Luther! Read Read!

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-

Interesting point you’ve put forth about Scripture not talking about us sinning all the time (at least mortally).

Where is the Scripture then?

You’ve got me curious now about how many good verses I could find that we are in fact sinning all the time (sounds like Genesis 6 I think)!

I checked Genesis 6 and here is what it said:
9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

For my part though, my experience a big part of it. Jesus said even lusting after a woman was a sin. Bzzzt! - often. Being angry. Bzzzt! - often. I don’t know - maybe I am “getting better every day and in every way” but then why do I see more and more sin in me all the time?

Im not sure what your saying here at all? Also are you getting worse or better?

Jesus said to his disciples “you then, though you are evil…” why did he say that - especially when he told them in Luke 10 to not rejoice that their names “ARE written in the book of life…” (to get back to assurance! - ARE WRITTEN). Why is God letting evil men in?

Im not sure what verses your talking about, I dont know of Jesus calling someone evil and saying they are heavenbound. Anyway here is what I found:
17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

(By the way, in the Roman Catholic system, man was created weak and immature - even without the fall, man would have tended to sin

Support such an unfounded claim if you can with church documents like the Catechism. The Catholic Church said no such thing. This is unfounded.

(as baptism removes the original sin that occured in the fall) - even though God created him “very good”.

So what are you saying that man was not tainted after the fall?
There is a difference between total depravity which protestantism teaches, and a weakend state which the Bible, Church Fathers, and other historical sources teach and the CC still holds to.

The problem Im coming to understand as the backbone of Lutheranism. The idea of total depravity which is unBiblical and unHistorical concerning Christianity.

In the Lutheran conception, man was immature but perfect (kind of an immature, infant-like perfection) - he was able not to sin in the beginning and there’s no reason as best as we can tell that he had to fall into it. So, our conception of sin is heavier than the RCC’s)

Was Adam immature or was he created perfect? Immature indicates a defect or sub-par quality, God doesnt make sub par quality.

Why is it heavier? Is it Biblical? Hisotorical? What does “heavier” mean anyway?

Oh, and just give me some more time to think about this! How about Romans 7 - “I know there is nothing good in me…” (this confirms my experience!).

You left off some stuff:
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
Note that it says nothing good DWELLS IN, not that his body is evil matter, but that it is tainted. He goes on to say HE CAN WILL what is right, so thats one more proof against your concept of depravity. Paul says a lot of complex stuff here which I have a hart time following, but its not as clear cut as you make it, especially only citing half a verse.

This is serious stuff. For God is a consuming fire and His eys are too pure to look upon that evil within me. Whatever shall I do?

You can become clean and be edified (eg Sacraments) and resist the urges to sin.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Assurance,

I have answered your question as to where Edwin rejects Luther’s “faith alone”. Edwin believes we will be judged by Jesus on our conduct.

If Edwin, who spent twelve years in college studying Luther, could not find where Luther agrees with Jesus that we will be judged on our conduct, why do you say “*This type of thinking is all over the Lutheran Confessions”. *

Please show us where Luther teaches as Jesus does that Jesus will judge people into heaven through Him of hell based on their conduct.

Post 366

Assurance:
Steve,

*You said to Edwin : *

Post 353: Steven Merten said, “I asked you to post where Luther states that bad deeds put you in danger of damnation. You said you did not agree with Luther and that you believed bad deeds do put you in danger of damnation. Have you gone over to the Protestant sites and reprimanded and corrected them on this huge error they are believing?”

I ask this without any bad assumptions about you! - do you know where the link is where Edwin said that? I am only asking because Luther most definitely taught that bad deeds put you in danger of damnation, in that they drove out faith. **This type of thinking is all over the Lutheran Confessions and I can give you some quotes if you’d like. **

Love in Christ,
Assurance (formerly isfatherwrong?)

Post 242

Quote:

Contarini:
*bishopite, *

You are completely wrong in your interpretation of Luther. Luther did not think that faith was simply an intellectual assent. No Luther scholar would maintain such a thing. This is an ignorant caricature. Apparently few people on this thread are actually interested in the truth. You would rather keep your stereotype. OK, keep it.

Sorry for the anger, but I’ve spent post after post pointing out (with ample documentation) what Luther’s views actually were, and people simply ignore the evidence. Well, have your distortions if you love them so much. But you will answer at the judgment for every idle word, and that includes uninformed, uncharitable, false statements about other Christians’ beliefs.

