Luther "would not have elevated them to dogma"--how could a priest elevate anything to a dogma?

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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Or perhaps they don’t need to make new dogmas because Christ’s revealed Word and all the dogmas set up in council are sufficient. Innovating dogmas every ten years isn’t necessarily a good thing 😉
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I think this is the crux, in some ways, and why the Orthodox do not stop at calling Lutherans innovative, but Rome as well.

Jon
 
PRmerger said:
Again, this is fair. Most Lutherans would not give Fr. Luther this authority do declare something a dogma.

Which is why I found the comment curious. And I questioned it in the original thread.

And, I still don’t know what Mikeoffaith’s point was?
*
“Luther even though a believer in these doctrines would not have elevated them to dogma.” *
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My point was simple PR. All of the posts, in that thread were asserting that because Martin Luther believed in the IC, Assumption and ever virgin, that somehow this must be proof or requirement for Lutherans to believe it as such. The fact that Martin Luther believed something does not necessary make it a requirement of belief on all Lutherans.
 
Yes indeed. Talk to the Orthodox and they’ll tell you the filioque was an innovation…then indugences…the treasury of merit…infallibility…purgatory…and on and on…

The usual Orthodox insult I read is that Protestants and Catholics are twins, two sides of the same innovative coin. I don’t necessarily buy that but I find it interesting how so many Catholics try to make nice with the Orthodox and want their approval and kinship so much and yet they’ll insult Protestants with whom, in some ways, they share more in common than the Orthodox. The view of the atonement, original sin, the filioque, etc. are things Lutherans and Catholics have in common and don’t share with the Orthodox. I think apostolic succession, the Eucharist, and the priesthood along with the seven sacraments cause some Catholics to think East and West are mirror images without the pope but there is much divergence IMO or else the breach would’ve been repaired long, long ago.

BTW, I just got back from my son’s Christmas show. WOW, those Lutherans know how to put on a Christmas production! It was adorable, very touching as well. Kudos to the LCMS Christmas folks! 👍🙂 I’m really happy my son attends that school.
JonNC said:
I think this is the crux, in some ways, and why the Orthodox do not stop at calling Lutherans innovative, but Rome as well.

Jon
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PRmerger said:
Interested in your thoughts on how Luther could have elevated anything to a dogma. He was a priest, not a bishop, yes?

So, Mikeoffaith, what say you?
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Luther had no authority because only bishops have authority.
 
Sadly, Mike, you’re not the first to make that argument, which is completely VALID. Martin Luther is not the whole of Lutheranism. But many Catholics who don’t know much about Lutheranism assume as much. They ignore Melanchthon, Chemnitz, Georg Calixtus, Leonhard Hutter, Johann Gerhard, Nicolaus Hunnius, and thirty other big names in Lutheran history that shaped the Lutheran faith into what it is. Martin Luther is the high-profile spark of the Reformation and a soft, huge target. The Book of Concord, put together in 1580, was assembled long after Luther’s death. Chemnitz was the major contributor to that, which set more of the standard for orthodox Lutheranism than Luther had contributed previously. Melanchthon’s role in Lutheranism was huge and he did a lot of the heavy lifting. He also frequently was divergent in thinking from Martin Luther himself. So Lutheranism was not an ideaological monolith to be fair. It had plenty of rangling, debate, prayer, and study amidst a wife array of personalities. Luther, like I said, is the soft target of anti-Protestant folks because he was the spark, the beginning of the movement.

