Luther...

[Lazerlike42]

The number is completely legitimate. I am not sure what the census was that provided the 33,000 or the 36,000, but I know they are not just made up. Just to prove my point, here are two sources which I do know of:

The Dictionary of Christianity in America, a Protestant source, says that there were over 20,800 Christian denominations worldwide in 1980.

The United Nations World Census of Religious Activities, published in 1989, places the number at 23,000.

I simply haven’t written anything else lately so I’ve had no need to research any newer information.

Of course, this is what you have to rememeber. Of those 33,000, a few thousand are probably just cults that shouldn’t count. Another few thousand are probably the same denomination but just a different segment of it (like the ELCA Lutherans and the Missouri Synod Lutherans and the Wisconsion Synod Lutherans). Even given these two likelihoods, the fact that the number we start out with, 33,000, is so huge means that there are still thousands and thousands of distinct individual denominations.

Another problem is that even having 2 different denominations means that the whole system is wrong. Take 4 general major denominations: Assembly of God, Episcopalians, Southern Baptists, and Lutherans. Each of these denominations has millions of members. Most of them probably don’t even go to church. A few million probably go to church every Sunday, but that’s about it. Maybe a million each really go to church every week and are really active in the church. Let’s say that each of the denominations has 100,000 people that are truly strong in their faith, and go to church consistently, and really live out the faith in life, and are completely devoted to God. These 100,000 each are all truly seeking God with all their hearts. Protestants say that if you are truly seeking God the Holy Spirit will lead you to the correct understanding of truth. However, we have 4 different groups of 100,000 people, all seeking God probably better than most people can imagine, who are coming to what are in many key areas very different interpretations. This is all the proof I will ever need to realize that the Holy Spirit doesn’t go around leading every true believer to the truth.

Let me make one exception. Any true believer that is really seeking and really has an open mind will be led by the Holy Spirit to the One True Church. Most don’t have an open mind, though, and the Holy Spirit isn’t gonna force 'em!

 

[savone]

“Why do Catholics have such a big dislike for Martin Luther?”

Generally speaking, Luther is simply a “flash-point” around which to blame, finger-point, and shift accountability and responsibility. For example, the way some persons blame the pope for what they don’t like about the Roman Catholic Church, or a pastor for what’s happening in a congregation. Got to take their frustration and anger out on someone.

The question more, for me, is what was the state of the Church that the events of the Reformation could unfold as they did, so that the impact continues even today. You can’t divide that which is strong, only that which is weak.

 

[Lazerlike42]

“Why do Catholics have such a big dislike for Martin Luther?”

Generally speaking, Luther is simply a “flash-point” around which to blame, finger-point, and shift accountability and responsibility. For example, the way some persons blame the pope for what they don’t like about the Roman Catholic Church, or a pastor for what’s happening in a congregation. Got to take their frustration and anger out on someone.

The question more, for me, is what was the state of the Church that the events of the Reformation could unfold as they did, so that the impact continues even today. You can’t divide that which is strong, only that which is weak.

I would first note that Protestantism must be overwhelmingly weak to be divided in the way that it is today. With thousands of different denominations and even the largest most reputable denominations all at odds with one another, how can anyone try to argue that Protestantism is not weak and divided? Indeed, it was divided when it first developed in the 1500s. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli were at great odds with one another. They couldn’t stand each other, nor could their respective followers.

The Church was not divided, for one thing. Some folks split off from it, but that is not a division. That’s like saying that Britain was divided when the revolutionaries decided to form their own country. It wasn’t divided; a few folks split off from it.

In fact, Britain was strong at the time of the Revolution. This is proof that you can “divide” as you put it that which is strong. You may argue that that was different because there was an ocean in the middle and it created unusual circumstances. Well, the Church of the 1500s was also in some very unsual circumstances. The Pope was spending all his time trying to fend off a Muslim invasion from the East, for one. People seem to forget this. They also forget that the Reformation was overwhelmingly political and not religious. With the Pope’s attention diverted elsewhere, various secular kings realized that they could use Luther as an oppurtunity to gain some power. They agreed to scratch Luther’s back if he’d scratch theirs’. In short, if not for the invasion in the East and the help that Luther got from various kings, his protest would have ended in about a week. These are certainly unusual circumstances.

