Luther! Read Read!

[TertiumQuid]

Hi Catholic Dude-

These responses are directed towards post 374.
Catholic Dude:

I guess its the idea that a single moment of faith cant be considered instant complete justification if your not going to go out to do the work. The problem is thats what I hear a lot of protestants today say, and I see Luther almost, if not fully saying the same thing.

I’ve explained Luther to you repeatedly. I don’t know how you can possibly say this- unless of course you’re just kidding around at this point.
Catholic Dude:

That a moment of faith alone justifies totally and perfectly, (good works are supposed to follow but thats really secondary). The important point is AFTER that moment of FA can a person really tell themself that they are sure of their justification?

Yes. 1 John 3:23 “This is his command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ and to love one another as he commanded us.” 1 John 2:12 “I write to you dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.” 1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
Catholic Dude:

I see people like “isfatherwrong” saying this very thing here, paraphrased loosely:" Im so glad that I can be assured of my justification, unlike you Catholic’s who are subject to doubts like ‘did I do enough’, etc".

I have never met a Roman Catholic who knows they are saved. In fact, the very well respected Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott has said, “The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this: that without a special revelation nobody can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for achieving justification.”
Catholic Dude:

Im not getting mad here, Im just trying to reconcile this idea that a single moment of faith is certain justification.

I say you would have every right to be mad. If you think your works somehow contribute to your eventual justification, if I’m right, everything you have done has been in vain. I might be kinda mad if it were me- mst probably I would be very relieved.
Catholic Dude:

And as I have said before it all hinges on the idea of what sin is,

Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, any law of God, given as a rule to the reasonable creature. (1 John 3:4, Gal. 3:10,12)
Catholic Dude:

is all sin “grave sin” or are there different degrees?

“Roman Catholic theology distinguishes between mortal and venial sins. A mortal sin removes your justification, and if you die with unconfessed mortal sin on your soul, you will be sent to hell. Venial sins only reduce your rewards or add to your time in purgatory. The Reformation rejected this works-orientation, but the Reformers did not reject the idea of degrees of sin. John Calvin said that all sin is mortal in the sense that it deserves death, but no sin is so severe that it can destroy the grace of justification. All sins are serious, though some sins are judged by both God and our society to be worse than others.” Source: Sproul, R. (2000, c1993). Vol. Book two: Before the face of God : Book two: A daily guide for living from the Gospel of Luke
Catholic Dude:

This doesnt make sense, how hard is being justified then?

Salvation is a gift- Gifts usually aren’t “hard”. They are things given to us that we didn’t earn or make ourselves. (See Ephesians 2:8-10)
Catholic Dude:

It looks like it takes no effort at all then, if works are not part of it then what is left? Faith? How hard is it to have faith in Jesus? It should be easy enough for anyone. Yet is this what Jesus teaches?

The Bible teaches that fallen man thinks believing in Jesus is foolish: read1 Corinthians: 1:18-31.
Catholic Dude:

This kind of mentality of faith—>Justification—>works by Luther flies in the face of what Jesus said to a crowd to which the people were so shocked they said in Lk18:26- "Then who can be saved?"Why would they ask such a question if there was instant justification and good works to follow?

I find the response of those listening to Jesus in Matthew 18 quite telling: “Who then can be saved?” Indeed, those hearing Jesus realized if even a guy who (allegedly) kept almost all the commandments outwardly wasn’t close to being saved, no one was.

Regards,
James Swan

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

Mickey,

I agree with you. I am saying this however in regards to the question “What must I do to be saved?” To the Christian who is terrified by the wrath of God and worries about his deeds, he should be pointed to Christ, not to his works.

The Gospel is good news about comfort and assurance.

Love in Christ,
Assurance.

Is the biblical sence of the term “good news” about comfort and assurance? I think you have made up your own false god definition to a the biblical term “good news”.

Jesus points people toward obedience to God if the wish to enter into life. Jesus warns of eternal damnation if a person refuses to do so.

NAB LUKE 3:17 (John the Baptist preaching the good news)
His winnowing-fan is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn in euquenchable fire." Using exhortations of this sort, he preached the good news to the people.