Edwin

Post 245
Steven Merten:
Hello Edwin,

So are you saying that Luther condemned Christ’s teaching, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” But Luther taught “you will answer at the judgment for every idle word, and that includes uninformed, uncharitable, false statements about Luther’s beliefs”?

*Can you give us quotes from Luther as to what actions, works, disobedience, conduct, which Luther did teach that Jesus will judge and condenm people to hell for committing? *

**Luther

The doctrine of our opponents* is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law*, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

Post 247

Contarini:
My post said nothing about what Luther taught on the subject. Why do you assume that I agree with Luther? Is the concept of historical fairness and accuracy totally alien to you?

BTW, in response to your earlier question, to which you now allude, I can’t find Luther teaching that believers are judged on the basis of their works. As far as I can tell, he believed that believers are covered with Christ’s righteousness at the judgment.

And like you, I think this is flatly contrary to the plain sense of Scripture. So please spare me your endlessly repeated proof-texts!

Edwin

 

[TertiumQuid]

Hello Catholic Dude,

Please accept my apology for not maintaining this discussion at a similar pace as you put forth. As a way of showing respect for your comments, I try to work meticulously through what you say.
Catholic Dude:

Im dumbfounded here. I dont believe what I am seeing here, look at James2:

I find it very curious that this is the first time you’ve ever read a Protestant discuss and interpret the example of Abraham as used by James and Paul. Thus, I’m somewhat “dumbfounded” as to why you are “dumbfounded”. I’ve been in discussions with people where they come out of “left field” with some strange comment I’ve never heard before. However, this discussion between Protestants and Catholics on the faith of Abraham has been going on for centuries. I really find it hard to believe this is the first time you’ve ever heard a Protestant talk about the faith of Abraham and the way it was shown to be living faith by his works. Abraham lived a life in which his faith caused him to lay aside wickedness and received the implanted word of God that would save his soul (James 2:21).

I assume you cited James 2 as a proof that justification is achieved eventually by faith + works (though I haven’t read many of your comments addressing the neeed for faith). James though, is really only saying that good works are the evidence of real faith. Note especially James 2:23 “…the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God’s friend.” In other words, Abraham’s works showed his saving faith. His was not a dead faith, or simply a “said” faith. The book describes a real true faith in Christ: a real saving faith is a living faith. If no works are found in a person, that faith is a dead faith (c.f. James 2:17). James describes a dead faith: the faith of a demon. A demon has faith that God exists, that Christ rose from the dead- I would dare say a demon knows theology better than you or I. But is the faith of this demon a saving faith? Absolutely not. Luther would agree: “Accordingly, if good works do not follow, it is certain that this faith in Christ does not dwell in our heart, but dead faith…”

But to get back on track of this discussion- remember earlier you thought Luther taught “cheap grace”? Well he didn’t, and you’ve now been able to read Luther’s sermon for yourself and see this misunderstanding of Luther clearly, or rather, I think you should be able to. You cite points 10 and 12 from Luther’s sermon in your comments, but for some unknown reason you leave out point 11, a crucial paragraph to our discussion:

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”

You seem to be skipping over the essential parts of relevant text to this entire thread you started- that is, those sections from Luther that explain he clearly taught true faith shows itself by its works, and that he did not teach “cheap grace”. Also from point 11:

“For this reason the Holy Spirit urges works, that they may be witnesses of faith. In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, “the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.” It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.”

These comment from Luther should end our discussion once and for all. It should also show you clearly that Catholics who malign Luther for teaching sola fide don’t know what they’re talking about. Now that you’ve been informed, you can join me in correcting slander against Luther- because, shouldn’t those who claim to be Christians not stand up against slander? Recall what James says, “With the tongue…we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.” By misrepresenting the teaching of Luther, we curse him and commit sin…even if we go to church and praise God on Sunday, by committing sin against another person one shows their faith might actually not be a living faith, but a dead faith.

-continued-
James Swan

 

[TertiumQuid]

Catholic Dude:

?Again? Totally unBiblical, where does Faith Alone come out of this? There was a sermon teaching and praising works, but somehow its Faith Alone?

