Luther! Read Read!

[Steven_Merten]

(continued)

Jesus teaches us that to do works of charity for one’s neighbor is to love Jesus.

NAB MAT 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

Mickey,

No one will argue with you there. But repentence is not a work, but defined narrowly includes sorrow over sins and faith or trust - it is turning from one’s sins to Christ for pardon and power.

Love in Christ,
Assurance

Hello Assurance,

So a person is going to have an abortion. Do you believe that as long as the person is sorriful for the upcoming abortion and they trust in Christ there is no need of the work to turn away from the upcoming abortion and turn to obedience to God? Do you think that obedience and refrainig from sin is not a work?

One couple is staying chast before marriage, is this not a work? Can an unmarried couple who continue on in a life of sin, fall under the catagory of living a life or repentance? Can the fornicators say, “I have repented, though I continue to fornicate, I have handed over all my sins of continued fornication to Jesus and I am assured of salvation”? Not murdering your neighbor, is this not a work? Keeping holy the Sabbath, is this not a work?

How can one repent from sin without turning to the works of obedience to God?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

elcic.ca/docs/2005/eriksson2.pdf One theme that we find in the quote above is the possibility of Christians losing their
salvation—falling away from grace. Lutheran thinking down through the years has stressed that it is possible to slide away from salvation and Luther believed this as well. The Lutheran theologians in the first two hundred years after Luther (a period usually referred to as the era of “Lutheran Orthodoxy”) also taught that it was possible for Christians to lose their salvation. The idea that Christians can lose their salvation also shows up in a number of places in the Lutheran Confessions. Here is one of Luther’s statements from the Smalcald Articles: “It is therefore necessary to know and to teach that when holy people,… fall into open sin (As David fell into adultery, murder and blasphemy), faith and the Spirit have departed from them” (Tappert p. 310). Now Lutheran theologians haven’t just pulled this notion out of a hat somewhere. The idea of
that we can lose our salvation is right from the teachings of St. Paul. For example: 1 Cor.
9:27: So that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.” And we see other verses with the same idea in Gal. 5:21, 6:7-8; Rom. 6:15-16, 8:9, 8:12-13; and Phil. 2:12, and 3:11,16. In all of these places Paul stresses that a Christian may possibly lose his or her status as a member of the community of salvation by refusing to repent. Luther reflects on Paul’s teachings in his 1535 Galatians commentary when he writes, “those who sin because of weakness, even if they do it often, will not be denied forgiveness, provided that they rise again and do not persist in their sins; for persistence of sin is worst of all.”
He then goes on to say concerning Gal. 5:19: Different people are tempted in different ways, according to the diversity in their makeup or attitude. One person is subject to graver feelings,… another to more obvious ones, such as sexual desire, anger or hatred. But here Paul demands of us that we walk by the Spirit and resist the flesh. Anyone who **
yields to his flesh and persists in smugly gratifying its desires should know that he does not belong to Christ; though he may pride himself ever so much on the title “Christian,” he is merely deceiving himself.
The quotes from Luther certainly demonstrate that he not only had no intention to preach or encourage moral laxity but that he also had a firm place for the role of law in the life of the Christian saved by grace. As is evident above, Although, anyone who decides not to persist in sin can of coin Luther’s own thinking it is possible for one to lose salvation or fall from grace for wilful and unrepentant disobedience of God’s law. **urse be restored to grace. Luther’s teachings on this subject are in perfect agreement with what we see in the Scriptures and in the Lutheran Confessions that we vow to preach by.

It is worth remembering that during our ordination services Lutheran pastors are asked to give “no occasion for false security or illusory hope.” If we are faithful to our Scriptures, the Lutheran Confessions and Luther’s teachings (which agree with these other documents), we have to acknowledge that deliberate persistence in sin is not a trivial matter. In addition to hurting ourselves and others, deliberate and persistent sin can cause a breach in our relationship with God—a fall from grace.

Hello Assurance,

If your above post is true about Luther, then were did all this Protestant (Luther himslef included) opposition to Christ’s call to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life, come from?

Luther****The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live." The theology that a baby or adult is brought into grace through baptism but can leave grace for damnation by sinning is a Catholic belief. It is my experience that most Protestants mock and hate the Catholic belief that we must obey God to go to heaven through Jesus. Now you are bringing up quotes that Luther teaches this as well.

