Luther v. Modern "Protestants"

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I dont know why i got your post.i will be happy to go on for days with you about this.look at gen 3;15 revalations chapter 12,wedding feast at canna.how could god (Jesus) the perfect man our savior come from a none perfect vessel.pls put down the chick comic books and love becouse do you think Jesus honors his mother in heavan.prase be Jesus Mary pray for us.PLS NO OPIONIONS TO THIS POST JUST BIBLICAL FACT FROM AMERICAN BIBLE NOT KING JAMES
 
By the way in the Book of Acts, they met at homes to eat togerther and share. To me, if one says that is a Mass, again it is spiritualizing scripture.
You’re looking at the Bible through modern eyes. They didn’t think like we do.
GJ, do you know what a covenant is? It is all over the place in the Bible. If you knew your Bible, you would see this. The early church understood they were in covenant with God. All covenants involve a meal and the Eucharist is a covenant meal with God.
 
I will say again, You people are always trying to spiritualize scriptures to justify Catholic doctrine.
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By the way in the Book of Acts, they met at homes to eat togerther and share. To me, if one says that is a Mass, again it is spiritualizing scripture.
Peace, Golfjack
GJ, I don’t think you have a very good understanding of the social interaction in the early church at all. The early church used to have a tradition called a love feast or agape feast that Protestants tried to revive in modern times but as you can see from Paul in 1 Cor 11 he did not want this to be done at the same time that others were present only for Eucharist. It was not only irreverent but it was also impolite to eat a full meal in front of others who were fasting (e.g. “had nothing” 1 Cor 11:22) in order to receive the Eucharist. As well Paul knew that some were NOT WORTHY (e.g in mortal sin) to receive the Eucharist and would not discern the difference between The Lord’s Supper from the regular Agape meal of common food (“his own supper”) and be tempted to eat it as regular food and commit sacrilege. See 1 Cor 11:19-22. Here is Paul’s admonishment:

*1 Cor 11:34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment The remaining matters I will arrange when I come. *

For the origin of the agape or “love feast”, we need to look no further than the Last Supper. “As they were eating (regular traditional passover food), Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body’” (Matt. 26:26). So the very first Eucharist was instituted in the context of a full meal! A meal continued to be the normal setting in which Christians met together for fellowship and worship. Acts 2:46 tells us: “Continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart.” There can be no doubt that the expression, “breaking bread,” includes the celebration of the Eucharist as that part of the meal called “The Lord’s Supper”. However, the phrase, “they ate their food with gladness” would also indicate that this was more than communion; it was also a meal. Catholic and Protestant scholars agree on this.

Nowhere is this practice more clearly confirmed than in the communion passage of 1 Corinthians 11:20-34. Paul begins that passage by saying, “Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes **his own supper **ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.” Now, this is obviously talking about more than just the Eucharist. Nobody gets drunk from the small amount of wine taken in communion, nor is it credible that various persons would receive communion before others because they were hungry. No, Paul is obviously describing a meal—the love feast—that preceded the actual Eucharist.

Yet, that the Eucharist was celebrated at the end of the love feast (or, as part of it) is quite clear from verses 23-30 of that passage. In those verses, Paul expressly mentions Jesus taking bread and saying, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you” (1 Cor. 11:24).

Jude also refers to those who are “spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves” (Jude 12). Here Jude uses the Greek word agape to refer to what is commonly known today as the love feast.

*Jude 12:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs [ed: deadly obstacles or blemishes] in your **love feasts **when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water [ed: empty of The Spirit], carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; *

The classic NT ref. is 1 Cor. 11:17-34, where abuses which accompanied the common meals that preceded the Eucharist are condemned.”

*1 Cor 11:17-34 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or **do you despise the church of God **and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you. *

Can you see how Paul was angry that people were turning “The Church” into a bring your own lunch bucket cafeteria and not reverencing The Lord’s meal? He told them to stay at home and eat and stop the food orgies in The Church.

This both proves the sanctity of The Church and the sanctify and reverence for The Eucharist. Here it is right in plain scripture text - The HUGE distinction between common food and The Lord’s Food. There is NO excuse for a Protestant to not believe that the early church did not reverence the Eucharist as real presence since Paul condemned those who did not make the distinction. Thus in a few short verses the bible completely ratifies the physical church as well as the the early version of the Catholic Mass and consecration of the Eucharist.

How ironic that you would complain about the Church of spiritualizing the bible when the Bible IS NOTHING BUT GOD BREATHED HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED SCRIPTURE! Hello - that is what it is - it is not a secularized cafeteria menu to pick and choose the fruits and morsels that suit your tastes. :rolleyes:

BTW: The apostolic pattern was eventually altered. Some churches began changing this after the apostles died. During the second and third centuries, the agape was eventually separated from the Eucharist. Churches began celebrating the Eucharist in the morning and hosting the love feast in the evening. Eventually it was stopped.