If you recall, my earlier response to you suggested first exegeting the parable yourself. Then read the entire sermon from Luther to understand what Luther is saying in his own context. Then decide how well Luther understood this parable. Finally, present your findings. As far as I’ve read your comments, you’ve yet to exegete the parable, but are rather selectively citing Luther to assail anything he says. Where in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican does Jesus teach justification achieved by works?
Catholic Dude:

Is this really what the Bible teaches? Look what he is teaching people! IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE KINGDOM, bang, done, saved, who honestly thinks they are going to deceive themself after they have the kingdom? This can easily be seen as the roots for OSAS.

What Luther is saying in point 13 is that only a living faith is a saving faith. Re-read point 11. If no works follow, chances are, the faith professed is not saving faith. Luther says in point 13: “if you believe, then you have the kingdom of heaven; and yet, in order that you may not deceive yourselves, do the works.” Luther realized that balance is to be sought here. In point 12 he states,

“Thus we err on both sides in saying, a person must only believe, then he will neglect to do good works and bring forth good fruits. Again, if you preach works, the people immediately comfort themselves and trust in works. Therefore we must walk upon the common path. Faith alone must make us good and save us. But to know whether faith is right and true, you must show it by your works. God cannot endure your dissembling, for this reason he has appointed you a sermon which praises works, which are only witnesses that you believe, and must be performed not thereby to merit anything, but they should be done freely and gratuitously toward our neighbor.”

I challenge you to understand Luther here. Follow Luther’s thought:

1. Errors occur in 2 instances: when one says faith only means no good works are needed and also when works are preached people trust in them for their salvation.
2. Luther’s solution: The gift of faith justifies us and it produces works (recall the words of Jesus- a good tree produces good fruit)
3. God will not justify those people with a false faith. That faith that doesn’t show its aliveness by works is a false faith.
4. Works are a witness that one has saving faith. They serve as descriptive sign that one has faith. Luther says elsewhere:

“Faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing and it is impossible that it should not do good without ceasing; it does not ask whether good works are to be done, but before the question is put, it has done them already, and is always engaged in doing them; you may as well separate burning and shining from fire, as works from faith.”
Catholic Dude:

Again, we have Luther destroying works infront of his audience, he misapplies this passage to be talking about priests and nuns! He just villified them and denounced them. Read what Luke18 says about those who give up everything to follow Jesus, read read! Luther is very smart in this issue, he knows when to make works necessary and when to villify them.

I don’t find Luther misapplying the passage at all. The editors of Luther’s works point out, “Although [Luther] did not condemn the monastic life as such, he did state that it could lead to a perversion of the gospel, and that as monasticism was then practiced it was almost universally pernicious.” To explain, Luther abhorred the pseudo-works of pilgrimages, idolatry, monkery, self-denials, etc., which were considered “good works” one does for oneself on the road to eventual salvation. These types of works are the height of selfishness. They are all about oneself, and do nothing to help the neighbor. The editors of Luther’s Works point out, “To go beyond what Christ commands and enjoins is not faith, but sin. Those things a monk vows are not peculiar to the monastic life, but are required of all Christians. True Christian obedience is that which makes a man humble and unites him to his neighbor. True poverty is to seek not one’s own, but to employ what one has for the welfare of one’s neighbor. Monasticism’s understanding of these vows is superficial and external, and does not proceed from faith.”

Regards,
James Swan

 

[TertiumQuid]

Hi Catholic Dude,

Since I’m a little behind, these comments are directed towards post 359. From now on I’ll try to make note of which comments of yours I’m addressing.
Catholic Dude:

First of all here is the punchline to that parable, and its not faith alone:…. Nothing to do with faith alone, it has to do with tooting your horn when God knows that no one is mr perfect so the pharisee shoundnt pretend to be.

Both the Pharisee and the Publican professed belief in God (recall they both went to pray). From outward appearances, wouldn’t you conclude the Pharisee was the true believer? God though says otherwise. It was the man who humbled himself and simply confessed his sinfulness. The Pharisees were indeed highly pious men, filled to the brim with good works. They had a said “faith” in God and works to prove it. Yet this Pharisee falls under the condemnation of Christ, and is not justified. His is a false faith because his works were not motivated out of love for God. The Publican though, who admits his sinfulness and cries out for mercy goes forth justified: without the mention of any outward works.
Catholic Dude:

This destroys what Luther said above if you read the next few verses of Lk18:

I know that Roman Catholics believe meritorious works are a condition for salvation. Are you aware of the Protestant response to Luke 18:18-23?