It’s also no surprise that we had a relatively Godly world for 1500 years, but the instant Protestantism came about everything took a dive and started downhill until to the absolutely disgusting and sickening point that we’re at today. Protestants should look at the world today, at the overwhelmingly secular nature, at the governments and societies whom put religion last on their list or even persecute them and realize that we have a world like this today because Luther sold out God to the state.

 

[gr8full]

Lazerlike42:

Let me make one exception. Any true believer that is really seeking and really has an open mind will be led by the Holy Spirit to the One True Church. Most don’t have an open mind, though, and the Holy Spirit isn’t gonna force 'em!

I am inclined to somewhat agree with you, however…the “open mind” you speak of is what gets a lot of people into trouble. They are “open” to any cult that may come along. They have to be open to the Holy Spirit however to be lead to the Catholic Church. But, please don’t judge harshly those of us who are “open” to the Catholic Church but haven’t followed through. There are various reasons for this. Much of it has to do with a lack of knowledge. And, though there are many Catholic Churches that are open and welcoming to those seeking out the truth, many do not seem like a place you’d want to stop into for a visit. Perhaps for many it’s a fear of the unknown. And, though I have Catholic friends who are very sincere with their faith, most of the individuals and families I have come across who call themselves Catholic are so in name only. It’s not a serious committment, but rather a 2x a year thing on Easter and Christmas. Now, I’m *not *saying it’s the church’s fault. There are MANY MANY protestants just like this, but for some reason, it’s easier for everyone it seems, to point out the one’s who consider themselves Catholic.
I feel like there are likely many out there like my family. My husband and I are very serious and are reading and praying and trying to learn all we can about the Church. But…we have kids, and though they do consider Catholics “real” Christians, (unlike many protestants who, sadly, do not), we are concerned for them. They are involved in the church we attend. They are sincere in their faith. They have friends at our church and as you know, to teenagers, friends mean a great deal and it would be devastating for them to leave them. Especially since they are homeschooled. These kids are all they have, they don’t have a group at school they can turn to. I would say for us, it’s a big reason we haven’t taken the step to attend RCIA classes. I’ve investigated and in my area, there don’t seem to be many things happening at the local Catholic church for kids and teens.

Sorry to ramble, I just wanted to give you another point of view.

 

[Lazerlike42]

gr8full:

I am inclined to somewhat agree with you, however…the “open mind” you speak of is what gets a lot of people into trouble. They are “open” to any cult that may come along. They have to be open to the Holy Spirit however to be lead to the Catholic Church. But, please don’t judge harshly those of us who are “open” to the Catholic Church but haven’t followed through. There are various reasons for this. Much of it has to do with a lack of knowledge. And, though there are many Catholic Churches that are open and welcoming to those seeking out the truth, many do not seem like a place you’d want to stop into for a visit. Perhaps for many it’s a fear of the unknown. And, though I have Catholic friends who are very sincere with their faith, most of the individuals and families I have come across who call themselves Catholic are so in name only. It’s not a serious committment, but rather a 2x a year thing on Easter and Christmas. Now, I’m *not *saying it’s the church’s fault. There are MANY MANY protestants just like this, but for some reason, it’s easier for everyone it seems, to point out the one’s who consider themselves Catholic.
I feel like there are likely many out there like my family. My husband and I are very serious and are reading and praying and trying to learn all we can about the Church. But…we have kids, and though they do consider Catholics “real” Christians, (unlike many protestants who, sadly, do not), we are concerned for them. They are involved in the church we attend. They are sincere in their faith. They have friends at our church and as you know, to teenagers, friends mean a great deal and it would be devastating for them to leave them. Especially since they are homeschooled. These kids are all they have, they don’t have a group at school they can turn to. I would say for us, it’s a big reason we haven’t taken the step to attend RCIA classes. I’ve investigated and in my area, there don’t seem to be many things happening at the local Catholic church for kids and teens.