NAB MAT 7:13

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

NAB MAT 13:47-50

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and **hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.**NAB HEB 4:1

Therefore, while the promise of entrance into his rest still holds, **we ought to be fearful of disobeying lest any one of you be judged to have lost his chance of entering. We have indeed heard the good news, as they did. But the word which they heard did not profit them, for they did not receive it in faith. **

NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

Do you believe good works are the fruit of faith which saves only or, like Roman Catholics, that they actually merit eternal life.

Love in Christ,
Assurance.

Hello Assurance,

Why is it that Protestants always want to teach Catholocism? Is it because they want manipulate and distort Catholocism to benifite Protestantism. Is this not correct?

The only way to go to heaven is through God’s merciful gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Catholics believe this. Catholics do not believe that one earns heaven. The reason God judges some people into heaven through Jesus’ blood and others into eternal damnation, is based on an individual’s love for God. God tells us that those who love Him, through obedience which is our faith, enter into heaven through Jesus. Those who hate God, through unrepentant sinfulness which is faithlessness, will be destroyed in the fires of hell.

Do you also acuse Jesus of teaching that people earn their way to heaven?

NAB JOH 5:27

“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.” INT 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.

NAB DEU 10:12 The Lord’s Majesty.

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD, your God, ask of you but to fear the LORD, your God, and follow his ways exactly, to love and serve the LORD, your God, with all your heart and all your soul, to keep the commandments and statutes of the LORD which I enjoin on you today for your own good?” NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." NAB MAT 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ …

…'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ …

…And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NAB JOH 12:47

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me." NAB REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid-
(edited for size)

I assume you cited James 2 as a proof that justification is achieved eventually by faith + works … James though, is really only saying that good works are the evidence of real faith. Note especially James 2:23 “… In other words, Abraham’s works showed his saving faith. His was not a dead faith, or simply a “said” faith. The book describes a real true faith in Christ: a real saving faith is a living faith. If no works are found in a person, that faith is a dead faith (c.f. James 2:17). … Luther would agree: “Accordingly, if good works do not follow, it is certain that this faith in Christ does not dwell in our heart, but dead faith…”

I have a thread going here about how Calvin got in this same tangle here. Its simply ignoring and reading arond the text, I keep seeing it dampened by comments like “good works are an evidence of real faith” while maintaining it is faith alone. Here is that passage:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
For some reason Luther cited Abraham as offering his son on the altar as proof of Faith Alone with works as “evidence of true faith” instead of works as part of the process. It says “justified by works” a few times in this chapter. In v22 it couldnt be more clear that faith is an ongoing thing, never a one time now and forever moment of justification, it says “completed by works” as in not coming after complete justification but before and during the process.

You cite points 10 and 12 from Luther’s sermon in your comments, but for some unknown reason you leave out point 11, a crucial paragraph to our discussion:

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works…”

You seem to be skipping over the essential parts of relevant text to this entire thread you started- that is, those sections from Luther that explain he clearly taught true faith shows itself by its works, and that he did not teach “cheap grace”.

I saw nothing worth mentioning in that paragraph. He talks about St James, why doesnt he show the people 2:21?, I mean he references that exact passage of Abraham in the previous paragraph. I dont know why he bothered to cite James. As for the rest of it, there wasnt much to say considering what Luther says next.

Also from point 11:

“For this reason the Holy Spirit urges works, that they may be witnesses of faith. In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. …”

These comment from Luther should end our discussion once and for all. It should also show you clearly that Catholics who malign Luther for teaching sola fide don’t know what they’re talking about. Now that you’ve been informed, you can join me in correcting slander against Luther- because, shouldn’t those who claim to be Christians not stand up against slander? … By misrepresenting the teaching of Luther, we curse him and commit sin…

It doesnt end the discussion because there is more to the letter that we havnt talked about yet. Go onto the very next paragraph and you will see Luther tries to have it both ways, thats why I didnt consider paragraph 11 as relevant because there are strong key passages that follow that indicate he was not talking about what you think. Here is a important thing that follows:Faith alone must make us good and save us.
that was just one part of p12, p13 was just as bad:if you believe, then you have the kingdom of heaven; and yet, in order that you may not deceive yourselves, do the works.
So what is it do the works prove anything or do you have the kingdom in the bag?
Im not misrepresenting anything, its clear he singles out Faith Alone at all costs.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid-

Where in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican does Jesus teach justification achieved by works?