“There is no evidence here or elsewhere that Jesus taught that good works are a condition of salvation. Jesus’ answer was not intended as a plan of salvation but as proof of the young man’s condemnation. The law does not save (Rom. 3:28), but it does condemn (Rom. 3:19). The “law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). Jesus was trying to demonstrate to the young man that he stood condemned before the law. His unwillingness to give his money to the poor revealed that he had not even kept the first great commandment to love God more than his money or anything else (cf. Matt. 22:36–37).Further, Jesus was showing that even the rich young ruler’s question was confused. For one does not “do” anything to get an inheritance of any kind, including eternal life. An “inheritance” is a gift. Indeed, eternal life is presented throughout the Bible as a gift (John 3:36; 5:24; 20:31; Rom. 6:23; 1 John 5:13). And one cannot work for a gift. As Paul said, “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4–5). The only “work” by which someone can be saved is “faith.” For when Jesus was asked, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” Jesus replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He sent” (John 6:29 NASB)."

Source Geisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. When cultists ask : A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books) 151.
Catholic Dude:

Nowhere in a million years is faith alone hinted at in that chapter. Look what they said, “WHO CAN BE SAVED”, if it was faith alone do you think they would have asked this? The first half of the test was if they are keeping the commandments, the second half is denying the things of this world and following Christ. Notice that “following” is a continuous thing, there is no moment of justification that lasts and lasts. There is no faith alone, and then :works to prove it".

I find the response of those listening to Jesus in Matthew 18 quite telling: “Who then can be saved?” Indeed, those hearing Jesus realized if even a guy who (allegedly) kept almost all the commandments outwardly wasn’t close to being saved, no one was. Remember, having wealth is not a sin. As Geisler notes, “There is nothing wrong with possessing riches—there is something wrong with being possessed by riches. God blessed Abraham and Job with great riches, and the apostle Paul does not instruct the rich to give away all they have, but to use and enjoy their blessings (1 Tim. 6:17–18)” (Source: Geisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. (1997). When cultists ask: A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (Page 276). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books). Jesus unmasked the faithlessness of the rich young ruler. Christ clearly taught that in order to fulfill the law it must be both inward and outward. Like the Pharisee, simply having external works will not save. Those works must be the product of living faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).

-continued-
James Swan

 

[TertiumQuid]

More responses directed towards post 359-
Catholic Dude:

I havnt misquoted you, you just reaffirmed what I said. I said why would you even ask such a question of why unbelief sounds so henious in light of blatant grave sins. Why does it seem “not so bad” thats my question to you.

Because most people (many Christians included) picture God to be a nice old grandfather with a big white beard. Many reason, “Why would God be mad at me for not fulfilling his law both inwardly and outwardly perfectly in my whole life? I’m doing the best I can doing things my way.” Christians (and many non-Christians) chant the mantra “God is love” over and over, to the point the forget God is also Holy. Any small incey-wincey sin against a perfect Holy God deserves eternal damnation. On the other hand, when a sin-filled man lies or murders a fellow sin-filled man, popular society cries for justice. Why doesn’t society cry for justice when the one falls short, even with the slightest peccadillo, of keeping the entire law? Because people think of God as the old loving Grandfather who winks at sin.
Catholic Dude:

Since when is mortal sin only against fellow man and not against God? Its BOTH. Read what your saying.

I am not making the gross distinction you think I am. God’s law is the rule by which we are to follow when relating to each other. Of course any sin against a fellow man is a sin against God. This should go without saying.
Catholic Dude:

I dont deny any sin against a perfect infinite being is bad. Im calling to question the separation of faith and works and turning them against eachother.

It seems to me like your trying desperately to make Luther say something he hasn’t said. Faith and works are not separated in Protestant theology. Romans 5:1 says we now have peace with God, not a temporary cease-fire. Romans 4:5 says, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked his faith is credited as righteousness.” Romans 8:33 says, “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died- more than that, who was raised to life- is at the right hand of God interceding for us.” There can be no charge against the Christian because Jesus intercedes for him. Ephesians 2 says Christians “have been” saved not by works, and that we are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

Regards,
James Swan

 

[Steven_Merten]

TertiumQuid:

It seems to me like your trying desperately to make Luther say something he hasn’t said. Faith and works are not separated in Protestant theology.

Regards,
James Swan

Hello James,

This looks like an oportune time for you to show us Luther’s teaching that people will be judged into heaven through Jesus or hell based on conduct. If Luther did teach, as you say he did, that obedience to God’s commands and faith are one in the same, or at least inseperable, then Jesus judging the faithful according to their obedience, as He says He will, would be perfectly acceptable to Luther theology.