As you correctly point out, just because Luther believed something of individual piety or theology, if it isn’t a part of the Large or Small Catechism, Augsburg Confession, Book of Concord, and other mainstream Lutheran orthodox focal points, it isn’t then automatically gospel. I hear the argument all the time, “Luther was against birth control! For God’s sakes! Luther was opposed to it so we all must be!” They hate Luther until he agrees with 'em! 😛
Mikeoffaith said:
My point was simple PR. All of the posts, in that thread were asserting that because Martin Luther believed in the IC, Assumption and ever virgin, that somehow this must be proof or requirement for Lutherans to believe it as such. The fact that Martin Luther believed something does not necessary make it a requirement of belief on all Lutherans.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Yes indeed. Talk to the Orthodox and they’ll tell you the filioque was an innovation…then indugences…the treasury of merit…infallibility…purgatory…and on and on…
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And why, Fitzattitude, should we care what the Orthodox say? Or Protestants, for that matter? Neither seems to understand the development of doctrine, although they certainly “make it up” as they go along. Where did the idea of disunity come from? Or the denial of the most basic Christian teachings? It didn’t come from the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles.
The usual Orthodox insult I read is that Protestants and Catholics are twins, two sides of the same innovative coin. I don’t necessarily buy that but I find it interesting how so many Catholics try to make nice with the Orthodox and want their approval and kinship so much and yet they’ll insult Protestants with whom, in some ways, they share more in common than the Orthodox. The view of the atonement, original sin, the filioque, etc. are things Lutherans and Catholics have in common and don’t share with the Orthodox. I think apostolic succession, the Eucharist, and the priesthood along with the seven sacraments cause some Catholics to think East and West are mirror images without the pope but there is much divergence IMO or else the breach would’ve been repaired long, long ago.
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Well, here’s a Catholic that isn’t enamored of all things Orthodox. Nor do I find comfort in the similarities between Orthodox and/or Protestant beliefs. The splitting up of Christianity is a scandal in the eyes of God and before the world. No one should find that encouraging.
BTW, I just got back from my son’s Christmas show. WOW, those Lutherans know how to put on a Christmas production! It was adorable, very touching as well. Kudos to the LCMS Christmas folks! 👍🙂 I’m really happy my son attends that school.
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Such things are okay. I’ve seen many an emotionally moving kids’ Christmas program in Catholic parishes, too, and they have their place. The celebration of the Mass, of course, offers more, even if it doesn’t move us or inspire us because it offers the living Christ in the Eucharist. After all, that’s what Christ’s Mass is really all about. 😉
 
And didn’t say you should care, Della. 😉
Della said:
And why, Fitzattitude, should we care what the Orthodox say? Or Protestants, for that matter? Neither seems to understand the development of doctrine, although they certainly “make it up” as they go along. Where did the idea of disunity come from? Or the denial of the most basic Christian teachings? It didn’t come from the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles.

Good for you. 🙂
Well, here’s a Catholic that isn’t enamored of all things Orthodox. Nor do I find comfort in the similarities between Orthodox and/or Protestant beliefs. The splitting up of Christianity is a scandal in the eyes of God and before the world. No one should find that encouraging.

Yes. And a Christmas play has nothing to do with Mass whatsoever so I fail to see your point here. :confused: I was complimenting the Lutherans. Heavy forbid we charitably compliment our Lutheran brothers! 😛 I fail to see why you’re comparing a play to the Eucharist. Ultimate in apples and oranges arguments…:rolleyes:
Such things are okay. I’ve seen many an emotionally moving kids’ Christmas program in Catholic parishes, too, and they have their place. The celebration of the Mass, of course, offers more, even if it doesn’t move us or inspire us because it offers the living Christ in the Eucharist. After all, that’s what Christ’s Mass is really all about. 😉
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Open a history book and tell me Luther didn’t have any authority over the early Lutheran Church…Lutherans don’t believe episcopal polity is essential for authority unless we’re talking about some areas where episcopal succession was considered important to maintain like in some Scandinavian lands. Luther had a great deal of authority and relevence. Ask the German princes that followed him!🙂
Nicea325 said:
Luther had no authority because only bishops have authority.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
And didn’t say you should care, Della. 😉
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Good, because I don’t. 😛
Yes. And a Christmas play has nothing to do with Mass whatsoever so I fail to see your point here. I was complimenting the Lutherans. Heavy forbid we charitably compliment our Lutheran brothers! I fail to see why you’re comparing a play to the Eucharist. Ultimate in apples and oranges arguments…
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I said nothing against Christmas plays, Lutheran or Catholic or anyone else’s.🤷 And why shouldn’t Catholics be glad that we started the whole Christmas tradition by celebrating Christ’s Mass. Without that no one would be celebrating with plays or anything else. I think it’s good for everyone to be reminded of where Christmas came from and what it truly is meant to celebrate.
 
