. [Bashir] had been the sole provider for his mother and family since his father went blind, said Catholic Bishop Andrew Francis of Multan.4
and two days after that:

…more to come…next post…

 

[CindyGia]

continuation from last post…

…another Catholic was shot to death in Peshawar, capital of the northwest frontier province near the Afghan border. Married, with two small children, Waheed Paul was last seen by his wife on the morning of Nov. 9, as he went in the gates to his office. According to CRAA, an Afghan-run NGO that employed him as an accountant, he did not report for work that morning.5

AND HOW BOUT THIS…
From the time its independence was declared in 1821, Mexico had a troubled history: civil wars, dictatorships, coup d’états, revolutions (1876-1911)…Maximilian’s Empire (1863-67) was but a brief and very imperfect4 parentheses in the persecutions endured by the Church once the Spanish left: property despoiled, priests imprisoned, assassinations plotted, bishops expelled…Why so many misfortunes? A proverb provides the answer: “Poor Mexico! so far from God and so close to the United States…” The United States did not want a great Catholic power at their door. At the time of Mexican independence, they worried about this potential rival whose land mass roughly equaled their own, and whose population, though less numerous (6.5 millions of inhabitants versus 9.5 millions) had become, thanks to a very lively Catholic faith, a true nation, while the United States remained, and remains even now, the “Salad Bowl.”

HERE’S SOMETHING ELSE:
In Catholic Spain the visitor was surprised by the vehemence of anticlericalism among many men. It was undoubtedly prevalent in northern Europe during the wars of religion. Brutal anticlericalism was a factor in the Spanish Civil War. Robert Royal, a Catholic who has had a noteworthy academic career, is now president of the Washington-based Faith and Reason Institute. His well-received The Catholic Martyrs of the Twentieth Century (Crossroad, 2000, pp x, 430) devotes a chapter to the subject. He regrets that American and European intellectuals uncritical approval of the republic and stresses (as I do) the complexity of the situation. In the first part of the Civil War, priests were bound and placed in bullrings with wild bulls. Afterwards, like dead bulls after a bullfight, their ears were cut off. I had not heard this story, but I am willing to believe it. Certainly Royal is right to call attention to the persecution of Christians and other believers, who have not received the publicity of the Jewish Holocaust victims.
A major conference on this Holocaust has just been held. While no one denied it (not even David Irving does), there was a confrontation in which non-Jews accused the Jews of creating a Holocaust industry. This is indicative of the growing demand for an even-handed account of these persecutions, and of the resentment of modern Germans that they are suffering the consequences of events before their time. It is reminiscent of the resentment of the young Germans who supported Hitler.
Ronald Hilton - 7/19/00

one more post to come…

 

[CindyGia]

HERE’S MORE FRIEND:
Since the Communists took over China in 1949, tens of thousands of religious believers have been persecuted. Those who retain their Roman Catholic faith, who remain in communion with the Holy Father and the Universal Church and who refuse to join the government-sponsored Patriotic Association, are forced to go underground. About fifty underground bishops are taking care of ninety dioceses and eight million souls. They have practically no financial support from the free world, no churches and no weekly collections. Most priests must work as factory or farm workers and live below the poverty level to carry out their ministries. The Mass, prayer services and even praying over the dying are considered subversive activities because they are done without the government’s permission and are punishable by exorbitant fines, detention, house arrest, and sentences to jail or labor camps.
Failing to stamp out the Catholic Church, the Chinese government created its own church, called the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association, in 1957. The short-term objective of the Patriotic Association is to replace the Roman Catholic Church and implement a government-controlled church. Its long-term goal is to eliminate religion entirely in order to achieve a purely materialistic, autocratic society. However, the Patriotic Association did not factor in the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood of the martyrs, which is the seed of the Church. Instead of being destroyed, the population of the underground Catholic Church increased from about three million in the early 1950s to more than eight million today. In his 3 December 1996 speech, the Holy Father proudly referred to the underground church as “a precious jewel of the Catholic Church.”
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/history/moranindex.html

one more post to come…

 

[CindyGia]