Please give us the quotes where Luther teaches, as Jesus does, that people will be judged by their obedience to God with all their hearts which is faith?

I am still waiting on Assurance to do so and Edwin could not. Could you please give us these Luther quotes, if they exist, so we can study them? Thanks in advance.

NAB JOH 12:44
Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”

NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned." **NAB **REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

TertiumQuid:

Hi Catholic Dude,

The Pharisees were indeed highly pious men, filled to the brim with good works. They had a said “faith” in God and works to prove it. James Swan

Hello James,

Can you give us a refference as to where you come up with the conclusion that the Pharisees were, “filled to the brim with good works”?

Jesus makes them out to be the most heinous, wicked evil doers on earth. They claimed that God imputted good deeds into them because of their “faith” but Jesus spells it out that they are evil and wicked. Because Jesus pointed out that it will not be the Pharisees who enter into the Kingdom of God that John and Jesus preached, they initiated the death of Jesus. I do not consider this action as being, “filled to the brim with good works”.

Please give us a quote as to where you get your information on the Pharisees not being evil doers.

NAB MAT 5:20

I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God." NAB MAT 12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

NAB MAT 23:23

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
NAB MAT 23:12

Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You shut the doors of the kingdom of God in men’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor admitting those who are trying to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You travel over sea and land to make a convert, but once he is converted you make a devil of him twice as wicked as yourselves.

 

[Sirach14]

Luther also added to the Word of God. He added the word “Alone” in St. Pauls epistle to the Romans.

 

[Assurance]

Steve Merten and Catholic Dude,

Please show us where Luther teaches as Jesus does that Jesus will judge people into heaven through Him of hell based on their conduct.

Steve, I told you that Luther did not teach this (nor did he believe Jesus did of course) Sigh. I tried to explain the nuance, but you obviously did not read my reply very closely. I suppose I can take comfort in the fact that this being a forum, I am not only writing for you.

Steve, I never said Korah was not in hell. I only said I was not convinced that each individual who took part in the rebellion was in hell. Further, I think those passages about blessings and curses in Deuteronomy are for temporal blessings for the nation of Israel (not primarily addressed to individuals). I think that eternal life or a continued eternal relationship with God is already presupposed by faith in the coming Messiah (Gen 3:15, promises to Abraham, the sacrifcies, Isaiah 52), and that the commandments are the people’s proper response to being saved. They are to inheret the kingdom, not merit it. They are to reflect, not effect their salvation. They are to be good because they are God’s, not to be Gods.

Catholic Dude, I hope you will try to go back and understand what I am writing. Jesus calls his disciples “evil” in Matthew 7 in the sermon on the mount. Futher, by not quoting all of the Romans 7 passage that you thought I should I am not saying that the body is evil. Finally - maybe I reached to far in my comments about man in his original nature in the Roman system. I do think, however, that it is clear that man by nature in the Roman system would have been at least prone to concupiscence, as “supernatural” grace was necessary to hold him up, hence the “fall from grace”. Finally, by saying that man was innocent, but immature - you are right - this is a great mystery. In short, at that point, man was not not able not to sin, but was able not to sin in our understanding. Now, post-fall, man is not able not to sin.

Further, the main point in my adoption analogy is not that a child can leave (of course I believe this, as I have said ad nauseum) - that’s how we lose our faith and are damned. My point is simply that in the Roman Catholic system a person can never know with certainty whether they even have such a relationship with their Heavenly Father that were they do die at this very moment they would be with Jesus forever (eventually, through purgatory) in heaven.

I have written about this at length here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007135&postcount=87 and forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007136&postcount=88 and I don’t think you can deny it.

As a father whose love pails to God, I still pray that I would not be like the “God the Father of Roman Catholic theology” who will not permit this absolute assurance that the relationship is currently of such a nature that were one to physically die, one would not be eternally lost. This is the main thing that keeps me Lutheran.

 

[Assurance]

As to the idea that we are sinning all the time, even mortally, I offer the following passages for consideration:

Psalm 130
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities,
O Lord, who shall stand?

4 But there is forgiveness with thee,
that thou mayest be feared.

Catholic Dude, this is like the passage from Malachai. Do you see the rhetorical nature of the questions? Obviously the answer is “no one”.