So according to your above quote, if it is truly Luther’s thoughts, Luther does believe that the baptized will be judged according to thier conduct in relation to the law as to who goes to heaven through Jesus and who goes to hell. Is this correct?

 

[Steven_Merten]

(continued)

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)

. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

**NAB **REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[Assurance]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assurance
Good question. The answer is that strictly speaking, repentance is not something we do.

Mickey:
I beg to disagree. Our faith compells us to confess our sins. Confession is a work in faith–so is prayer.

Mickey, strictly speaking, confession and prayer are not required to come to faith. Often they do accompany faith, but it is not absolutely necessary. Further, a Christian can exercise their faith (or shall I say “have it exercised”) in Christ without confession and prayer (though certainly prayer and confession are a regular outward expression of faith).

Example: One friend tells another friend about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word creates faith and the person is saved. He might say a “sinner’s prayer” but he says this because his heart has already been transformed by the powerful, life-giving message of the Word of God (namely, “Behold! The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world), and so he confesses his sins and prays. These actions are a fruit of his faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assurance
If such is the case, barring no future repentance, faith will eventually find itself on the outside, and loss of salvation will occur.

Mickey:
So you are saying it is possible to lose our salvation?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I am a Lutheran, and that’s what Lutherans have always believed (and of course the early church in whose tradition we believe we follow). I encourage you to look into what we teach more, perhaps by reading more of this thread. Also, there is a great new reader’s edition of “The Book of Concord” available now ($20.00 until Christmas) from Concordia Publishing House.

 

[Assurance]

Steve:
The reason Catholics have the Mass and believe Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord is because it is through His sacrifice on the cross that we are cleansed and made acceptable to God to enter into heaven. There is no way to “earn” your way around Jesus sacrifice on the cross for us. Do you agree that this is what Catholics believe?

Yes, with qualifiers of course. It is His sacrifice which provides you with the substance of grace, which infused into you, causes you to do good works which make you acceptable to God and “heaven-worthy” – as Trent says, to “merit” His approval. This, you believe, is all done through the power of His blood and righteousness, which works powerfully in you. Also, there is no way to “earn” your way around Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for you, as you say. However, your Church also teaches that people of good will who do good works with the light given to them will be acceptable to God through Christ (His blood and righteousness) even though they do not consciously have faith in Him. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I also believe your Church knows of a salvation without faith by works alone (all through Christ’s blood and righteousness alone).

Steve: Love for God which is our faith in God.

Steve, I would like you to show me where this is found in Scripture? I would agree that faith, as it grows, naturally develops into love for God, though I would deny that the love God gives us for Him saves us. His love for us saves us. I think faith and love are quite clearly shown to be distinct in Scripture.

Steve: What part do you not understand about Christ’s teachings that obedience to God and doing His will to feed the poor is love?

Steve, you don’t understand me. Of course Christ teaches that obedience to God and doing His will to feed the poor is love. Of course, it should be done with the right spirit, and this particularly means doing it not to be saved, but out of thankfulness for being saved. Otherwise, it is only a good work externally, benefiting the neighbor physically but not spiritually. God doesn’t need my good works – the neighbor does. I serve and love God by serving others. I have been called out of darkness to do good works. Again, these have nothing to do with my salvation. I already have that in Christ.

 

[Assurance]

Hello Assurance,

So a person is going to have an abortion. Do you believe that as long as the person is sorriful for the upcoming abortion and they trust in Christ there is no need of the work to turn away from the upcoming abortion and turn to obedience to God? Do you think that obedience and refrainig from sin is not a work?

One couple is staying chast before marriage, is this not a work? Can an unmarried couple who continue on in a life of sin, fall under the catagory of living a life or repentance? Can the fornicators say, “I have repented, though I continue to fornicate, I have handed over all my sins of continued fornication to Jesus and I am assured of salvation”? Not murdering your neighbor, is this not a work? Keeping holy the Sabbath, is this not a work?

How can one repent from sin without turning to the works of obedience to God?

Steve, I think you are probably sounding an awful lot like the opponents Paul responded to when he said:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Did you even read my previous post (with the Lutheran pastor from Canada talking about very similar issues [regarding homosexual behavior there])? I am frustrated, because I feel like I must walk on eggshells to correctly represent what your Church teaches (and this is good for me), and yet, you seem to not hold yourself to a similar standard. As you should have read there: sin drives out faith and we lose our salvation, and faith exists only in repentance. After all, the entire Reformation began with Luther talking not about faith, but about repentance: “1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance”

So what can I say? We as Christians have no other life but Christ’s? With Him, the old has gone and the new has come. In light of Him, His Kingdom, and the forgiveness unto eternal life He brings, how can we go on sinning? His love has captivates us.