Its not about faith alone as I said in post 359 where I said a bit more.

What Luther is saying in point 13 is that only a living faith is a saving faith. Re-read point 11. If no works follow, chances are, the faith professed is not saving faith. Luther says in point 13: “if you believe, then you have the kingdom of heaven; and yet, in order that you may not deceive yourselves, do the works.” Luther realized that balance is to be sought here. In point 12 he states,

In that line you quote he is not saying a living faith is a saving faith, he says, first off, you have heaven, second he says do the works just to be on the “safe” side.

1. Errors occur in 2 instances: when one says faith only means no good works are needed and also when works are preached people trust in them for their salvation.

Hold on, “errors occur”? Who says they are errors? He says above “Faith alone must save us”, why wouldn’t someone conclude that works are not needed? He goes onto say that works are a distant second and that God only included the works for a mere secondary reason to compliment those who are already justified.

1. Luther’s solution: The gift of faith justifies us and it produces works (recall the words of Jesus- a good tree produces good fruit)

And do those works save/condemn or not?

1. God will not justify those people with a false faith.

And what is a “false faith”? Who would have faith in Jesus and think that their faith is false? As I said before, they go in on sunday and are justified by faith alone, then on monday they rob a bank. Were they ever justified? If you dont know what your going to do tomorrow then you cant claim assurance on justification by faith alone.

1. Works are a witness that one has saving faith. They serve as descriptive sign that one has faith. Luther says elsewhere:

“Faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing and it is impossible that it should not do good without ceasing…

So why does he trash the priests and nuns who live quite prayerful lives? Were they not doing just what Luther is describing? What about all the saints? Did they not do what Luther is saying?

The editors of Luther’s works point out, “Although [Luther] did not condemn the monastic life as such, he did state that it could lead to a perversion of the gospel, and that as monasticism was then practiced it was almost universally pernicious.”

Who are the editors or Luther to say that? How does it lead to a perversion of the Gospel? Here is a perfect example of protestantism destroying historical Christianity. What happened just now is many of the Church Fathers and Saints were washed away and disregarded forever with the stroke of the pen of some “editors”.

To explain, Luther abhorred the pseudo-works of pilgrimages, idolatry, monkery, self-denials, etc.,

Again, your the one talking slander, you slip in terms like “Idolatry” which are unfounded by the largest leaps. Pilgrimages were very historical and very moving and edifying, who wouldnt want to go to Jerusalem to walk where Jesus walked? Monkery? That was going on from the start of the Church, men who devoted themself to a chaste, prayerful life, however now proudly slandered and attacked by the first “reformers”.
Self denials? I dont even know where you have the nerve to talk bad about that.

which were considered “good works” one does for oneself on the road to eventual salvation.

And the difference is Luther wanted it now now now, no works, no troubles, no sacraments, no nothing, just instant justification in the simplest and most pain free way, faith alone.

These types of works are the height of selfishness. They are all about oneself, and do nothing to help the neighbor.

I cant believe you openly admit such nonsense. Totally unfounded and unBiblical.

The editors of Luther’s Works point out, “To go beyond what Christ commands and enjoins is not faith, but sin. Those things a monk vows are not peculiar to the monastic life, but are required of all Christians. True Christian obedience is that which makes a man humble and unites him to his neighbor. True poverty is to seek not one’s own, but to employ what one has for the welfare of one’s neighbor. Monasticism’s understanding of these vows is superficial and external, and does not proceed from faith.”

Who are these “editors” and who do they think they are? Total slander and smear tactics of the lowest order. Total disregard for all Church history, which is what protestants love. UnBiblical to the highest degree. Pure and shameless slander by those editors.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid-

I know that Roman Catholics believe meritorious works are a condition for salvation. Are you aware of the Protestant response to Luke 18:18-23?