Also, from Romans 14: “whatever is not of faith is sin” Would you say that each and every moment you are operating according to faith/trust in Christ and His Word?

Isaiah 64:6,7:

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

and Psalmn 130:4:

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse thou me from secret faults.

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me:
then shall I be upright,
and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

What about Jeremiah 17? The heart is deceitful above all things - who can understand it?

What about Mark 7?:

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

“all these evil things” - are “evil” things sins or concupiscence? Do they need Christ’s forgiveness?

To answer your question from before, when I look inside my heart, I realize that I have become more aware of my sin as I’ve grown in knowledge of Christ and His word. I hope that doesn’t mean I’m sinning outwardly more - I am encouraged when people tell me they see Christ in me, because I am like CS Lewis:

"For the first time I examined myself with a seriously practical purpose. And there I found what appalled me; a zoo of lusts, a bedlam of ambitions, a nursery of fears, a harem of fondled hatreds. My name was legion. (CS Lewis, Surpised by Joy).

No Catholic Dude - you are right! If it is not by faith alone - if it is not by me freely receiving the feast with my contributing nothing, I am undone! As the RCC catechism says:

208 Faced with God’s fascinating and mysterious presence, man discovers his own insignificance. Before the burning bush, Moses takes off his sandals and veils his face in the presence of God’s holiness.13 Before the glory of the thrice-holy God, Isaiah cries out: "Woe is me! I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips."14 Before the divine signs wrought by Jesus, Peter exclaims: "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."15 But because God is holy, he can forgive the man who realizes that he is a sinner before him: "I will not execute my fierce anger. . . for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst."16 The apostle John says likewise: "We shall. . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."17

Truly, before God, no one cannot boast of those works he has done according to His Law (10 commandments)!

To this RCC catechism quote however, I would add to “significance”, “utter wickedness” (Jesus: “you then, though you are evil…” - Mathew 7). But otherwise, “Amen, amen, and amen”!

Catholic Dude (and Steve) - I submit that when Jesus says “do this and you shall live” you need to weigh that very seriously. I do to. Jesus’ words are sometimes not meant to be taken strictly at face value, but are, like the parables, meant to confound and break us. Think about it. Jesus said he didn’t come for the healthy but the sick. Was he saying the Pharisees were really not sick? Jesus said to Simon the Pharisee that “he who has been forgiven much loves much and he who has been forgiven little…” Did Jesus mean to say that Simon really didn’t need to be forgiven that much? Jesus says to the Canaanite woman “it is not right to give the children’s food to the dogs”… did he really mean that he had not come for the Gentiles?

No! No! No! But if you take his words at face value, you’d think the answers were Yes, yes, yes!

OK, I have written too much and don’t have so much time to be doing this - so I probably won’t be back here for a while.

I hope you’ll consider what I have to say.

Love in Christ,
Assurance

PS I checked that quote I’ve been using. The quote really is: “Small sins become great when they are considered small”. Do you see what he is saying?

 

[Assurance]

Catholic Dude,

As to Jesus becoming the greatest sinner, that is because he took all the sin of the world upon Himself, even becoming sin for us (II Cor 5).

Luther does talk about distinguishing faith and works - but that is only as it is related to how someone is saved.

As TertiumQuid correctly points out, Luther believed that works offer evidence that someone does have true faith - they are not the cause of our acceptance before God in any sense.

There are two answers to the question “What must I do to be saved?”

To the proud one who thinks that he is justified by his works, in spite of the fact that Jesus says we are to say “we have only done what is required of us” (NO works of superrogation, thank you!), he says "do this (keep the commandments) and you will live.

To the one who is shattered and fears the judgement of the holy and rightious God, Paul says to the Phillipian jailor “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.”

Which answer you give a person depends on where they are in light of God’s Law and Gospel.

This is what Luther means when he says that faith and works must be distinguished and kept separate - but NOT in terms of the final judgement before men:

Simply:

Through the bloody cross of Christ, the Christian has already been called – has been declared righteous in advance of God’s final judgment (thereby creating faith) – where not their faith, but their visible works will be put forth as evidence before the world that they were indeed God’s beloved children. Even in the end, our works are there not because God needs them (in this case to “merit” His approval at the judgment seat – to earn His final approval), but because the neighbor does. It is here that the unbelieving world – the goats – will finally be presented with the only evidence that counts – the truth of those good works that Christians performed out of love for Christ. For true children love their eldest brother, as well as their brothers, sisters, and Heavenly Father. Indeed, it is impossible to conceive of salvation apart from obedience to the law, and truly, this is all well and good – for God desires these two distinct things to be connected before the world on the last day! Jesus said “if you love me you will obey me”, and to the extent that Christians obeyed God, they did so not to be saved, but because they were saved!