HERE’S A GOOD ONE! HAPPENING RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S.
The Beginning of a Persecution Against Catholics is also the Beginning of a new Missionary Age.
On the Feast of the Ascension of the Lord I read an article in my local newspaper, the Virginian Pilot, entitled “Catholic Church officials should Not Use the Altar as a Battlefield.” The article was written by a Catholic attorney who did not understand the theological teaching of her own Church concerning the reception of the Sacrament we call the Eucharist. Oh, the article read as though she did, citing sources from the rich tradition that is Catholic Christian theology. However, as lawyers can do so well, she cited them in a manner that was completely incorrect. She did not agree with the teaching of her own Church and sought to change it by using a public forum to articulate her own agenda and make it sound “learned”.
This author and others like her are engaged in a form of “guerilla war”, theologically disagreeing with their own Church and using public forums to do so. That same week, I was invited to debate Linda Pieczynski, a leader of “Call to Action”, (a dissident Catholic group) on a Public Radio Station, WHY in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. In the discussion I noted that it is not the Clergy who are turning the issue of receiving communion into a political battlefield but rather some Catholic politicians who, though holding open positions in complete opposition to the teaching of their own Church, insist on coming forward to receive the Sacrament of “full communion” knowing full well that they are not in full communion. By taking this approach, they have put the Clergy of their Church in a very tenuous position.
Above the protestations of this Catholic belonging to the dissident group “Call to Action”, I pointed out the clear language found in the pertinent Canon Law of the Catholic Church (Canon 915 in the West with a parallel Canon in the Eastern Code) which not only addresses those who are excommunicate but also those who obstinately “persist in grave sin” - which is what these politicians are doing. The teaching of the Catholic Church on the inviolable dignity of every human person from conception to natural death and the absolute intrinsically evil nature of every procured abortion is beyond dispute. Catholics in public life who politically support this intrinsic evil, as a legal “right”, while professing something different in their identification with the Catholic faith, need to repent, go to confession, and then act in a manner consistent with the truth both privately and publicly.
They should also refrain from receiving the Sacrament of Full Communion until they are back in full communion with their Church. Out of a concern for their fellow Catholics as well as their own public witness, they should refrain from receiving the Sacrament in order to avoid causing grave scandal to the faithful. Finally, out of respect for the Bishops, Priests and Deacons, the hierarchy of the Church, they should act with both religious and personal integrity and stop fomenting dissension and public confusion concerning this matter. It is their public behavior that has occasioned their own breaking of communion and they should not add to a growing “feeding frenzy” by turning to public forums in an attempt to change the unchangeable teaching of their Church. Yet, they have done just that and the hostility they have unleashed against the catholic Church is growing.
The altar is NOT the battlefield; it is the place of safety, love and welcome for all who approach in full communion. The real war is being waged in the first home of the whole human race, the womb. The weapons being used on our first neighbors in the womb are chemical agents, instruments of torture and the errant sanctioning of the taking of human life as a legal “right.” Now, a new “thought police” from a growing culture of death and instrumentalism, are using a new “fifth column” (a portion of a co-operative Press that has lost all sense of objectivity) to attempt to obfuscate the issue.

Anyway, I’m sure you wouldn’t be able to read all this stuff, but I just wanted to show you that Catholic persecution is global. Did I happen to leave out Northern Ireland?
God Bless and take care.

 

[J.Boller]

CindyGia:

As the Catholic Church finds new ways to approach the issue of “world peace”, it is faced with an unfortunate reality: currently no religious group in the world is subjected to more violence and persecution than Catholics. While the Church has been instrumental in eliminating the “discrimination” towards other religions in formerly Catholic countries, not all of those other religions have followed suit.
In particular, the cult of Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a “religion of peace”, has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden. Measures Catholic nations used to take to prevent the spread of error are subjected to the harsh condemnation of both secular revisionists and modern Catholics alike. But those same tactics employed in the Arabian counties of the Middle East are ignored out of a relativist sense of “tolerance”. The Church has decided to stop fighting its enemies in the interests of “religious liberty” aRecently, a highly-publicized recent massacre in a Pakistani Catholic Church has caused many local Catholics to stay home on Sundays rather than risk a repeat of such a violent attack. Christians comprise less than 3% of the almost exclusively Muslim population of Pakistan. Benjamin Bashir, 25, a member of St. Dominic´s Catholic Church, was riddled with 19 bullets as he guarded the strategic installations at the Quetta airport on Nov. 7. [Bashir] had been the sole provider for his mother and family since his father went blind, said Catholic Bishop Andrew Francis of Multan.4
and two days after that:
…more to come…next post…

Those are some good examples. I can only condemn the actions described, but they all took ploace in predominantly Muslim countries where I doubt Protestants are more popular than Catholics–just as most Christians do not understand the difference between Sunni and Shia.