James
 
My point stands. Luther didn’t believe in transubstantiation.
But he did believe in the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the consecrated elements. Wasn’t the Church’s Eucharistic Theology hotly debated during the renaissance of the 12th century, and not really “nailed down” definitively until the Council of Trent?

As an aside, I (and my Church) believe in and teach Transubstantiation as presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and reject all other eucharistic theologies.

Blessings,
Irl
 
Ahh yes i do know what a covenant is.do you.one of the first covenants was gen; chapter 3:15 .john chapter 6 and 7 is not a covenant.it is Jesus telling us his body and blood are bread and wine many of the people could not understand this (like your self )and they left.Jesus than asked the 12 if they wanted to leave too.Than at the last super Jesus reafirms this. Praise be Jesus and take another closer look at the bible your looking at it with 20th century free masons perspective.PLS DONT PREACH YOUR OPIONIONS AND MAKE MONEY FROM THEM.IF YOU WANT TO LEARN WERE JESUS FIRST MAKES HIS COVENANT ABOUT THE BREAD IN THE OLD TEST.LET ME KNOW AND WERE PAUL IN ROMANS BACKS IT ALL UP.THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAD YOU TO THE TRUTH GOD BLESS
 
But he did believe in the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the consecrated elements. Wasn’t the Church’s Eucharistic Theology hotly debated during the renaissance of the 12th century, and not really “nailed down” definitively until the Council of Trent?
Yes. But the Catholic Church settled that finally.
 
Yes. But the Catholic Church settled that finally.
Yes. It was not settled in Luther’s lifetime but it was nailed down definitively once and for all by the Catholic Church shortly after his death at the Council of Trent, and that was (and is) that. Roma loquit, causa finis!! (Rome has spoken. Case closed!)

Blessings,
Irl
 
But to be honest that just reveals how little they understand about Luther, Christianity, and history.

There are two main pillars of Protestantism that almost all believe: sola fide and sola scriptura (the latter is an absolute given, illogical as it is).

Martin Luther was the first person in history to teach either of these doctrines. There is not any record in the first 15 centuries of Christianity before him of either doctrine.

Thus, on this point alone, he is certainly the founder of Protestantism.
The Moravian Church was established by the followers of Jan Hus over one hundred years before Martin Luther rebelled against Rome. They are often called “The Brethren.”

Waldensianism was founded around the year 1200 after Peter Waldo renounced all of his worldly possessions and began to preach. They were labeled heretics by Rome.

Two examples of pre-Luther “protestants.” They literally protested the church.

My point still stands. There is no single leader behind Protestantism. There were many. Luther, Wycliffe, Waldo, Hus, Calvin, Arminius, Chelčický…the list goes on.

You seem to imply that Protestantism is monolithic and had a single leader and single theology. No, Protestantism was a group of educated theologians all rebelling and teaching their own version of Christianity.

Luther was just the most famous for it. He wasn’t the first Protestant. He wasn’t the last Protestant. He wasn’t the pope of Protestantism. He was just another theologian who decided to split with Rome and follow his own theology.
 
The Catholic Church has always believed that Christ is wholly present in either form of the Eucharist, bread or wine. There is an early second century reference to it by St Ignatius, Bishop of Antioche who calls the Eucharist essential and offers that it is truly the body and blood of Christ. There are countless references in Catholic writings from that time onward.

The Council of Trent merely affirmed the term “Transubstantiation” to describe the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. However, it had always been a Church teaching and Sacrament for the 12 centuries prior.
 
James, I think you are saying your faith is based on the Catholic church. I said my faith is based on the Word of God. There are many scriptures that talk about faith. Just look in your concordance. None of these scriptures talk about believing in Catholic faith. You are so wrong my friend with your intellectual beliefs. 👍
Code:
      Peace,   Golfjack
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church – Ignatius of Antioch (105AD)

So I guess the early church fathers were wrong in their belief in it too?
 
The Moravian Church was established by the followers of Jan Hus over one hundred years before Martin Luther rebelled against Rome. They are often called “The Brethren.”

Waldensianism was founded around the year 1200 after Peter Waldo renounced all of his worldly possessions and began to preach. They were labeled heretics by Rome.

Two examples of pre-Luther “protestants.” They literally protested the church.

My point still stands. There is no single leader behind Protestantism. There were many. Luther, Wycliffe, Waldo, Hus, Calvin, Arminius, Chelčický…the list goes on.

You seem to imply that Protestantism is monolithic and had a single leader and single theology. No, Protestantism was a group of educated theologians all rebelling and teaching their own version of Christianity.

Luther was just the most famous for it. He wasn’t the first Protestant. He wasn’t the last Protestant. He wasn’t the pope of Protestantism. He was just another theologian who decided to split with Rome and follow his own theology.
I agree with you as Luther can only be consider the Father of those who believe in Sola Scriptura (sp?). There are many other beliefs in the Protestant area that do not fall under this umbrella.
 
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