“There is no evidence here or elsewhere that Jesus taught that good works are a condition of salvation. Jesus’ answer was not intended as a plan of salvation but as proof of the young man’s condemnation. The law does not save (Rom. 3:28), but it does condemn (Rom. 3:19). The “law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). Jesus was trying to demonstrate to the young man that he stood condemned before the law. His unwillingness to give his money to the poor revealed that he had not even kept the first great commandment to love God more than his money or anything else (cf. Matt. 22:36–37).Further, Jesus was showing that even the rich young ruler’s question was confused. For one does not “do” anything to get an inheritance of any kind, including eternal life. An “inheritance” is a gift. Indeed, eternal life is presented throughout the Bible as a gift (John 3:36; 5:24; 20:31; Rom. 6:23; 1 John 5:13). And one cannot work for a gift. As Paul said, “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4–5). The only “work” by which someone can be saved is “faith.” For when Jesus was asked, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” Jesus replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He sent” (John 6:29 NASB)."

The Protestant response? Would that include a single citation from a historical source like the Church Fathers?
Would it include references to the words of Jesus instead of full of passages from Romans? Thats an interesting thing I have seen for a long time. If you ask a protestant to defend his positions its always 75% from Romans, hardly ever the direct words of Jesus. Not that Romans is wrong, just an incomplete and misconstructed view when separated from the words of Jesus. But anyway…why did you end at v23? If you read you will see thats not where Jesus stops talking, right there is a serious error in concluding what Jesus did or did not teach. This protestant defense consisted of half quotes from here and there and avoided the context of Lk18:18ff.

The real ending of that long discourse is v30.29 Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.

 

[Assurance]

Steve,

You said:

The reason God judges some people into heaven through Jesus’ blood and others into eternal damnation, is based on an individual’s love for God. God tells us that those who love Him, through obedience which is our faith, enter into heaven through Jesus. Those who hate God, through unrepentant sinfulness which is faithlessness, will be destroyed in the fires of hell.

Do you also acuse Jesus of teaching that people earn their way to heaven?

I talked about this on a different post elsewhere (please see the portions in orange):

Before anything else, devout Lutherans essentially define faith as fiducia, meaning a “reliance of the heart, confidence, trust” in the promised mercy of God in Christ Jesus through the Word and Sacraments which give unequivocal and infallible grace. So, what does the Catholic Encyclopedia mean by fiducia, or “trustfulness”? Saying “trustful” certainly seems to put the emphasis on the one trusting. However, if I vouch for a man and say “I trust him”, am I really making a comment about myself or him? I think the focus is clearly on him and his reliability – the focus is on the other. I submit that faith is in no way about virtue, a “good quality in man”, “correct conduct”, an “ethical act”, a “self decision in favor of grace”, nor is it about “due merit”. No. If faith is “formed by love” in any sense, it is not formed by our love or “good character”, but by the love and good character of the One who is Love and who creates and engenders trust (fiducia) in us. Indeed, if by the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God a person comes to the realization that they are a wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked (Rev 3:17) sinner and becomes utterly convinced that they have absolutely no recourse/option/hope but to run and cling to Jesus Christ who tells them to come to Him for healing and dress, is this a great act of virtue on the sinner’s part? Pushing this even further, is trust always necessarily associated with good and virtuous things? Hardly. This is only true if the One who is trusted is good. It is not the “good, humble” person who attains to and therefore receives (deserves??? – then what of “good and bad - come to the feast!”?) mercy, but the humblED person period who is able to receive it. Fortunately, the One who has humbles Christians with His Law is the only One who is really Good.

What else can be said about faith? Well, as Ephesians 2:8-10, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:24, 28, 4:5, 16 and 11:6 clearly indicate, when “justification by faith” is concerned it is clearly set against not only “works of law” but “works” (works of love, mercy, the things we DO, etc), period. The point of the law is seen clearly in Romans 3:20 and following – that we may see our sin so we may see our Savior. All is only finished / accomplished / paid in Christ (the Only One who really can fulfill Romans 2 : 5-11). Faith justifies inasmuch as it accepts the paid and receipted bill, believes that God raised the Savior from the dead, and that He justifies not “transformed man” but “the ungodly”. Christian faith is in its very nature faith in remission of sins provided by Christ’s substitutional satisfaction. Faith justifies and saves, not on the ground that it is a work in itself worthy, but only because it receives promised mercy. Faith is all taking and no giving (whereas I think love involves both). Faith is pure receptivity, simply receiving that which is offered. Faith takes no credit; faith only receives credit. Indeed as the great 17th century Lutheran theologian John Gerhardt said “It is one thing to be justified on account of faith and another to be justified by faith.” Indeed, faith only justifies in so far as it receives and is attached to justification after the manner of a passive instrument. Indeed, as it pertains to our justification, we must say that grace is not about the energy or power of God in us, but about the attitude of God towards us: Indeed, as grace pertains to justification, “grace is not something for which I must look in my heart. It is in the heart of God. Grace cannot be found in me, but is outside of me” (CFW Walther, first president of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod). And that object taken hold of by justifying faith is “Christ outside of us” or the promise of the Gospel.