Sorry to ramble, I just wanted to give you another point of view.

I know what you’re talking about because I came from the very same beliefs and attitudes you had. I didn’t want to set foot in a Catholic church because it was incredibly uncomfortable. I used to criticize my Catholic friends all the time for being Catholic in name but not in practice. I know what you’re talking about.

As far as your kids, don’t judge me too harshly by my words but while they’re an understandable reason for not taking the steps they aren’t really a “good” reason. We know that Jesus told us we have to put Him before our families and everythin else in our lives. Also, if the Church is the True Church Christ established, you owe it to your kids to bring them there. They need and deserve to have the fullness of Christ. If you don’t think that’s what the Church is or are still searching, that’s fine. You can only believe what God leads you to and what your hearts and minds show you and nobody is going to criticize you for that. If on the other hand you do and would have jumped in to RCIA if not for the kids, I think you need to take a look at things and figure out just how important Christ is to you and your family. He must come first and above all. Whatever it is you find He wants of you, that is what you must follow, putting all worldly things, friends included, aside (if they are an obstacle. I doubt they’d need to be given up. Remember, though, the story of the rich man. The reason his money was a sin to him was because he put it over Christ. In other words, if he already had the mindset that when Christ came to Him and said he needed to give up his money he would have said, “sure,” then Christ wouldn’t have wanted him to give it up. He only wanted the man to give it up because in his mind he couldn’t. The money was an obstacle to Christ that would keep him from the Lord. If your kids would give up their friends for Christ, He won’t ask them to. If they wouldn’t, then they are an obstacle and He would ask them to. I hope that makes sense.)

 

[savone]

Lazerlike42,

I have heard it said, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

Since your view is “that we have a world like this today because Luther sold out God to the state”; I’ll leave you with your opinion still and not even attempt to otherwise convince you against your will.

 

[squeekster]

Well, I find the number 30,000+ HIGHLY suspect. I don’t know how they arrived at the numbers and I really don’t even care. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they did it the same way they counted losses in the Vietnam war. Ever wonder why it was that US losses were put in the hundreds (or less) each day but enemy losses were always put in the upper thousands? It’s because all the lieutenants wanted to make a name for themselves, so they counted dead chickens, dogs, cats and for good measure, even some Vietnamese in their body count.

But even IF the number is actually 30,000+ denominations, the REAL question that should be asked is WHY do Catholics even care HOW MANY there are? Are these numbers, however many there are, some kind of threat to Catholicism like Luther was? And yes, it needs to be admitted that Luther WAS a threat to the Catholic church. Because he had ideas outside of Catholicism did NOT necessarily make him wrong. The same goes for the various denominations, however many there are. While there are a number of denominations out there that are way out in left field, they are NOT all wrong, just because they aren’t part of the RCC. I’m sorry, but to think they are is just, in a word, stupid.

But the fact remains that the only ones that make much of a deal about Luther and his ideas and/or the number of denominations is Catholics. If the RCC is the only church that is right and Luther and all these “33,000 denominations” are all wrong, then you’d think that people would be running as fast as their little feet can carry them straight to the door of their local Catholic church. But that isn’t happening, is it? I’ve read that in some countries, people are leaving the RCC in record numbers. Why is that?

 

[But_for_Grace]

perhaps I was overenthusiatic in my last post on this thread, if anyone was offended I am sorry, this is one time that I should have bit my tounge.

 

[Lazerlike42]

savone:

Lazerlike42,

I have heard it said, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

Since your view is “that we have a world like this today because Luther sold out God to the state”; I’ll leave you with your opinion still and not even attempt to otherwise convince you against your will.

It’s a simple matter of history. A high school student could tell you.

 

[Lazerlike42]

squeekster:

Well, I find the number 30,000+ HIGHLY suspect. I don’t know how they arrived at the numbers and I really don’t even care. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they did it the same way they counted losses in the Vietnam war. Ever wonder why it was that US losses were put in the hundreds (or less) each day but enemy losses were always put in the upper thousands? It’s because all the lieutenants wanted to make a name for themselves, so they counted dead chickens, dogs, cats and for good measure, even some Vietnamese in their body count.