 

[J.Boller]

CindyGia:

(…)
AND HOW BOUT THIS…
From the time its independence was declared in 1821, Mexico had a troubled history: civil wars, dictatorships, coup d’états, revolutions (1876-1911)…Maximilian’s Empire (1863-67) was but a brief and very imperfect4 parentheses in the persecutions endured by the Church once the Spanish left: property despoiled, priests imprisoned, assassinations plotted, bishops expelled…Why so many misfortunes? A proverb provides the answer: “Poor Mexico! so far from God and so close to the United States…” The United States did not want a great Catholic power at their door. At the time of Mexican independence, they worried about this potential rival whose land mass roughly equaled their own, and whose population, though less numerous (6.5 millions of inhabitants versus 9.5 millions) had become, thanks to a very lively Catholic faith, a true nation, while the United States remained, and remains even now, the “Salad Bowl.”

How can you say that Mexico is a unified nation and the US is not, when Mexico is the country with a history of revolutions? Even now, there is a civil war going on in Mexico between the Zapatistas and the central government, and the US is definately not sponsoring that one.

CindyGia:

HERE’S SOMETHING ELSE:
In Catholic Spain the visitor was surprised by the vehemence of anticlericalism among many men. It was undoubtedly prevalent in northern Europe during the wars of religion. Brutal anticlericalism was a factor in the Spanish Civil War. Robert Royal, a Catholic who has had a noteworthy academic career, is now president of the Washington-based Faith and Reason Institute. His well-received The Catholic Martyrs of the Twentieth Century (Crossroad, 2000, pp x, 430) devotes a chapter to the subject. He regrets that American and European intellectuals uncritical approval of the republic and stresses (as I do) the complexity of the situation. In the first part of the Civil War, priests were bound and placed in bullrings with wild bulls. Afterwards, like dead bulls after a bullfight, their ears were cut off. I had not heard this story, but I am willing to believe it.

The Republic received a lot of support from independent intellectuals and the peoples, but no state ever helped it. The Phalangites, on the other hand were supported by both Hitler’s Germany, most of the Catholic clergy in Spain (I don’t know the official stance of the church), and later even the USA.
The Church was targeted exactly because it was (seen as being) on the side of the Phalangists, and let me assure you, if you enjoy such things as democracy, freedom of speech, and the right to preserve your ethnicity rather than be assimiliated into a culture that is not your own, then you would not enjoy living under Franco. And if you think it is wrong to bomb women and children of your own people and be allied to Adolf Hitler, then it should be very hard to support the Phalangists.
Now that does not excuse any attrocities committed against clergymen. I am willing to believe the bullfighter claim if I see some support for it, but assuming that your source does not lie I will add it to your examples of persecution of Catholics.

CindyGia:

Certainly Royal is right to call attention to the persecution of Christians and other believers, who have not received the publicity of the Jewish Holocaust victims.
A major conference on this Holocaust has just been held. While no one denied it (not even David Irving does), there was a confrontation in which non-Jews accused the Jews of creating a Holocaust industry. This is indicative of the growing demand for an even-handed account of these persecutions, and of the resentment of modern Germans that they are suffering the consequences of events before their time. It is reminiscent of the resentment of the young Germans who supported Hitler.
Ronald Hilton - 7/19/00
one more post to come…

Interestingly, the “Holocaust industry” argument is often used to condemn Israeli persecution of Palestine.
You are right of course, that Jews are not nearly as strongly persecuted anymore, but I see no evidence that they are less persecuted than Catholics (I could definately find as many examples of killed Jews as you have of Catholics) and it does not change the fact that there has never been a more thorough killing of members of a religion than the Holocaust.