How about this, which is something I wrote to you a long while back:
And yet, fully freed by Christ, the Christian joyfully fulfills the law (Rom 8:4!). They have no other life but that life which Christ perfectly lived, fulfilling the Law in love. In this sense, in each moment of obedience, faith is preserved in the sanctified life by Christ. It is only within the confines of this life in, with, and through Christ that they are free from the accusations of the law, from the life and faith-destroying power of sin, from death, and the devil. For in our baptism we have been given in totality the very life of Christ, which is the life of the One who does the will of the Father, hearing the Word and doing it, thereby weathering the dangers of life’s eternal storms (Matthew 7). This is significant, because the very life of Christ is our life as well! (Gal. 2:20) Truly, all things find their beginning and end in Him. Insofar as a Christian is a new creature in Christ, abiding in Him and walking according to the Spirit can only mean true freedom (James 2), safety (Matthew 7), and a lack of burden (Matthew 11, I John 4).

Now, to fall into sin and lose faith and salvation is one thing and doing good works is another. Just because one avoids sin does not mean that one necessarily does good works. But again, we have the perfect obedience of Jesus given to us (Romans 5), and Ephesians 2:10 tells us that God has prepared good works in advance for us to do. Jesus’ work of proclaiming and confessing the Kingdom is our work as well, and we already have all things – all our good works – in Him. Good works do not contribute to the salvation that we already have, but they can “keep us busy” and help us avoid the sin which can destroy our salvation. Good works, of course, can be done from the motive of thanksgiving for God’s gifts in Christ, though this is not done perfectly by us, as we are always contributing sin to the process. However, evil works can never be done from the motive of thanksgiving for God’s gifts in Christ.

cont

 

[Assurance]

cont

Again Steve – as it said in that passage from Melanchton: “Do good works to persevere in your calling and to keep from losing the gifts of your calling, which were given beforehand, not on account of the works that follow, and which are now retained by faith.

Look at the highlighted portion. You see that the gifts of our calling (the “all things” we possess fully in Christ) were given beforehand not on account of the works that follow, and that the gifts of our calling are now retained by FAITH, from which of course, works naturally follow.

In short, the woman must not get an abortion and refraining from sin is not a good work – rather it is turning from sin to Christ (faith! – all taking and no giving) to avoid an evil work.

To answer your other questions: “No, no, no, no, no.” The last one is a little tricky, about the “going to church”, but gathering with the people of God and “coming to the feast”, or the Divine Service to receive the gracious gifts of our God (the Means of Grace, the Word and Sacrament, by which we are forgiven and receive assurance of our forgiveness and sonship) is no more a good work than the person who comes to the font to be baptized. It is faith – all taking and no giving. Of course, there is response in worship, but the focus on worship is what God is doing, which is forgiving us, thereby giving us His strength to go back out into the world to proclaim His mighty deeds.

In other words, partaking frequently of the “Means of Grace” is most properly understood as a call to be nourished by God’s Word of the Gospel – which is the only thing that gives us life and salvation (and proper motivation for good works). It is a call to simply take and not worry about our giving or lack thereof – “good and bad”, come to the feast, for “all is ready” in the Eucharist of our God in Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

Mickey, strictly speaking, confession and prayer are not required to come to faith.

That’s not what I said assurance. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the works of confession and prayer are fruits of our faith.

Assurance:

Often they do accompany faith, but it is not absolutely necessary.

Let me help you here. It’s not a matter of being necessary. It’s a matter of living a life in Christ. We cannot help but confess our sins and prayer to our Savior. It is an impossibility to have faith without prayer. Are you saying that we can have a vibrant faith, but we do not need to pray? No, no, no! Prayer becomes a part of our Christian lives. We yearn to be in the presence of our God.

Assurance:

Further, a Christian can exercise their faith (or shall I say “have it exercised”) in Christ without confession and prayer.

Impossibility. See above.

Assurance:

He might say a “sinner’s prayer” but he says this because his heart has already been transformed by the powerful, life-giving message of the Word of God (namely, “Behold! The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world), and so he confesses his sins and prays.These actions are a fruit of his faith.

Assurance:

Exactly! Works are the fruit of our faith. They are inseparable.

