Luther! Read Read!

[Steven_Merten]

LUK 16:19 The Rich Man and Lazarus

“There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here,** whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours**.’ He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[johnpaullover]

What I think is the big problem, is Sola Scriptura. It is logically incorrect. It is mathematically incorrect. It is theologically incorrect.

How does the Protestant hold and maintain this DOGMA and TRADITION? Yes I said TRADITION and I WILL SAY IT AS MUCH AS I LIKE!!!

Pass the paper bag please.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

angelmessenger:

Hi,
—“If one’s notion of the Church is the same as that of the CC, then of course one’s notion of what the Church should be, is going to be that of the CC; so that other notions of the Church, judged by CC notions of what the Church should be, are always going to seem to be wrong. So one will end up with a notion of the Church according to which the CC is alone legitimate, because that has ben assumed from the outset. As this is an argument in a circle, it will convince those who believe that the CC is uniquely the Church - but no one else.”

i had to read that 6 times–to grasp what you were saying—lol

If the faith is the same as the early Church then you have the Church!

God bless

Jan

And that is one of the central issues between our hypothetical Lutheran, and Catholics

Partly because it is far from obvious that the CC’s Faith, is the same as that of the early Church.

I’m glad you could make sense of my post - sorry if it was obscurely phrased.

 

[Assurance]

Stever Merten,

You said:

The law states that we only have to love God through obedience with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind and with all our strength.

If the law states that we ONLY have to love God through obedience with ALL our hear, with ALL our sould, with ALL our mind and with ALL our strength, I am confused why you don’t think that means perfectly. It sounds like it to me. Help me out with why it doesn’t mean perfectly.

I think it does means perfectly - at least when its given as a response to the question “How can I be saved”. No, I think you are rationalizing those words.

You like to quote that passage from Matthew 19. Let’s look at it in fuller context:

16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Ex. 20.13 · Deut. 5.17 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Ex. 20.14 · Deut. 5.18 Thou shalt not steal, Ex. 20.15 · Deut. 5.19 Thou shalt not bear false witness, Ex. 20.16 · Deut. 5.20

19 Honor thy father and thy mother: Ex. 20.12 · Deut. 5.16 and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Lev. 19.18

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions…

(I’d include the rest but I’d be over the character limit)

Steve, I am thinking about these two verses in particular:

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

I contend that Jesus uses the Law to break this man. This man is proud, and thinks that he can be justified by his keeping of the commandments - by His love of God. Jesus will not give him a word of comfort (like Paul gives the Philipian jailer in Acts when he asks the same question: “What must I do to be saved?”) because this man does not think that he needs to be justified by God’s forgiveness (like the man in Luke 17: “God have mercy on me a sinner”) but can be rather by his good behavior and conduct.

In short, since the man attempts to rationalize his life before God on the basis of his good following of the commandments, Jesus entertains this idea that one can be justified in such a way, and raises the requirements. The point is that no one can get in that way - no one except Jesus that is!

And if we are with Jesus, we share in His righteousness, and so we actually can be saved!

As a Catholic, you are required to believe that once the stain of original sin is removed, you are able to reach perfection in this life and are actually capable of not sinning. And if Jesus tells people who want to be justified by works to do these things if we want to be perfect, I think that should make all Catholics very uneasy, because as seen elsewhere in the Scriptures, God does tend to demand perfection when people think that they can be justified according to their love for God and their deeds.

And yes, as a Lutheran, I believe God’s commands are not burdensome, but that is because I am justified and hence perform good works, not the other way around. Insofar as I am a New Man in Christ, this is most certainly true.

I can only love God because His love has already saved me from sin (so myself), death, and the devil.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Isfatherwrong?:

Stever Merten,

You said:

The law states that we only have to love God through obedience with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind and with all our strength.

If the law states that we ONLY have to love God through obedience with ALL our hear, with ALL our sould, with ALL our mind and with ALL our strength, I am confused why you don’t think that means perfectly. It sounds like it to me. Help me out with why it doesn’t mean perfectly.

I think it does means perfectly - at least when its given as a response to the question “How can I be saved”. No, I think you are rationalizing those words.

Hello isfatherwrong,

Have you never read of God’s forgiveness to those who fail to love Him perfectly through disobedience?

Our God is a loving and forgiving God in both Old Testament and New Testament. God commands that we love Him through obedience and He also teaches forgiveness when we turn our hearts back to Him. God does not expect perfection but He does command that we love Him with all our hearts.

Though people fail to love God perfectly through sin to God’s command God has made a path for them to repent and turn their hearts back to obedience which is love for God. Mercy, repentance, forgiveness and turning our hearts back to God are all included in God’s command to love Him with all our hearts through obedience.

