Lutheran and Anglican Prayer beads....thoughts?

[Publisher]

Both of these were revealed to us via revelation from God, so the use of the Rosary as the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is understandable because God has ordained it’s use. However, someone just changing the words without express revelation from God to a Marian prayer is a problem for me.
Also, the Divine Mercy Chaplet still includes the Hail Mary in it’s opening prayers and it wasn’t designed because someone was uncomfortable with praying the regular Rosary.

catholicdoors.com/prayers/chaplets.htm

From what I understand of Catholic belief…the “revelation” of the rosary is a private revelation and “worthy of belief”…NOT required to believe…so the “skeptic” who doesn’t believe in this “private revelation” but who uses prayer beads or prayer ropes to assist in prayer…isn’t “changing” anything…they are simply using a tool to assist in prayer.

Also…being uncomfortable with Marian devotion really isn’t the reason Anglicans or Lutherans…or Methodists…use prayer beads/rosary…they use them as a tool for prayer…not to disparage Marian devotion.

I have made several rosaries…Catholic, Anglican and “Protestant”…the Catholic rosary was a traditional set of beads I made and sent to a Catholic friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer…the Anglican rosary I made as a presentation gift for a Catholic friend who was being confirmed into the Episcopal church…and a “Protestant rosary” for a friend for Xmas…the “Protestant rosary” has 33 beads…one for each year of the life of Christ…and three larger beads to separate the “decades”…one for each member of the Godhead…the “Christ bead” has a circlet of smaller beads around it with a cross hanging from the “circlet”…

 

[ClamDigger]

From what I understand of Catholic belief…the “revelation” of the rosary is a private revelation and “worthy of belief”…nor required to believe…so the “skeptic” who doesn’t believe in this “private revelation” but who uses prayer beads or prayer ropes to assist in prayer…isn’t “changing” anything…they are simply using a tool to assist in prayer.

Errr… I suppose so. Catholics who don’t believe in private revelation tend to make me uneasy.

Also…being uncomfortable with Marian devotion really isn’t the reason Anglicans or Lutherans…or Methodists…use prayer beads/rosary…they use them as a tool for prayer…not to disparage Marian devotion.

Then why would they need to change the Marian Rosary, especially in light of the fact that some (by no means all!) of their churches actively preach against Marian devotion?
I guess my problem isn’t really with the beads or the prayers themselves. It’s more with people who use them who are opposed to Marian devotion.

I have made several rosaries…Catholic, Anglican and “Protestant”…the Catholic rosary was a traditional set of beads I made and sent to a Catholic friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer…the Anglican rosary I made as a presentation gift for a Catholic friend who was being confirmed into the Episcopal church…and a “Protestant rosary” for a friend for Xmas…the “Protestant rosary” has 33 beads…one for each year of the life of Christ…and three larger beads to separate the “decades”…one for each member of the Godhead…the “Christ bead” has a circlet of smaller beads around it with a cross hanging from the “circlet”…

That’s actually really nice of you!

 

[Publisher]

I wouldn’t characterize those who’s tradition does not embrace Marian devotion as “opposed” to Marian devotion…it simply is not part of their tradition.

 

[ClamDigger]

I wouldn’t characterize those who’s tradition does not embrace Marian devotion as “opposed” to Marian devotion…it simply is not part of their tradition.

You must admit, however, that there are Protestants and even entire Protestant religions that do oppose Marian devotion.

 

[Juliebug108]

You must admit, however, that there are Protestants and even entire Protestant religions that do oppose Marian devotion.

Very true!

 

[JoshuaNY]

I beleive Lutherans using the Rosary for prayer fell out of fashion during the Pious movement in the 17th century. They beleived that it was “too Catholic” as they beleived so many other things were. Plus it included the maryian devotion which we do not do.
I have seen other versions of the “Lutheran Rosary” that include 7 small beads between the large beads and part of Luthers small catechism is prayed for each"septade"
I would include the link but I cant find it at this current moment.

Joshua

 

[ClamDigger]

I beleive Lutherans using the Rosary for prayer fell out of fashion during the Pious movement in the 17th century. They beleived that it was “too Catholic” do as they beleived so many other things are. Plus it included the maryian devotion which we do not

Hmm… This makes me sad. It makes me sad that sometimes other Christians feel as though they can’t express devotion to Mary because they view Catholicism as having a monopoly on Marian devotion.

 

[JoshuaNY]

Clam Digger,
I agree some do think it is just a Catholic thing. But I think most beleive that we should not pray to anyone to intercede for us to the Lord. From the LCMS website:

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or Scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

That is not to say that we do not love Mary for what she did, but we do not beleive it scriptual to ask for her intercedence with the Lord.
Hope this helps

Joshua

 

[Juliebug108]

I beleive Lutherans using the Rosary for prayer fell out of fashion during the Pious movement in the 17th century. They beleived that it was “too Catholic” as they beleived so many other things were. Plus it included the maryian devotion which we do not do.
I have seen other versions of the “Lutheran Rosary” that include 7 small beads between the large beads and part of Luthers small catechism is prayed for each"septade"
I would include the link but I cant find it at this current moment.

Joshua

So, back to my original question: If Luther prayed the Rosary and encouraged Marian devotion…why stop? I see absolutely nothing wrong with Marian devotion.