Assurance:

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I am a Lutheran, and that’s what Lutherans have always believed (and of course the early church in whose tradition we believe we follow). I encourage you to look into what we teach more, perhaps by reading more of this thread.

Half my family is Lutheran. I know what they teach. I agree with much of it–I disagree with some. My problem lies in the fact that different Lutheran Churches can have vastly different interpretations and “traditions”.

 

[Assurance]

Mickey,
That’s not what I said assurance. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the works of confession and prayer are fruits of our faith.

Sorry, Mickey. I guess we agree then. I do not think fruits of faith justify before God though.

We cannot help but confess our sins and prayer to our Savior. It is an impossibility to have faith without prayer. Are you saying that we can have a vibrant faith, but we do not need to pray? No, no, no! Prayer becomes a part of our Christian lives. We yearn to be in the presence of our God.

I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assurance
Further, a Christian can exercise their faith (or shall I say “have it exercised”) in Christ without confession and prayer.

Mickey
Impossibility. See above.

I don’t think its impossible, because when the Law convinces us that we are sinners and the Gospel convinces us that we are saved in Christ, this is all received by faith, before any confession or prayer leaves our mouths.

Mickey:
Half my family is Lutheran. I know what they teach. I agree with much of it–I disagree with some. My problem lies in the fact that different Lutheran Churches can have vastly different interpretations and “traditions”.

You are saying your family believes they can’t lose their salvation? Then they certainly aren’t believing in any traditional Lutheran doctrine! Check out the Book of Concord Mickey (its online too). You are right about different interpretations, but are you going to tell me with a straight face that there is no doctrinal diversity in the RCC communion? The fact, that you, as a Byzantine Catholic are in there, shows this. In short, Rome is a very, very big tent of doctrinal diversity though everyone has the Pope in common (and I guess this kind of makes it all OK), right?

Hey, I LOVE discussing this stuff. It is so good for me to learn more about the RCC (and Byzantine Church) and also to help me articulate what it is Lutherans believe in light of what I learn here. Thanks guys. Unfortunately, I need to really, really try to stay away for a while!

In Christ,
Assurance

 

[Mickey]

Assurance:

I don’t think its impossible, because when the Law convinces us that we are sinners and the Gospel convinces us that we are saved in Christ, this is all received by faith, before any confession or prayer leaves our mouths.

Again, we agree. By grace through faith we confess our sins and pray.

Assurance:

You are saying your family believes they can’t lose their salvation?

Yikes! I never said that! My family does not believe in OSAS.

Assurance:

You are right about different interpretations, but are you going to tell me with a straight face that there is no doctrinal diversity in the RCC communion?

Yes–with the straightest face I have. Perhaps you are confusing people’s misconceptions with actual teachings of the magisterium. Doctrine is doctrine. The magisterium does not teach relativism.

Assurance:

The fact, that you, as a Byzantine Catholic are in there, shows this. In short, Rome is a very, very big tent of doctrinal diversity though everyone has the Pope in common (and I guess this kind of makes it all OK), right?

Wrong. Perhaps you should research the Eastern Rite Church a bit more. We are in communion with Rome. The doctrine remains the same–we are all Catholic. It’s called the deposit of faith–apostolic succession.

Assurance:

Hey, I LOVE discussing this stuff. It is so good for me to learn more about the RCC (and Byzantine Church) and also to help me articulate what it is Lutherans believe in light of what I learn here. Thanks guys. Unfortunately, I need to really, really try to stay away for a while!

Yes. We are learn from eachother. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you on your journey, Assurance. I will pray for you and your family.

Peace,
Mickey

 

[Steven_Merten]

Assurance:

Steve, I think you are probably sounding an awful lot like the opponents Paul responded to when he said:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

cont

Hello Assurance,

You are confuseing me with the evil teachings of Luther. It is Luther that said,

Luther
No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

I said Jesus judges us into heaven through Him or hell based on our conduct. Obviously if we are judged by Jesus into eternal life through Him or eternal damnation based on our conduct, as I have stated, one should obey God in hopes of entering into life through Jesus.

Please watch that slippery tougue of yours.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance and James, Im busy till thursday, but i will get back asap

 

[Bishopite]

But where is the Synoptic evidence that demonstrates
that what Paul wrote is congruent with what Jesus said?