But even IF the number is actually 30,000+ denominations, the REAL question that should be asked is WHY do Catholics even care HOW MANY there are? Are these numbers, however many there are, some kind of threat to Catholicism like Luther was? And yes, it needs to be admitted that Luther WAS a threat to the Catholic church. Because he had ideas outside of Catholicism did NOT necessarily make him wrong. The same goes for the various denominations, however many there are. While there are a number of denominations out there that are way out in left field, they are NOT all wrong, just because they aren’t part of the RCC. I’m sorry, but to think they are is just, in a word, stupid.

But the fact remains that the only ones that make much of a deal about Luther and his ideas and/or the number of denominations is Catholics. If the RCC is the only church that is right and Luther and all these “33,000 denominations” are all wrong, then you’d think that people would be running as fast as their little feet can carry them straight to the door of their local Catholic church. But that isn’t happening, is it? I’ve read that in some countries, people are leaving the RCC in record numbers. Why is that?

The 33,000 denominations aren’t seen as a threat to the Church. The only reason Catholics care about it is to point out that the Holy Spirit couldn’t possibly have led people to thousands of different interpretations. The only reason we care is to point out that when you leave the Bible to be interpreted by anyone, it leads to thousands of interpretations.

You said they can’t all be wrong. The fact is, only one Christian denomination (or Catholicism) can be right. God is truth. There is only one way. There is only one truth. God is God, and nobody and nothing can has or will change that. There is only one church that does it the right way. To say that there can be more than one right way is to blaspheme against God.

The reason people are leaving the Church is frankly because people don’t care enough about God to say ‘ok, I won’t use condoms’ or ‘ok I won’t get an abortion’ or ‘ok I will go to church every week no matter what.’ They want God to be who THEY want Him to be and not who He is.

The reason people aren’t running as fast as they can is that there are of course many Christians who are truly seeking and truly believe they know the right path, or that the Church is wrong. I was one of them. They stay where they are because they really don’t hear much about the Church. Catholic apologetics is such a new field. People have spent 400 years sayingwhy the Church is “wrong.” People have only spent about 20 saying why it’s right. The average Protestant going to Church goes there because he was brought up there and just accepts by faith that what he does is right. He probably never hears a Catholic try to say he should become a Catholic. That doesn’t mean if a person heard a Catholic say they should come join that he is necessarily going to do it, but the fact is many do. I spent months telling my Catholic friends why there were “wrong.” They never came to tell me why they were right. That’s just how the world works. People can’t change their minds if nobody gives them anything new to think about.

It’s also worth noting that many denominations spend almost as much time attacking Catholicism as they do preaching the Word on Sunday, so many people grow up with the mindset drilled into their minds that Catholicism is wrong. If I told a person enough times growing up that the sky was red, they’d start to believe it eventually.

 

[Lazerlike42]

But for Grace:

perhaps I was overenthusiatic in my last post on this thread, if anyone was offended I am sorry, this is one time that I should have bit my tounge.

No you shouldn’t have. Everyone ought to say what they believe. How can we understand ourselves or one another if we don’t express what we feel and what we are?

 

[Atreyu]

squeekster:

But even IF the number is actually 30,000+ denominations, the REAL question that should be asked is WHY do Catholics even care HOW MANY there are? Are these numbers, however many there are, some kind of threat to Catholicism like Luther was? And yes, it needs to be admitted that Luther WAS a threat to the Catholic church. Because he had ideas outside of Catholicism did NOT necessarily make him wrong. The same goes for the various denominations, however many there are. While there are a number of denominations out there that are way out in left field, they are NOT all wrong, just because they aren’t part of the RCC. I’m sorry, but to think they are is just, in a word, stupid.