 

[Assurance]

cont…

…Where does “faith working through love” come in? This act of love follows on the footsteps of faith which apprehends the promised mercy as a latter, second activity (in us, it’s not a “First Thing” to quote C.S. Lewis!) of the soul. “First the hand of the beggar grasps the treasure; after that he rejoices; after that he loves.” (quoted in Francis Peiper, Christian Dogmatics, vol. 2, p. 427). This is what Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees in Luke 7 about the woman who displayed the evidence of love because she had realized that she needed to be forgiven much. We can all say the same. And to us broken sinners as well, He says: “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

Steve, in short, love is a “good work”, and involves something we do for God. God commands us to do this with our whole heart and we can’t do that… therefore our love can never justify us. Only Christ’s love can justify us by faith.

Its why we can have assurance. I note TertiumQuid:

I have never met a Roman Catholic who knows they are saved. In fact, the very well respected Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott has said, “The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this: that without a special revelation nobody can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for achieving justification.”

Read more here if you haven’t checked these out already:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…35&postcount=87

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…36&postcount=88

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthre…6&page=2&pp=100

Catholic Dude, you might find all of the above quite informative to as you try to understand how folks from the Reformation see faith - and yes, we believe it is how Jesus, the apostles, Paul and the Fathers viewed faith as well.

 

[Assurance]

Steve,

Again, you said:

Why is it that Protestants always want to teach Catholocism? Is it because they want manipulate and distort Catholocism to benifite Protestantism. Is this not correct?

The only way to go to heaven is through God’s merciful gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Catholics believe this…

You will note that I did quote from Trent. I was at least trying to let Catholicism teach Catholicism.

Here is that paragraph again:

Further, when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God (like Trent: Canon 32 “If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase in glory, let him be anathema.”), or was Paul already perfectly righteous and holy in Christ, in whom he had all things (Unlike Trent: Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema).

Again, “when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God?”

Aren’t you and Trent saying that one’s love (which I understand to be a good work) for God makes one acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before him? I do want to represent you accurately - to understand you on your terms - of course. I imagine you don’t think love is a good work and so I just ask that you try to understand why I do (see two posts ago)

Trent: If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema

OK, this seems clear to me. Even though I cling to Christ’s blood and righteousness - His perfect life and innocent death as my only hope before a holy God, I can still, somehow, do “works of superrogation” that go beyond what God has called and expects me to do, even though Christ explicitly says we are to say “we have only done what is required of us”.

Am I still being unfair? I DO want to accurately represent what you teach.

 

[Assurance]

Steve,

Again, you said:

Why is it that Protestants always want to teach Catholocism? Is it because they want manipulate and distort Catholocism to benifite Protestantism. Is this not correct?

The only way to go to heaven is through God’s merciful gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Catholics believe this…

You will note that I did quote from Trent. I was at least trying to let Catholicism teach Catholicism.

Here is that paragraph again:

Further, when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God (like Trent: Canon 32 “If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase in glory, let him be anathema.”), or was Paul already perfectly righteous and holy in Christ, in whom he had all things (Unlike Trent: Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema).

Again, “when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God?”

Aren’t you and Trent saying that one’s love (which I understand to be a good work) for God makes one acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before him? I do want to represent you accurately - to understand you on your terms - of course. I imagine you don’t think love is a good work and so I just ask that you try to understand why I do (see two posts ago)

Trent: If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema

OK, this seems clear to me. Even though I cling to Christ’s blood and righteousness - His perfect life and innocent death as my only hope before a holy God, I can still, somehow, do “works of superrogation” that go beyond what God has called and expects me to do, even though Christ explicitly says we are to say “we have only done what is required of us”.