Thanks for your thought, But for Grace,

reen12

Perhaps you could qualify to me what you are saying here. Are you saying Paul’s writings don’t agree with the gospels?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hey Catholic Dude,

Be careful of Assurance. When he was isfatherwrong he distorted the truth and promoted the concept of our Pope as the anti-christ. I am sure that you recognize that Assurance is from the anti-Catholic camp. I have found him on different occasions distorting my words in the same way that Luther and the Pharisees perverted scriptures. Be sure to call Assurance on it when he distorts what you have said. Be sure to point out anti-Catholic methods to Catholic readers.

Your thread is going great!

Peace,
Steven

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Catholic Dude,

Have you had the chance to go to the Protestant site that Assurance posted the link to? elcic.ca/docs/2005/eriksson2.pdf

My take, after reading it, is that Luther realized, in his own life time, the damage he had done in his rejection of Jesus teaching to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. It seems that Luther realized that many were promoting “cheap grace”, abandonment of God’s law and that there was no problem at all to continue on in sin. Say it isnt’ so! People took Luther’s concept of “faith alone” and Luther’s teaching that the law and works are out, and they threw out God’s commandments and any importance to obeying them to go to heave? (I am being sarcastic here).

Any way, this Protestant Bart Eriksson seems to indicate that within 200 years of Luther, the Orthodox Lutheran Church started dismantling “faith alone”, and works and obedience, like the Catholic Church, became important in Protestant teaching of what a Christian must do to go to heaven through Jesus.

Let me know what your take is on this Protestant site.

Peace,
Steven

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I am trying to get up to date, this is responding to post 401

TertiumQuid-

More responses directed towards post 359-

It seems to me like your trying desperately to make Luther say something he hasn’t said. Faith and works are not separated in Protestant theology.

I have shown clear passages that indicate Luther was very open in separating faith and works.
Here are a few I dug up from this thread:We know that we must also teach good works, but they must be taught in their proper turn, when the discussion is concerning works and not the article of justification. post22

“By faith only in Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works.” Not that we reject good works. Far from it. But we will not allow ourselves to be removed from the anchorage of our salvation. (ibid)

**We are now concerned with justification. …We know that good works ought to be done, but we will talk about that when the proper time comes. Now we are dealing with justification, and here good works should not be so much as mentioned. **post31

**Whoever teaches that good works are indispensable unto salvation, that to gain heaven a person must suffer afflictions and follow the example of Christ and of the saints, is a minister of the Law, of sin, wrath, and of death **(ibid)

** All who say that faith alone in Christ does not justify a person, convert Christ into a minister of sin, a teacher of the Law, and a cruel tyrant who requires the impossible. **(ibid)

** We must not drag good works into the article of justification** as the monks do who maintain that not only good works, but also the punishment which evildoers suffer for their wicked deeds, deserve everlasting life. … (ibid)

**For this is Antichrist’s doctrine: Faith is no good, unless it is reinforced by works. **post32
Im sure there is lots more, this is what I saw and remembered from the earliest posts of this thread. Faith and works are clearly separate according to Luther and protestantism in general.

Romans 5:1 says we now have peace with God… Romans 4:5 says, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies…

In the middle of these two passages here Paul summs it up concering Abraham’s faith at the end of Ch4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith** when he considered his own body**, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.”
Abraham was an example who lived out his faith, and as we see in a very brief account of Abraham’s life, this was no easy task. He was not justified at a single instant in time, but started at one point and perfected it over time. It explains how faith can weaken and/or grow strong indicating life’s actions played a part in his faith. As James summs it up “faith was active with and completed by works”

” Romans 8:33 says, “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. … There can be no charge against the Christian because Jesus intercedes for him. Ephesians 2 says Christians “have been” saved not by works, and that we are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

Im not sure what your saying with Rm8:33, Catholics belived God is the one who justifies. As for the “charge against the Christian” part thats is directed at 3rd parties (ie v35), not the Christian in question. The Christian in question can separate himself through his own disobedience.
As for the Eph2 quote, the “not by works” part is directed at not by works alone (“else men should boast” and God not get the credit). As far as the “created to do good works” means you have to do them. A failure to do so will not result in heaven, eg 5:5-6.

 

[dcdurel]

Martin Luther doesn’t make sense until you realize that he gave up on trying to obey God, since he admitted he prayed very little, and he simply gave into sin.

But to relieve his guilt and his fear of hell, he came up with all those theories of salvation by faith alone, all sins are mortal, man has no free will, etc. He deliberately tried to argue that when St. Paul said we were not under the law, he was referring to the law of Christ instead of the law of Moses.