**Is it your intention to have a Who’s on First Abbott and Costello back and forth here? **:p:eek: eesh…
Della said:
Good, because I don’t. 😛

You replied directly to my statement about a Christmas play on my post and started talking about Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharistic banquet of the Mass. I find it weird and nonsensical to bring it up when I was talking about a Christmas play but hey, Della, whatever floats ye ole boat. And by the way, Christ, Mary, Joseph, and Almighty God started Christmas. Just a reminder ;)🙂 And I think most of us in here are learned enough to know that Christmas is about Christ’s birth but if you feel the need to remind us and ejumucate us, go for it 😛
I said nothing against Christmas plays, Lutheran or Catholic or anyone else’s.🤷 And why shouldn’t Catholics be glad that we started the whole Christmas tradition by celebrating Christ’s Mass. Without that no one would be celebrating with plays or anything else. I think it’s good for everyone to be reminded of where Christmas came from and what it truly is meant to celebrate.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
**Is it your intention to have a Who’s on First Abbott and Costello back and forth here? **:p:eek: eesh…
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If you want to deny history, that’s up to you. There was NO celebration of the birth of Christ until the CHURCH instituted a MASS to denote it. EASTER was the BIG celebration and still is. Christmas accrued traditions down through the centuries and apart from Luther the Reformers would have thrown it out completely. A little credit where credit is due on a CATHOLIC website there, friend. The MASS is what it is all about. Apart from that NO ONE would be celebrating Jesus’ birth. NO ONE. PERIOD. God didn’t institute Christ’s Mass. The CHURCH did that. That’s the facts whether you or anyone else likes it or not. Now, take a deep breath, eat some cookies, drink some milk, and chill, for crying out loud.
 
Mikeoffaith said:
My point was simple PR. All of the posts, in that thread were asserting that because Martin Luther believed in the IC, Assumption and ever virgin, that somehow this must be proof or requirement for Lutherans to believe it as such. The fact that Martin Luther believed something does not necessary make it a requirement of belief on all Lutherans.
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Well, then…that’s it? The above response is why I needed to start another thread?

Sheesh!

5 posts and another thread started for this response?

:ehh:
 
This post does not deserve a reply. A total head-scratcher. And the idea that the Church instituted Christ’s Mass? Wow. That’s totally bizarre. The Catholic Church is quite clear that JESUS CHRIST (like my use of caps? I’m trying to catch up with yours! :p) instituted the Mass. Yes, Jesus instituted the Mass, not the Church. The priesthood comes from Christ, not the reverse. :rolleyes:
But thanks for the advice about cookies and milk. You must be in a Santa mood. The thick and nasty sarcasm aside, it’s great advice. I think I’ll go out and buy some Toll House Morsels right away…so I can “chill” :rolleyes:
Della said:
If you want to deny history, that’s up to you. There was NO celebration of the birth of Christ until the CHURCH instituted a MASS to denote it. EASTER was the BIG celebration and still is. Christmas accrued traditions down through the centuries and apart from Luther the Reformers would have thrown it out completely. A little credit where credit is due on a CATHOLIC website there, friend. The MASS is what it is all about. Apart from that NO ONE would be celebrating Jesus’ birth. NO ONE. PERIOD. God didn’t institute Christ’s Mass. The CHURCH did that. That’s the facts whether you or anyone else likes it or not. Now, take a deep breath, eat some cookies, drink some milk, and chill, for crying out loud.
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Luther would never have elevated CATS to the level of dogma. 😃
 
Della said:
I said nothing against Christmas plays, Lutheran or Catholic or anyone else’s.🤷 And why shouldn’t Catholics be glad that we started the whole Christmas tradition by celebrating Christ’s Mass. Without that no one would be celebrating with plays or anything else. I think it’s good for everyone to be reminded of where Christmas came from and what it truly is meant to celebrate.
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“guffaw”:rolleyes:
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
But thanks for the advice about cookies and milk. You must be in a Santa mood. The thick and nasty sarcasm aside, it’s great advice. I think I’ll go out and buy some Toll House Morsels right away…so I can “chill” :rolleyes:
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You know, if you’re a fan of Toll House cookies, the Orthodox may get you yet…
 
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