I think it may already have been said that the Church has been in need of reform before, and Luther was one of the proponents of the reform that was needed in the 16th century. It is irrelevant whether or not this reform would have happened without him. But Luther’s mistake was to distance himself from the Church. Catholics see division as evil, and so Luther’s choice (if that is what he did) to go out and start a new church is definitely a threat to the Catholic Church. What he should have done was seek reform for the Catholic Church, while remaining in her. I’ve heard that Luther said he would have renounced all of his other claims, if only Catholics would admit that you are saved by faith alone. The Catholic Church could not do this, and so he schismed (did I just make up a word…?) Now a few centuries later, I have heard (sorry for not backing up this hearsay, but hopefully someone can clarify) that the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church had a conference. This was attended by then Cardinal Ratzinger. At this conference, the two forms of justification were discussed and the conclusion was that they are the same; different in words only. If I have got all of this stuff right, then how sad is it that Luther made a schism because of mere words? Or perhaps his successors have realised his error, or changed their thinking.

If the RCC is the only church that is right and Luther and all these “33,000 denominations” are all wrong, then you’d think that people would be running as fast as their little feet can carry them straight to the door of their local Catholic church. But that isn’t happening, is it? I’ve read that in some countries, people are leaving the RCC in record numbers. Why is that?

Like I said, the Catholic Church sees divisiveness as evil. This is why we talk about how the Protestant Churches have thousands of denominations, as it is the fruit of the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura. Now as to why people are leaving the RCC, well this is only subjective, but the typical Catholic converting to Protestantism arises because of ignorance of the Catholic teaching, combined with effective evangelising of anti-Catholics who know how to make the Church sound bad. Squeekster, a lot of the bad stuff you may hear about the Catholic Church is most likely wrong; if you gain nothing else here (not that I’m suggesting you leave soon) then I would still be happy if you were to leave having gained the intention of taking every comment on the Catholic Church with a grain of salt. There are so many lies put out there and perpetuated, ranging from the subtle to the incredible. But people believe them; it is crazy.

 

[Lazerlike42]

You’re talking about the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification

Read it here: cin.org/users/james/files/jddj.htm

Read about the key differences here: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

 

[Atreyu]

Thanks Lazer! I knew someone would know it

 

[squeekster]

Atreyu:

…I would still be happy if you were to leave having gained the intention of taking every comment on the Catholic Church with a grain of salt. There are so many lies put out there and perpetuated, ranging from the subtle to the incredible. But people believe them; it is crazy.

Maybe a little background on me would be helpful. Maybe not. Heck, it may even hasten my involuntary departure. I don’t know.

I don’t post that much on some boards but I have no intention of leaving this one voluntarily. I am one of those EVIL sola scripturists. Because of that, I simply compare teachings of the Catholic church to Scripture. And for the record, I do not consider the Apocrypha (or whatever you guys call it) to be God Breathed Scripture. Consequently, since you made the comment that “There are so many lies put out there and perpetuated, ranging from the subtle to the incredible”, I consider a number of the things that the Catholic church teaches to be included in that statement. Why? Because some of them simply can NOT be found anywhere in Scripture. Some can only be found if one takes a verse totally out of the context that it was written in and twists it horribly. And some can only be found within what you guys call “tradition”. The funny thing about “tradition” is that no one really seems to know just what it entails, other than it was “passed down”. For instance, I’ve had Catholics tell me that Mary being born sinless is from tradition, supposedly meaning that it was passed down from the Apostles. Yet when asked which of the original Apostles made the claim, I get the message board equivalent of a blank stare. Now don’t get me wrong, in certain instances, there isn’t anything really wrong with a few traditions. But if one is going to claim that these alleged traditions are from God, it just seems to me that there ought to be concrete proof of those assertions. Not just “it’s that way because the church says so”.

 

[twiztedseraph]

squeekster:

This was asked on another forum by someone else, but I thought that it was a fairly interesting question, so I’ll ask it here. If this isn’t the right forum, please move it.

Why do Catholics have such a big dislike for Martin Luther? Apparently his teachings are a real threat, at least to some peoples’ faith, as every board that I have gone to, there have been Catholics running Luther over the coals. There must have been some truth to what he said, because if he wasn’t some kind of a threat, people would just totally ignore him and what he said and taught would have been forgotten long ago.