All his ideas are oriented to that one purpose of wanting to be free to sin, and at the same time not wanting to feel guilty or worry about hell. When you realize this objective, then you can see how all Luther’s ideas fit together. In other words, Luther was not trying to search the scriptures to find the truth, he was always searching the scriptures to make the truth in them conform to his ideas about being free to sin.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-
(concerning post406)

maybe I reached to far in my comments about man in his original nature in the Roman system. I do think, however, that it is clear that man by nature in the Roman system would have been at least prone to concupiscence, as “supernatural” grace was necessary to hold him up, hence the “fall from grace”. Finally, by saying that man was innocent, but immature - you are right - this is a great mystery. In short, at that point, man was not not able not to sin, but was able not to sin in our understanding. Now, post-fall, man is not able not to sin.

Adam fell by his own free will, no defects or tricks on God’s part or anything like that. Post-fall man is able to NOT sin, not by their own strength, but none the less they are able to not sin:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. -1Jn2
Someone cant say they are already justified by faith alone and then go break the commandments with no consequences.

…I believe this, as I have said ad nauseum) - that’s how we lose our faith and are damned. My point is simply that in the Roman Catholic system a person can never know with certainty…

This sounds like a desperate attempt to discredit the Catholic position. Im glad you acknowledge the possibility of “loosing our faith and being damned” as that is always possible while we are alive.

As for no assurance of a “relationship” with God, we have the Sacraments as well as a host of other things. The protestant position on the flip side only has emotions and guesses concerning their “relationship”, not backed by solid physical means.
Thats why things like Baptism are so so powerful, as Titus3 says so beautifully:3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; 4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is sure. I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men.
How amazing that Baptism is described as regeneration and renewal, a physical act which we feel on the outside we can hardly fathom how that translates into the grace conferred by such a work.

I have written about this at length here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007135&postcount=87 and forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007136&postcount=88 and I don’t think you can deny it.

(I didnt really read these links because they are 88 posts past the OP so I dont really know what Im reading. If you could PM or post the link to the full thread instead of individual posts I will try to look into it.)

As a father whose love pails to God, I still pray that I would not be like the “God the Father of Roman Catholic theology” who will not permit this absolute assurance that the relationship is currently of such a nature that were one to physically die, one would not be eternally lost. This is the main thing that keeps me Lutheran.

The CC is the only Church I know of with absolute physical assurance, not hollow “did I have enough faith?” type. Your confused to say Catholics are not assured, we are most assured of any group.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-
(concerning post 406)

As to the idea that we are sinning all the time, even mortally, I offer the following passages for consideration:
Psalm 130:3-4 … …

Not supporting always sinning, nor grave sins.

Catholic Dude, this is like the passage from Malachai. Do you see the rhetorical nature of the questions? Obviously the answer is “no one”.

You cited Ch3:2, here is ch3-4 of Malachai : 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another; the LORD heeded and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and thought on his name. 17 "They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, my special possession on the day when I act, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. 18 Then once more you shall distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.1 "For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings. You shall go forth leaping like calves from the stall. …
These passages are not about man’s fallen state in terms of hopelessness, its about turn and be saved while there is still time. Turn from your evil ways O Israel! God doesnt demand the impossible.

Also, from Romans 14: “whatever is not of faith is sin” Would you say that each and every moment you are operating according to faith/trust in Christ and His Word?

Thats not what that passage is talking about at all. not to mention you cited the last few words of the entire chapter and even left off the first half of the verse. That verse is about avoiding doing things that “makes your brother stumble”, not what you suggest.

Isaiah 64:6,7:
…
… all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags…

Isaiah is 66 chapters long, interesting how you had to get to ch64 to find something, but anyway…I should have expected the classical protestant “filthy rags” verse sooner or later.
First of all you totally avoid all context, this book is about God being really ticked off because His people have done such evil for so long. If you back up just one verse the verses you cite change what you thought they said: 5 Thou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways.
Behold, thou wast angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 7 There is no one that calls upon thy name, that bestirs himself to take hold of thee; for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast delivered us into the hand of our iniquities.
In 5a it says the people who do good God recognizes and remembers. But as the situation at hand 5b onward it talks about “sinned for a long time”, this mess was building and building for a long time. Their (collective) body had been polluted and therfore their works BECAME like filthy rags due to years of sins and abuse.
cont…