NAB EZE 18:23

**Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? **NAB JOE 2:12

Yet even now, says the LORD, return to me with your whole heart, with fasting, and weeping, and mourning; Rend your hearts, not your garments, and return to the LORD, your God. **For gracious and merciful is he, slow to anger, rich in kindness, and relenting in punishment. ****NAB MAL 3:7 **

**Since the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes, and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.**NAB EZE 18:30

Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the LORD GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. **Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the LORD GOD. Return and live! **NAB LUK 15:20

“While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was deeply moved. He ran out to meet him, threw his arms around his neck, and kissed him. The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against God and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’ The father said to his servants: ‘Quick! bring out the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet. Take the fatted calf and kill it. Let us eat and celebrate because this son of mine was dead and has come back to life. He was lost and is found.’ Then the celebration began.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB JER 3:19 Conditions for Forgiveness.

I had thought: How I should like to treat you as sons, And give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beautiful among the nations! You would call me, My Father, I thought, and never cease following me. But like a woman faithless to her lover, even so have you been faithless to me, O house of Israel, says the LORD. A cry is heard on the heights! the plaintive weeping of Israel’s children, Because they have perverted their ways and forgotten the LORD, their God. **Return, rebellious children, and I will cure you of your rebelling. **Here we are, we now come to you because you are the LORD, our God. Deceptive indeed are the hills, the thronging mountains; **In the LORD, our God, alone is the salvation of Israel. **The shame-god has devoured our fathers toil from our youth, Their sheep and their cattle, their sons and their daughters. Let us lie down in our shame, let our disgrace cover us, for we have sinned against the LORD, our God, From our youth to this day, we and our fathers also; we listened not to the voice of the LORD, our God.NAB SIR 17:19 Appeal for a Return to God.

But to the penitent he provides a way back, he encourages those who are losing hope! Return to the LORD and give up sin, pray to him and make your offenses few. Turn again to the Most High and away from sin, hate intensely what he loathes; Who in the nether world can glorify the Most High in place of the living who offer their praise? No more can the dead give praise than those who have never lived; they glorify the LORD who are alive and well. **How great the mercy of the LORD, his forgiveness of those who return to him! **NAB MAT 23:37

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murderess of prophets and stoner of those who were sent to you! How often have I yearned to gather your children, as a mother bird gathers her young under her wings, but you refused me. Recall the saying, You will find your temple deserted. I tell you, you will not see me from this time on until you declare, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” NAB JER 3:12

Return, rebel Israel, says the LORD, I will not remain angry with you; For I am merciful, says the LORD, I will not continue my wrath forever. Only know your guilt: how you rebelled against the LORD, your God, How you ran hither and yon to strangers (under every green tree) and would not listen to my voice, says the LORD. **Return, rebellious children, says the LORD, for I am you Master: I will take you, one from a city, two from a clan, and bring you to Zion. **

NAB NEH 1:7

Grievously have we offended you, not keeping the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances which you committed to your servant Moses. But remember, I pray, the promise which you gave through Moses, your servant, when you said: Should you prove faithless, I will scatter you among the nations; **but should you return to me and carefully keep my commandments, **even though your outcasts have been driven to the farthest corner of the world, I will gather them from there, and bring them back to the place which I have chosen as the dwelling place for my name. They are your servants, your people, whom you freed by your great might and your strong hand, O LORD, may your ear be attentive to my prayer and that of all your willing servants who revere your name. Grant success to your servant this day, and let him find favor with this man for I was cupbearer to the king.NAB ACT 3:19

"Therefore, reform your lives! Turn to God, that your sins may be wiped away!"

 

[But_for_Grace]

Steven - :yawn: what is the point of pounding people with scripture if you do not take the time to apply it. Just as a note, your posts might get more respect if you use less scripture and spend more time explaining why they scripture is applicable to the preceeding statements.

I am sorry, but as it is I usually just scroll through your posts.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Isfatherwrong?:

And if we are with Jesus, we share in His righteousness, and so we actually can be saved!

Hello isfatherwrong,

Please confirm that all Protestants that are with Jesus do not sin and are as righteous as Jesus in order to be saved. I see a great many sinning Protestants.

You insert that Catholics deny the need for Christ’s blood to go to heaven. Catholics believe that there is no way to heaven except through the blood of Jesus. Are we clear on this?

Jesus teachings clearly command us to obey and do works of mercy, (with all our strength) if we wish to enter into life through His blood. It is not excluding the need for Jesus blood to go to heaven which puts Catholics and Lutherans at odds. It is Luther’s perverted theology that we do not have to obey what Jesus commands us to do in works and obedience (with all our strength) to go to heaven through His blood.

Please confirm and aknowledge that all Catholics believe that we must go through the blood of Jesus to go to heaven.

Please confirm that it is on the issue of doing the works (with all our strength) that Jesus commands us to do to go to heaven through Him, that Luther and Protestants deny have any impact on going to heaven.