Luther’s teachings are funny. I mean basically he ignored 1500 years worth of precedent on the subject! I think some of us tend to dislike him considering the fact that he was the father of schism. Despite his disapproval for schism, it was his actions that led to it.

 

[scylla]

I think you have gotten a bit of a perception that I need to address here, in that we don’t think that people outside the Catholic Church are wrong. The majority think of them as separated brothers in Christ. We really want to be united with them.
What Catholics see as wrong is division. That is wrong. I fully believe in the Bible and see absolutely no contradiction to the Bible and the Catholic Church. That is another thread, but it is just a matter of interpretation and if the church is based off the Bible or if the Bible is through the Church.

The problem is the Luther’s proposition of Sola Scriptura is a threat to the truth. This is a fact about division. The truth is one. Not opinions.

So I don’t believe Evangelicals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentacostals etc are wrong. They all have some truth in their beliefs. We recognize the truth that they have in their beliefs. They are our brothers in Christ. We want them to come to the fullness of the truth.

I came to the Church from and evangelical Church called Calvary Chapel. I have nothing but love for my friends in Calvary Chapel. I haven’t left anything behind in becoming Catholic, I just became united in the Catholic Church.

So I invite you to keep investigating. The Catholic Church is based on the faith the apostles first had, through it the Bible was created. The Bible was created to be used in the liturgy. So the Bible doesn’t make the Church rather the other way around through the Church by the Holy Spirit the Bible was made. Please investigate this claim and keep asking questions.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Eden]

squeekster:

Maybe a little background on me would be helpful. Maybe not. Heck, it may even hasten my involuntary departure. I don’t know.

I don’t post that much on some boards but I have no intention of leaving this one voluntarily. I am one of those EVIL sola scripturists. Because of that, I simply compare teachings of the Catholic church to Scripture. And for the record, I do not consider the Apocrypha (or whatever you guys call it) to be God Breathed Scripture. Consequently, since you made the comment that “There are so many lies put out there and perpetuated, ranging from the subtle to the incredible”, I consider a number of the things that the Catholic church teaches to be included in that statement. Why? Because some of them simply can NOT be found anywhere in Scripture. Some can only be found if one takes a verse totally out of the context that it was written in and twists it horribly. And some can only be found within what you guys call “tradition”. The funny thing about “tradition” is that no one really seems to know just what it entails, other than it was “passed down”. For instance, I’ve had Catholics tell me that Mary being born sinless is from tradition, supposedly meaning that it was passed down from the Apostles. Yet when asked which of the original Apostles made the claim, I get the message board equivalent of a blank stare. Now don’t get me wrong, in certain instances, there isn’t anything really wrong with a few traditions. But if one is going to claim that these alleged traditions are from God, it just seems to me that there ought to be concrete proof of those assertions. Not just “it’s that way because the church says so”.

Your Bible was preserved for you by the Catholic Church for over 1500 years. Martin Luther removed several books - but the books you do have were deemed inspired by Catholic bishops in the 4th century. The Catholic Church set the canon. The books that Luther took out are the Deuterocanonicals. Protestants call them Apocrypha.

Here is a link: catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9807frs.asp

Since you have asked about Martin Luther specifically, here is Martin Luther on the Bible:

``We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all" - Martin Luther - Commentary on St. John

 

[Eden]

For instance, I’ve had Catholics tell me that Mary being born sinless is from tradition, supposedly meaning that it was passed down from the Apostles. Yet when asked which of the original Apostles made the claim, I get the message board equivalent of a blank stare. Now don’t get me wrong, in certain instances, there isn’t anything really wrong with a few traditions. But if one is going to claim that these alleged traditions are from God, it just seems to me that there ought to be concrete proof of those assertions. Not just “it’s that way because the church says so”.

This topic is worthy of a completely new thread. If you start a new thread specifically on the topic of the Blessed Virgin, that would allow all of us to focus on one topic at a time. Thanks.

 

[Church_Militant]

Already been done guys: HERE