The small catechism devotion that you’re referring to is here:
whitestreetbeadcompany.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.shoppingStyle&styleID=LPB

Click the link that says “how to pray the small catechism”

I personally find that one to be a bit…complicated…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

Clam Digger,
I agree some do think it is just a Catholic thing. But I think most beleive that we should not pray to anyone to intercede for us to the Lord. From the LCMS website:

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or Scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

That is not to say that we do not love Mary for what she did, but we do not beleive it scriptual to ask for her intercedence with the Lord.
Hope this helps

Joshua

Mary devotion is not always the same thing as intercessory prayer. the original Hail Mary is not asking for intercession. There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary. After all, God thought she worthy of bearing His only Son, so I think she’s pretty important and special.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[ClamDigger]

Clam Digger,
I agree some do think it is just a Catholic thing. But I think most beleive that we should not pray to anyone to intercede for us to the Lord. From the LCMS website:

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or Scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

That is not to say that we do not love Mary for what she did, but we do not beleive it scriptual to ask for her intercedence with the Lord.
Hope this helps

Joshua

Seems to go against the spirit of Luther to me…

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all in nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.”

“She, the Lady above heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility! It would surely have been more just to have arranged for her a golden coach, pulled by 4,000 horses, and to cry out and proclaim as the carriage proceeded: ‘Here passes the woman who is raised far above all women, indeed above the whole human race.’”

 

[ClamDigger]

Mary devotion is not always the same thing as intercessory prayer. the original Hail Mary is not asking for intercession. There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary. After all, God thought she worthy of bearing His only Son, so I think she’s pretty important and special.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

huh?

I have begun to suspect that Anglicanism is not an undifferentiated unity.

GKC

 

[JoshuaNY]

Seems to go against the spirit of Luther to me…

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all in nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.”

“She, the Lady above heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility! It would surely have been more just to have arranged for her a golden coach, pulled by 4,000 horses, and to cry out and proclaim as the carriage proceeded: ‘Here passes the woman who is raised far above all women, indeed above the whole human race.’”

If you read the above quote. Nowhere in there does it say that we should pray to Mary for intercession. Veneration is a fancy way of saying Honor. We honor the Blessed Mother we just do not pray to her for intercession. The spirit of Luther is still alive today, we honor and adore the Blessed Mother.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I really wish this hadn’t become so stigmatized with protestants! I’m not sure why that happened.

I’ve sometimes wondered about that kind of thing. I think there has been a tendency among some Protestants to reject practices that aren’t explicitly (as far as the interpreter thinks, anyway) mentioned in Scripture. I also think this combines with a desire to purge Christianity of “Roman” aspects. I seem to recall a Q and A on a Lutheran website, with some Lutheran theologians answering laypersons’ questions and one layperson asked why Catholics call Mary the Mother of God. The questioner then ranted a bit about how that was wrong and how Mary was the mother of Jesus only. To my surprise, the Lutheran theologian stated that Lutherans do not reject the idea of Mary as Mother of God and that Protestants need to be careful about rejecting something just because it appears to be “Catholic belief.”

 

[ClamDigger]

If you read the above quote. Nowhere in there does it say that we should pray to Mary for intercession. Veneration is a fancy way of saying Honor. We honor the Blessed Mother we just do not pray to her for intercession. The spirit of Luther is still alive today, we honor and adore the Blessed Mother.

I didn’t say that you have to ask for her intercession. Luther was against that. However, Marian devotion can exist without intercessory prayer. That is the only point I was trying to make.

 

[mark_a]

Mary devotion is not always the same thing as intercessory prayer. the original Hail Mary is not asking for intercession. There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary. After all, God thought she worthy of bearing His only Son, so I think she’s pretty important and special.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

But ultimately, isn’t non-intercessory Marian devotion really a Marian hint?

 

[JonNC]

I’ve sometimes wondered about that kind of thing. I think there has been a tendency among some Protestants to reject practices that aren’t explicitly (as far as the interpreter thinks, anyway) mentioned in Scripture. I also think this combines with a desire to purge Christianity of “Roman” aspects. I seem to recall a Q and A on a Lutheran website, with some Lutheran theologians answering laypersons’ questions and one layperson asked why Catholics call Mary the Mother of God. The questioner then ranted a bit about how that was wrong and how Mary was the mother of Jesus only. To my surprise, the Lutheran theologian stated that Lutherans do not reject the idea of Mary as Mother of God and that Protestants need to be careful about rejecting something just because it appears to be "Catholic belief."

And her was right to do so. The Lutheran confessions affirm Theotokos, and Lutherans accept the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431.
Poor catechesis is sometimes a Lutheran problem, too.

Jon

 

[mark_a]

To my surprise, the Lutheran theologian stated that Lutherans do not reject the idea of Mary as Mother of God and that Protestants need to be careful about rejecting something just because it appears to be “Catholic belief.”

Even Billy Graham warns against this attitude toward Mary.

 

[JonNC]

Clam Digger,
I agree some do think it is just a Catholic thing. But I think most beleive that we should not pray to anyone to intercede for us to the Lord. From the LCMS website:

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or Scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

That is not to say that we do not love Mary for what she did, but we do not beleive it scriptual to ask for her intercedence with the Lord.
Hope this helps

Joshua

Hi Joshua,
I wonder, if we talked to synod leaders about the term “mediator”, do you not think they would accept the term in a broader sense? Such as when in the Prayer of the Church we list our intercessory prayers for those loved ones and members who are sick, or in need of prayer, could it not be said that we are in a way “mediating” with Christ for those in need of prayer. Also, as we Lutherans certainly believe that the Blessed Virgin and all the saints pray constantly for the Church Militant even without our request for said prayers, are they not in a manner “mediating”? Finally, when my wife and I took our children to be baptized, were we, in a sense, “mediating”?

Certainly, Lutherans as a rule do not pray for saintly intercession (as I said, they do it anyway), but we can pray that God listen to the prayers of the saints for our sake.

Jon