Am I still being unfair? I DO want to accurately represent what you teach.

 

[Assurance]

Steve and Catholic Dude:

The following is a quote from our Confessions (Phillip Melanchton) about the importance of doing good works and the danger of falling into sin and losing salvation. Steve, I know you’d like a quote or two from Luther from our official Confessions (I know there is a good one in the Smalcald articles) saying the same.

Catholic Dude, I think this may help you understand how Luther can believe “faith alone” (again, please see my posts on how Lutherans understand faith!) and yet tell people to, as you put it “do the works just to be on the ‘safe’ side.”

Commenting on II Peter 1:10:

Peter is talking about the works that follow the forgiveness of sins and teaches why they should be done, namely, in order to confirm their calling, that is, so that they do not fall from their calling by sinning again. Do good works to persevere in your calling and to keep from losing the gifts of your calling, which were given beforehand, not on account of the works that follow, and which are now retained by faith. Faith does not remain in those who lose the Holy Spirit and reject repentance. As we said above, faith exists in repentance. (Apology XX:13)

I hope this helps a little bit. Notice we already have all the good works in Christ that God has prepared for us to do. In other words, “works of superrogation” must be a fantasy in this scheme.

Love in Christ,
Assurance

PS Catholic Dude, regarding James, I think that works do complete faith and justification, but not justification before the eyes of God, but before the eyes of men. I also note that James is clearly defining faith differently from Paul to begin with.

PPS In case you guys noticed I can’t stay away! My homework for class tonight will suffer…

 

[Assurance]

Well, that wasn’t hard! Check the following stuff out from the paper below. It is all the more pertinent and convincing in that it is written by a faithful Lutheran pastor in Canada, who is a part of the more liberal Lutheran Church body up there (the ELCIC) to his fellow pastors:

elcic.ca/docs/2005/eriksson2.pdf

One theme that we find in the quote above is the possibility of Christians losing their
salvation—falling away from grace. Lutheran thinking down through the years has stressed that it is possible to slide away from salvation and Luther believed this as well. The Lutheran theologians in the first two hundred years after Luther (a period usually referred to as the era of “Lutheran Orthodoxy”) also taught that it was possible for Christians to lose their salvation. The idea that Christians can lose their salvation also shows up in a number of places in the Lutheran Confessions. Here is one of Luther’s statements from the Smalcald Articles: “It is therefore necessary to know and to teach that when holy people,… fall into open sin (As David fell into adultery, murder and blasphemy), faith and the Spirit have departed from them” (Tappert p. 310). Now Lutheran theologians haven’t just pulled this notion out of a hat somewhere. The idea of
that we can lose our salvation is right from the teachings of St. Paul. For example: 1 Cor.
9:27: So that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.” And we see other verses with the same idea in Gal. 5:21, 6:7-8; Rom. 6:15-16, 8:9, 8:12-13; and Phil. 2:12, and 3:11,16. In all of these places Paul stresses that a Christian may possibly lose his or her status as a member of the community of salvation by refusing to repent. Luther reflects on Paul’s teachings in his 1535 Galatians commentary when he writes, “those who sin because of weakness, even if they do it often, will not be denied forgiveness, provided that they rise again and do not persist in their sins; for persistence of sin is worst of all.”
He then goes on to say concerning Gal. 5:19: Different people are tempted in different ways, according to the diversity in their makeup or attitude. One person is subject to graver feelings,… another to more obvious ones, such as sexual desire, anger or hatred. But here Paul demands of us that we walk by the Spirit and resist the flesh. Anyone who
yields to his flesh and persists in smugly gratifying its desires should know that he does not belong to Christ; though he may pride himself ever so much on the title “Christian,” he is merely deceiving himself.
The quotes from Luther certainly demonstrate that he not only had no intention to preach or encourage moral laxity but that he also had a firm place for the role of law in the life of the Christian saved by grace. As is evident above, in Luther’s own thinking it is possible for one to lose salvation or fall from grace for wilful and unrepentant disobedience of God’s law. Although, anyone who decides not to persist in sin can of course be restored to grace. Luther’s teachings on this subject are in perfect agreement with what we see in the Scriptures and in the Lutheran Confessions that we vow to preach by.