Jesus tells the rich man to sell his belongings and feed the poor. Luther and Protestants believe Jesus is decieving us that we need to do things like caring for the poor to go to heaven through His blood. Jesus is not a believer in “faith alone”. If you want to go to heaven through Jesus, care for the poor.

NAB MAT 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, **‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ **Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Steven_Merten]

Isfatherwrong?:

As a Catholic, you are required to believe that once the stain of original sin is removed, you are able to reach perfection in this life and are actually capable of not sinning.

Hello isfatherwrong,

Please quote where you think you came up with this deception. The Church highly promotes that we use the sacrament of reconciliation regularly.

 

[Steven_Merten]

But for Grace:

Steven - :yawn: what is the point of pounding people with scripture if you do not take the time to apply it. Just as a note, your posts might get more respect if you use less scripture and spend more time explaining why they scripture is applicable to the preceeding statements.

I am sorry, but as it is I usually just scroll through your posts.

Hello But for Grace,

I appologise for not putting “(continued)” at the top of a continued page. I forget that many times people go to the end post just to catch up on the latest events. Many times people do not nessessarily read posts in the order they were posted. I will be sure to put “continued” on pages that are continuations in the future.

Take care

Steven Merten

 

[Assurance]

Steven,

I acknowledge that many Catholics believe that it is only their good works that are done through Jesus’ blood that will get them to heaven. But it is precisely this kind of mixing of faith and works that is dangerous, for

there is absolutely no real comfort in this statement in the Joint Declaration of Justification for the conscience of the believer that is highly sensitized to the high expectations of God’s Holy Law. The teaching there will only throw the ones honest enough to truly face their sin before a Wrathful and Holy God into despair: “Have I repented enough? Have I done enough? Have I prayed enough? Have I been contrite enough? Is my “attrition” enough? Etc.” Sometimes, in the midst of severe trials (like hurricanes for instance) that push us to ask eternal questions and wonder how God is disposed towards us, the simple phase “God is love” and the assurance that He INTENDS our salvation aren’t sufficient to convince the terrified conscience that God really is for Him. We need sure promises from someone who is strong enough to save us from it all. Fortunately, we have these promises. We have The Promise – Jesus Christ.

I say our good works have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with getting us to heaven when it comes to our being accepted before God, for if Abraham was justified by works he had something to boast about - but not before God. Our “justification by works” on the last day is for the benefit of the world ONLY - just like the woman in in Luke who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears. The Pharisees were so blind (as is the unbelieving world) that they needed to see that evidence of her love for Jesus so Jesus could make the point that HER FAITH had saved her.

I say all of this while simultaneously saying that sin drives out faith and that Christians can lose their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I don’t deny that sin has crouched at the door of many Christians (not just Protestants), has been welcomed in, and has driven out true faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Many who believe they are Christians likely have an imaginary friend named “Jesus” who as Paul would say, is no Jesus at all.

As for this statement:

As a Catholic, you are required to believe that once the stain of original sin is removed, you are able to reach perfection in this life and are actually capable of not sinning.

This is why Luther was driven to despair. Because many Catholic theologians of the day certainly taught that at least. But, if I am wrong about the current Catholic teaching not saying this, I certainly invite correction. I will try to look into it more when I get the time.

In the meantime, you might want to check out the following thread as well. I have been studying and working hard to put together a strong case for why I believe Lutherans can still say that the office of the Papacy is in fact the Antichrist.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096

I know this will sound very inflammatory to you. I pray that we and others can discuss this somewhat rationally, without to much ad hominem stuff!

Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong?

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi father,

WHAT part do good works play in our salvation? well many say they play no part, but the Catholic Church teaches that they do have a role. At the same time the Church warns against the idea that we “earn” our salvation through good works. Both errors can be avoided by paying close attention to Scripture.

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16-17).

“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21).

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2-8).

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4-6).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12-13).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14-24).

The Catholic understanding is----“in the work of salvation all is from God, including our own co-operation, in the sense that we cannot distinguish a part as exclusively ours, which does not come from the author of all good.”

Another Catholic point of view, "God initiates our salvation by his grace, but he doesn’t stop there. Our works of obedience which follow the start of God’s salvific action in us are also the work of grace. "

This is what Paul means in Philippians 2:12-13 when he says we’re to work out our salvation and yet reminds us that “it is God who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” Or as Augustine put it, when God rewards our merits or works, he crowns his own gifts to us.

The Catholic teaching on this “If any one saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

God bless

Jan

 

[angelmessenger]

On Justification

The Catholic Church teaches the biblical doctrine that justification is intrinsic. This means that the initial justification of the sinner, wrought by God’s gift of grace and appropriated by faith (in the case of those above the age of reason), produces a real, inward change. The soul is filled with grace and becomes clean.