 

[J.Boller]

CindyGia:

HERE’S MORE FRIEND:
Since the Communists took over China in 1949, tens of thousands of religious believers have been persecuted. Those who retain their Roman Catholic faith, who remain in communion with the Holy Father and the Universal Church and who refuse to join the government-sponsored Patriotic Association, are forced to go underground. About fifty underground bishops are taking care of ninety dioceses and eight million souls. They have practically no financial support from the free world, no churches and no weekly collections. Most priests must work as factory or farm workers and live below the poverty level to carry out their ministries. The Mass, prayer services and even praying over the dying are considered subversive activities because they are done without the government’s permission and are punishable by exorbitant fines, detention, house arrest, and sentences to jail or labor camps.
Failing to stamp out the Catholic Church, the Chinese government created its own church, called the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association, in 1957. The short-term objective of the Patriotic Association is to replace the Roman Catholic Church and implement a government-controlled church. Its long-term goal is to eliminate religion entirely in order to achieve a purely materialistic, autocratic society. However, the Patriotic Association did not factor in the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood of the martyrs, which is the seed of the Church. Instead of being destroyed, the population of the underground Catholic Church increased from about three million in the early 1950s to more than eight million today. In his 3 December 1996 speech, the Holy Father proudly referred to the underground church as “a precious jewel of the Catholic Church.”
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/history/moranindex.html
one more post to come…

The People’s Republic of China is, or used to be, a traditional Marxist communist state in which religion is seen as an oppressing force and atheism as freedom of the mind. It is against religion in general, not exclusively Catholicism.
That it has started its own (non-Roman) Catholic church shows us two things: a) It has become much less staunchly atheist and b) Catholicism is a popular religion in China which threatens the authorities.
I hope all the best for the underground Catholics.

 

[J.Boller]

CindyGia:

(…)
Anyway, I’m sure you wouldn’t be able to read all this stuff, but I just wanted to show you that Catholic persecution is global. Did I happen to leave out Northern Ireland?
God Bless and take care.

I’m sorry, but I’m not touching birth control with a ten-foot poker, and I think that portion refers more to inter-Catholic strife anyway.

You mentioned examples of persecution of Catholics around the world, but there are more than two hundred countries, and you did not mention them all. And I still have no reason to believe that persecution of Catholics is globally worse than persecution of any other religion.

Northern Ireland democratically decided to be a part of the UK. I can only condemn the Unionist groups, but the unrest in the region is caused as much by Catholics as Protestants.

Now, please understand that I do not want to “downplay” persecution of Catholics. I just don’t want it to be used as a political argument, anymore than I like to see Jews use the Holocaust or Protestants speak of the 17th century persecution of their faith as a reason they are more right than you.

Best regards,
Jakob

 

[Steven_Merten]

Gottle of Geer:
Luther’s teaching on the Ten Commandments in his Small Catechism suggests otherwise, so no, I don’t agree:

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#tencommandments

I know far less of Luther than Contarini does - but I do know enough to recognise that Luther is being caricatured.

Hello Micheal,

Luther taught the commandments. I have never had any argument there. Luther hated Jesus teaching If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. Did you find anywhere in your “easy access” to Luther’s writings where Luther teaches Protestants to obey the commandments if they wish to enter into life as Jesus does. Or were you just decieving us with your statement in post 277?

**
Gottle of Geer:
**This is a gross misrepresentation of the teaching of the major Reformers. There is no excuse for it, when their writings, and the doctrinal statements of the Protestant Churches, are so easily available.

Do you agree that Luther opposes Jesus teaching If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments**,** with all his strength, in everything he teaches? What do you find in your “easy access” to Luther’s teaching? Anything that remotely resembles Jesus answer to what we must to to share in everlasting life?

Luther****The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."
NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"

 

[J.Boller]

Steven Merten

Luther taught that you should obey the commandments. He didn’t teach that you would be damned if you broke one and prayed for forgiveness.

I believe everybody has said so already, though. You have also been told what Luther thought Jesus meant by Mat: 19:16

Regards,
Jakob

 

[Steven_Merten]

J. Boller:

Steven Merten

Luther taught that you should obey the commandments. He didn’t teach that you would be damned if you broke one and prayed for forgiveness.

I believe everybody has said so already, though. You have also been told what Luther thought Jesus meant by Mat: 19:16

Regards,
Jakob

Hello Jakob,

It is the focus point that Luther openly, greatly “opposed” Jesus direct teaching to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven. A very large part of Luther’s preaching, thinking and teaching is directly, greatly opposed to the concept of telling someone to obey the commandments if they wish to go to heaven. Luther was a “faith alone” guy who lothed any thought that freely choosing to obey God, out of love for God, could have any effect at all on bringing you into heaven.