And as I’ve also said before on this thread, to the Christian who struggles with sin, the following words would be apt:

Koberle: “Though the power of the divine promises and not because of the strength of his own exalted ethical idealism, is it possible for him in the midst of great struggles and conflicts, because of a faith that sees with the eyes of God, to be certain of the final victory. Though still engaged in the struggle he know that he has attained the end. While yet wrestling hourly for the decision of obedience he already possesses the end he is striving for (“The Quest for Holiness”, 244).”

In short, having already been made disciples, the Christian is to become a disciple. Having been made a child of God, the Christian is to become one. Having been made a friend, the Christian is to become a friend. Having been made pure, the Christian is to become pure. Having been given a light that shines, we are to let it shine. Having been made a young apple fruit, the Christian is to become a mature apple fruit. In His call – in His declarative Word – Christ gives all things. God possesses all things and we possess nothing. If we are predestined, called, justified, sanctified and glorified, such is to the glory of God. If we are reprobate, unjust, wicked, ungodly and damned, the blame lies only on us. Only God gives life and makes alive. All things have their beginning in Christ and find their end in Him. In Him alone we are secure and apart from Him we have no security. Do nothing, but only believe.

As Christians we are born twice - creation and redemption. We can only kill ourselves but never give ourselves life. He has already done that.

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

Do nothing, but only believe.

It is impossible to do nothing if you believe. By grace through faith, our good works will flow like a continuous stream of purified water from the fountain of mercy.

God bless,
Mickey

 

[Assurance]

Mickey,

I agree with you. I am saying this however in regards to the question “What must I do to be saved?” To the Christian who is terrified by the wrath of God and worries about his deeds, he should be pointed to Christ, not to his works.

In fact, in some cases one might not even bring up the verb “to believe”. Just talking about the object of faith - Jesus Christ - engenders faith.

The Gospel is good news about comfort and assurance.

For example, I don’t need to encourge a hungry person that he eat the plate of food I put in front of him!

Love in Christ,
Assurance.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Im kind of busy, but I will get to the last few posts asap.

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

To the Christian who is terrified by the wrath of God and worries about his deeds, he should be pointed to Christ, not to his works.

I am not familiar with any Christian teaching that indicates we are saved by our works?

We are save by grace, through faith and our righteous works are the fruit of that faith. And the most beneficial of our works–is prayer. We are compelled to pray as we yearn to be reunited with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[Assurance]

Mickey,

Maybe you could tell me what you think of these posts: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…35&postcount=87 and forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…36&postcount=88

In short, when a Christian is terrified by the wrath of God Romans 1 speaks of and is not sure whether they are in a state of grace, how should they be directed?

Further, when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God (like Trent: Canon 32 “If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase in glory, let him be anathema.”), or was Paul already perfectly righteous and holy in Christ, in whom he had all things (Unlike Trent: Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema).

Do you believe good works are the fruit of faith which saves only or, like Roman Catholics, that they actually merit eternal life.

If you believe they merit eternal life, I understand where you are coming from, because that is what Rome teaches and I think you are a Roman Catholic.

In any case, the real beef that I have with Rome is contained in the two links above - namely, no true assurance.

Love in Christ,
Assurance.

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

Mickey,

Maybe you could tell me what you think of these posts: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…35&postcount=87 and forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…36&postcount=88

In short, when a Christian is terrified by the wrath of God Romans 1 speaks of and is not sure whether they are in a state of grace, how should they be directed?

Further, when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God (like Trent: Canon 32 “If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase in glory, let him be anathema.”), or was Paul already perfectly righteous and holy in Christ, in whom he had all things (Unlike Trent: Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema).

Do you believe good works are the fruit of faith which saves only or, like Roman Catholics, that they actually merit eternal life.

If you believe they merit eternal life, I understand where you are coming from, because that is what Rome teaches and I think you are a Roman Catholic.

In any case, the real beef that I have with Rome is contained in the two links above - namely, no true assurance.

Love in Christ,
Assurance.

Those links are no good.