It is worth remembering that during our ordination services Lutheran pastors are asked to give “no occasion for false security or illusory hope.” If we are faithful to our Scriptures, the Lutheran Confessions and Luther’s teachings (which agree with these other documents), we have to acknowledge that deliberate persistence in sin is not a trivial matter. In addition to hurting ourselves and others, deliberate and persistent sin can cause a breach in our relationship with God—a fall from grace.

We have seen that Luther and the Lutheran Confessions do not have much sympathy for the notion that it is permissible to deliberately persist in sin. Since this is the case, we also then cannot justify the deliberate decision to persist in homosexual behaviour. If we allowed same-sex blessings, we as a church would in effect be saying that deliberate persistence in homosexual sin is acceptable. And if we did this we would be violating our ELCIC constitution and our ordination vows as pastors to teach and preach according to the Scriptures and the Confessions. We may not always like this fact, but this is the reality our situation and the vows that we have taken as pastors. Luther and the Confessions state that one can lose one’s salvation for persisting in sin. This fact then has to inform not just our approach to homosexuality, but to other issues as well.

Steve, do you find this satisfactory?

 

[Assurance]

I apologize to everyone over my incompetence with putting links in here.

Here they are again Steve. I think they are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, and are ultimately, what was driving Luther:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007135&postcount=87

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007136&postcount=88

or the whole thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096&page=1&pp=100

 

[Mickey]

TertiumQuid:

Jesus makes his point in verses 31-32. “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.”

Now Jesus was speaking to the chief priests and the elders (aka: pious religious people). He says that gross sinners will enter the kingdom of God because they believed on Jesus.

Correction. Tax collectors and harlots will enter the kindom of God because they **repented **and **believed on Jesus. **

 

[Assurance]

Mickey,

No one will argue with you there. But repentence is not a work, but defined narrowly includes sorrow over sins and faith or trust - it is turning from one’s sins to Christ for pardon and power.

Catholic Dude,

Earlier, we had this exchange:

Quote:
Me:
But, at rock-bottom, everything is performance based. The orphan is told that he must not have absolute certainty that their relationship is secure.

You:
I dont know where this came from. Thats not how a parent acts. The definition of relationship is commitment by BOTH parties, not a one way street. It would be not love for the father to say the child will never be lost, because that father would be limiting the child to a one sided relationship.

Its seems to me that you do not have a real understanding of what kind of assurance you as a Roman Catholic are permitted to have. I suggest you read those two links I’ve been pushing on everyone when you get the time.

You are right in saying that “that’s not how a parent acts”. Yet this is precisely how Roman Catholic theology explains God the Father acting.

Love in Christ,
Assurance

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

No one will argue with you there.
But repentence is not a work, but defined narrowly includes sorrow over sins and faith or trust - it is turning from one’s sins to Christ for pardon and power.

In order to be repentent, you must first recognize your sins and confess them to God. Is confession something that we do? Is “turning from one’s sins to Christ for pardon and power” something that we do?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Assurance:

Catholic Dude,

Interesting point you’ve put forth about Scripture not talking about us sinning all the time (at least mortally).

I hope that you will let that quote about small sins becoming mortal when they are considered small to seep in.

You’ve got me curious now about how many good verses I could find that we are in fact sinning all the time (sounds like Genesis 6 I think)!

For my part though, my experience a big part of it. Jesus said even lusting after a woman was a sin. Bzzzt! - often. Being angry. Bzzzt! - often. I don’t know - maybe I am “getting better every day and in every way” but then why do I see more and more sin in me all the time?

Jesus said to his disciples “you then, though you are evil…” why did he say that - especially when he told them in Luke 10 to not rejoice that their names “ARE written in the book of life…” (to get back to assurance! - ARE WRITTEN). Why is God letting evil men in?

(By the way, in the Roman Catholic system, man was created weak and immature - even without the fall, man would have tended to sin (as baptism removes the original sin that occured in the fall) - even though God created him “very good”.

POI: From a Catholic POV, man was created able not to sin - not with a tendency to sin. This may be an important point​

In the

Lutheran conception, man was immature but perfect (kind of an immature, infant-like perfection) - he was able not to sin in the beginning and there’s no reason as best as we can tell that he had to fall into it. So, our conception of sin is heavier than the RCC’s)

Oh, and just give me some more time to think about this! How about Romans 7 - “I know there is nothing good in me…” (this confirms my experience!).