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Isaiah 55:10-11).

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3-4).

“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed [literally: “justified”] from sin” (Rom. 6:7-8).

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Cor. 5:17).

“Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (Eph. 4:22-24).

“You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet. 1:23).

“*f we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

“Repent, therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19).

Many have thought that the Church’s discussion of good works means that we must do good works in order to enter a state of justification. This has never been the case. In fact, in Catholic teaching, we are not capable of doing supernaturally good works outside of a state of justification because we don’t have the virtue of charity in our soul-the thing that makes good works good. Consequently, the Council of Trent taught “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification” (DJ 8).

It stresses that good works are a consequence of entering a state of justification, not the cause of entering it: “We confess together that good works-a Christian life lived in faith, hope, and love-follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit”

God bless

Jan*

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi father,

----“As a Catholic, you are required to believe that once the stain of original sin is removed, you are able to reach perfection in this life and are actually capable of not sinning.”

If only this were true

God bless

Jan

 

[Assurance]

angelmessenger,

I need to run for now, but I see you’ve responded to this already. I look forward to reading it - sometime soon, I hope. Nevertheless, I hope this will be my last post here for a while.

At a glance, I think the one thing you’re missing in all this is the one thing that I think is the most important issue: certainty of the state of grace.

Again, please take the time to log through at least posts 87-89 on forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096 in order to see why this is so.

This, I think, is ultimately why I am not a Roman Catholic.

Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong?

 

[Assurance]

angelmessenger,

I want to apologize. Of course you’re missing any comment about the certainty of the state of grace - that’s not what I was discussing with Mr. Merten. Whoops. Sorry.

Really though, that’s what it comes down to for me. Though I believe the Lutheran position that good works have nothing to do with our justification, I am willing to concede for the sake of argumentation that they do in order to talk about the certainty of salvation, which strikes me as the most important issue.

Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong?

 

[Assurance]

Steven,

One more thing - when Jesus says “ALL your heart…” to me that suggests perfection - no ifs, ands, or buts…

All means whole… complete… perfection!

When Jesus says be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, that word can also be translated complete or whole.

I understand what you are saying about forgiveness. But considering that you are not allowed to have certainty about your state of grace, I’d say that necessarily throws you to rely on your perceived experience of “Christ in you” as opposed to the external promise of “Christ for you” and logically, that is ultimately going to uforce you to rely where you ought not rely - though I pray to God that all who hold such views would NOT be logical and at their point of death would cry out to God on the basis of Christ’s shed blood: “O God, I am only an unworthy servant! I have no works of superrogation! I have only done what you gave me to do and I ought to have done!”

OK-- now I’ve got to take a break. Please check out the Antichrist thread if you haven’t already!

Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong

 

[TertiumQuid]

Catholic Dude:

I kept hearing people say that luther said this:
No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Well I looked around and it means what it says.
I found the letter he said this HERE.
It is from a page devoted to Luther’s writings,
located HERE.

Im so happy I found it! Im saving this!
What do you think?

Hi Catholic Dude,

First, my apologies for not reading through this massive thread. I will try to, time allowinging. I’m assuming someone was able to help you understand what Luther was saying.

Secondly, I have written a detailed evaluation of the quote from Luther you are using, found here:

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

I look forward to any comments or questions you may have.

Regards,
james Swan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid:

Hi Catholic Dude,

First, my apologies for not reading through this massive thread. I will try to, time allowinging. I’m assuming someone was able to help you understand what Luther was saying.

Secondly, I have written a detailed evaluation of the quote from Luther you are using, found here:

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

I look forward to any comments or questions you may have.

Regards,
james Swan

Interesting, I will try to read it all asap.

Also for anyone interested I have another thread going which talks about Faith Alone here.

 

[Assurance]

Steven and angelmessenger,

I want to say that I looked into that statement about perfection that I made and I am happy to concede that I was wrong in saying that. Please accept my apology.

I guess Thomas Aquinas calls monks and nuns “perfect” because they intend to live a perfect life (including following the “evangelical counsels,” that go beyond the 10 Commandments for the rest of us: poverty, chastity, obedience, which are perfectly lived by Christ), Summa Theologiae 2-2, qu. 186, a. 1.

For the record though, I don’t understand how if Christ has prepared all of our good works to do (Eph 2:8-10) we can have works of superrogation.

Jan, thanks for your remarks about justification. I understand the Catholic teaching. FYI, I don’t believe that the word justify in Scripture ever means transformation, but rather is always declarative. Lutherans for their part, distinguish between just and sanc not chronologically (they occur at the same time), but logically, as the declarative word that one is forgiven on the basis of His perfect life and inncocent death takes place outside a person (think "behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world) and is recieved into them by faith, which that Word actually brings. This is how Christ gets in us, ie how we are sanctified.