I’m not sure if you are trying to say that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. If you are, I’m not interested in the debate–been there too many times and it’s futile trying to convince someone about something that they will never be convinced about.

I am Byzantine Catholic.

I leave you with a Church Father quote:

Come now, my brethren - all who have received the name of faith, who have been deemed worthy to be called people of Christ - do not put aside our calling; let us not violate our faith through improper works. It is not enough for someone merely to be known as a believer, so let us show our faith through works.
** St. John of Damascus**

 

[Assurance]

Mickey,

The faith vs works question is important, and I think I understand the Catholic and Orthodox position on it quite well.

Again, what I am really concerned about is the question of assurance of salvation.

As a Byzantine Catholic, you would be very interested in what Rome has to say then, as you are in fellowship with the Pope.

Here are the links I am trying again.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007135&postcount=87

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007136&postcount=88

Otherwise, its posts 87 and 88 here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096&page=2&pp=100

Love in Christ,
Assurance

 

[TertiumQuid]

These responses are directed towards post 374.
Catholic Dude:

The issue of any sin “grave sin” is another thing I see as very misleading and unBiblical. A white lie is not as grave as a murder.

Correct, they are not the same, but that was never my point. I have been positing the smallest sin against a Holy God is enough to condemn a man for eternity. I have never argued all sins are the same. In fact, I would argue that the Bible teaches degrees of punishment and degrees of sin.
Catholic Dude:

It almost brings to mind this parable in Matt21…Did the first son really commit a sin as gave as the second?

Again, this was never my point. Quoting parables to define doctrine is not always the best way to glean a correct understanding of the Bible. I would rather go to passages that address “sin” like Romans 1:18-3:20; Jer 17:9; Gal. 5:16-21; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Heb 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 5:17, etc.
Catholic Dude:

As far as the faith alone idea goes, the second man should have been considered justified WITHOUT looking ahead. If you look ahead then that wrecks the Lutheran idea that a person can take comfort in knowing they are justified by a single act of faith.

Jesus makes his point in verses 31-32. “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.”

Now Jesus was speaking to the chief priests and the elders (aka: pious religious people). He says that gross sinners will enter the kingdom of God because they believed on Jesus. Later in Matthew 23, the Jewish religious leaders are said to be “sons of hell”. So much for their good works.
Catholic Dude:

Thats a major problem with the simplified notion that all sin is just as grave as another. The

Again, my point was not that all sins are equal. My point is the seriousness of sin. Catholics have accused Protestants of taking sins lightly. The opposite is the case, especially with Luther:

“Luther examined the Great Commandment, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself.” Then he asked himself, “What is the Great Transgression?” Some answer this question by saying that the great sin is murder, adultery, blasphemy, or unbelief. Luther disagreed. He concluded that if the Great Commandment was to love God with all the heart, then the Great Transgression was to fail to love God with all the heart. He saw a balance between great obligations and great sins. Most people do not think that way. None of us keeps the Great Commandment for five minutes. We may think that we do in a surface way, but upon a moment’s reflection it is clear that none of us loves God with our whole heart or our whole mind or our whole strength. No one loves his neighbor as he loves himself. We may do everything in our power to avoid thinking about this at a deep level, but there is always that nagging sense in the back of our minds to accuse us of the certain knowledge that in fact we violate the Great Commandment every day. Like Isaiah, we also know that no one else keeps the Great Commandment either. Herein is our comfort: Nobody is perfect. We all fall short of perfect love for God, so why worry about it? It doesn’t drive sane fellows to the confessional for six hours a day. If God punished everyone who failed to keep the Great Commandment, He would have to punish everyone in the world. The test is too great, too demanding; it is not fair. God will have to judge us all on a curve. Luther didn’t see it that way. He realized that if God graded on a curve, He would have to compromise His own holiness. To count on God doing so is supreme arrogance and supreme foolishness as well. God does not lower His own standards to accommodate us. He remains altogether Holy, altogether righteous, and altogether just. But we are unjust and therein lies our dilemma. Luther’s legal mind was haunted by the question: How can an unjust man survive in the presence of a just God? Where everyone else was at ease in the matter, Luther was in agony: Do you not know that God dwells in light inaccessible? We weak and ignorant creatures want to probe and understand the incomprehensible majesty of the unfathomable light of the wonder of God. We approach; we prepare ourselves to approach. What wonder then that his majesty overpowers us and shatters!” (Source: RC Sproul: The Holiness of God)

-Continued-