This is serious stuff. For God is a consuming fire and His eys are too pure to look upon that evil within me. Whatever shall I do?

Romans 7:25.

In Jesus we ARE saved. What can we do? Nothing. Keep believing that Jesus has done it all, as you “work out” in your daily experience this salvation that God has already “worked in”.

Keep the faith.

 

[Assurance]

Gottle,

Yes, you are right here, I’m sure. As I wrote later, I took that back. I should have written “would tend toward concupiscence”, right? Otherwise, why would supernatural grace need to be added to what was created by nature? (hence, “fall from grace”). Again, I think in Rome’s system from the get-go there is seems to have been a greater likelihood to fall into sin because man had to have supernatural grace added to what God had already created by nature.

Mickey,

Good question. The answer is that strictly speaking, repentance is not something we do. God works repentance in people with the Law, and then saves sorrowful sinners through His Gospel (the good news of the forgiveness of sins for Christ’s sake). Even repentance, like faith, is a gift of God (see Acts, where there are two mentions of this). That said, faith, though it is not something we “do” (technically speaking its not a “work”, a “work of the law”, a “work of love”, a “work of mercy”, etc), in that it is “all taking and no giving”, nevertheless, it is an action of sorts that occurs in our hearts and when we in our hearts and minds cling to Christ for the forgiveness of sins, it is really US doing it, even though God is doing it in us. Repentance can be looked upon in a similar fashion, in that it can be seen as being a part of faith. For example, the Law tells me I’m a sinner and I believe it (faith). When presented with the Gospel that tells me that Christ has paid the price and that there is nothing that I can do, I believe that as well. All of this happens internally, and Christ is turned to for pardon (forgiveness) and, of course power (because you are convinced that the sin you’ve been convicted of is wrong and separates you from God - you aren’t turning from it because you think its a good thing to keep on doing!)

As far as penance, or works done after forgiveness (“Go and sin no more”) a Christian should be willing to do this naturally, following confession and absolution. If they do not, surely one must wonder whether they have truly heard (been affected by) God’s Law and Gospel, or if they have heard what they want to hear (their fantasy, illusion, idol, “another Jesus” - II Cor 11:3,4) and are letting the sin which is crouching at their door in. If such is the case, barring no future repentance, faith will eventually find itself on the outside, and loss of salvation will occur.

Strictly speaking though, the penance after absolution does not save us, but is evidence that we are saved.

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

Good question. The answer is that strictly speaking, repentance is not something we do.

I beg to disagree. Our faith compells us to confess our sins. Confession is a work in faith–so is prayer.

Assurance:

If such is the case, barring no future repentance, faith will eventually find itself on the outside, and loss of salvation will occur.

So you are saying it is possible to lose our salvation?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

Again, “when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God?”

Aren’t you and Trent saying that one’s love (which I understand to be a good work) for God makes one acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before him? I do want to represent you accurately - to understand you on your terms - of course. I imagine you don’t think love is a good work and so I just ask that you try to understand why I do (see two posts ago)

The reason Catholics have the Mass and believe Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord is because it is through His sacrifice on the cross that we are cleansed and made acceptable to God to enter into heaven. There is no way to “earn” your way around Jesus sacrifice on the cross for us. Do you agree that this is what Catholics believe?

The reason Jesus judges the baptized, into heaven through His sacrifice on the cross or hell, is based on our love for God. Love for God which is accomplished through our free-willed obedience to God. Love for God which is our faith in God.

Assurance said “**I imagine you don’t think love is a good work” **

What part do you not understand about Christ’s teachings that obedience to God and doing His will to feed the poor is love?

INT 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

NAB DEU 11:1

“Love the LORD, your God, therefore, and always heed his charge: his statutes, decrees and commandments.”

**NAB 2JO 1:5 **

But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.
**NAB ROM 13 Love Fulfills the Law. **

Owe no debt to anyone except the debt that binds us to love one another. **He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment there may be are all summed up in this, saying (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.**NAB JOH 15:22

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.” NAB SIR 28:7

Think of the commandments, hate not your neighbor;

NAB DEU 5:9

“. . . you shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”