No, Please tell me what Luther thought Jesus meant by If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Did Luther think that Jesus opposed Jesus many teachings to obey God if we wish to go to heaven? Jesus constantly tells us that we will be judged into heaven through Him or hell based on conduct.

Luther The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Jakob,

I also would be very interested if you could come up with some of Luther’s writings on Jesus judging the sheep and goats. Everyone on this thread, siding for Luther, always say, “I think Luther would say”. Well Luther wrote down a lot of things. We don’t need to summise what Luther “would say” in a situation where what Luther actually did say makes him look like an abomination. Please show us what Luther said about Jesus damning the goats for not feeding the least of His brothers and Jesus judging into eternal life the sheep who did care for the least of His brothers.

NAB MAT 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[J.Boller]

*No, Please tell me what Luther thought Jesus meant by If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Did Luther think that Jesus opposed Jesus many teachings to obey God if we wish to go to heaven? Jesus constantly tells us that we will be judged into heaven through Him or hell based on conduct. *
Luther thought that Jesus believed that it was impossible to follow the law perfectly. But that a good Christian would do good deeds.
I don’t think that clashes with your scripture quotes.

*I also would be very interested if you could come up with some of Luther’s writings on Jesus judging the sheep and goats. Everyone on this thread, siding for Luther, always say, “I think Luther would say”. Well Luther wrote down a lot of things. We don’t need to summise what Luther “would say” in a situation where what Luther actually did say makes him look like an abomination. Please show us what Luther said about Jesus damning the goats for not feeding the least of His brothers and Jesus judging into eternal life the sheep who did care for the least of His brothers. *
I don’t know what he said. I said before that if I am expected to defend Luther then I cannot contribute to the thread.
There are others who may know the quote you have in mind, but I am neither a historian nor a theologist. Please direct your question at the participants in general instead of just me. Or show us the quote you are thinking of.

 

[Steven_Merten]

J. Boller:

Luther thought that Jesus believed that it was impossible to follow the law perfectly. But that a good Christian would do good deeds.

Hello J,

Do we agree that the law does not tell us that we have to love God through obedience prefectly. The law states that we only have to love God through obedience with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind and with all our strength.
INT 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

**NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.”

NAB EXO 20:5

“. . . you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.” NAB DEU 6:1

"These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest, so that you and your son and your grandson may fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey." The great commandment. Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

 

[Steven_Merten]

If Jesus and the Father believed in “faith alone” why does God focus on repentance from sin to go to heaven rather than focusing on “faith alone” to go to heaven? Why did Jesus tell us we will be judged into heaven through Him or hell based on conduct rather than “faith alone”.

No one has come forward to give us quotes from Luther where Luther teaches us to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into heaven. No one has come forward with quotes from Luther where he teaches Jesus teachings that Jesus will judge men according to their conduct. Why did Luther not teach Jesus’ teachings but keep his distance from using Jesus’ teachings in his theology?

Luther perverted scriptures by excluding Jesus’ teachings and in this way Luther designed a perverted theology.

NAB JOH 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned." NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)
. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

**NAB **REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”
NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live

**NAB MAT **19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
NAB JOH 15:10

"You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and **live **in his love."
**NAB MAT **7:12

Enter through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to damnation is wide, the road is clear, and many choose to travel it. But how narrow is the gate that leads to life, how rough the road, and how few there are who find it!"

“Be on your guard against false prophets, who come to you in sheeps’ clothing but underneath are wolves on the prowl. You will know them by their deeds. Do you ever pick grapes from thronbushes, or figs from prickly plants? Never! Any sound tree bears good fruit, while a decayed tree bears bad fruit. A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit any more than a decayed tree can bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. You can tell a tree by its fruit. None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? Have we not exorcised demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well?” They I will declare to them solemnly, “I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!”

 

[Steven_Merten]

**NAB MAT **5:20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven . "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

NAB LUK 13:23

“Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ And you will say, ‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’ Then he will say to you, ‘I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’ And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom** of God and you yourselves cast out.**

**NAB MAT **18:21

’You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."

**NAB MAT 13:47-50 **

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.