Lutheran Archbishop on Full Communion with Episcopalians/ Old Catholics

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Peter_J said:
I agree. Rome continues to improve relations with Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.; but I don’t see us entering into a full communion agreement with any major groups any time soon. (Possibly with the PNCC or the ACoE, but even that doesn’t seem terribly likely.)
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Correct.

My aunt, a very devout Anglo-Catholic, was against many member Churches in the Anglican Communion…some where to liberal, some totally missed the boat, and some were “too Roman.” If you walked into her parish, you knew you were in a Catholic parish. They were very much against the ordination of homosexuals and women, only males were altar servers…very much orthodox Anglo-Catholics. Yet she was also against the Papacy as well. 🤷

Kind of reminds me of the WELS in being very orthodox in beliefs yet so very far from Rome.

I would love for there to be some sort of union but not in favor of one Church under the Bishop of Rome. Just my personal opinion. 🙂
 
Peter_J said:
Kind of an odd way of putting it, since the JDDJ was several years before his papacy; but I think I get your point. 🙂
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Oops!

I have no idea how and if Cardinal Ratzinger influenced the Joint Declaration but he spoke quite sympathetically about Martin Luther and the Augsburg Confession [even referring to it as a “Catholic” document].

Frankly, I am very encouraged by the conclusions identified in the “From Conflict to Communion” Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Considering the progress Lutherans and Anglicans have made only helps the ecumenical efforts with Roman Catholics. The Pope is the key player, so to speak. And if we follow the Vatican efforts over the past 50 years to seek reunification of the Church than there is much to be grateful for.

Lutherans, as the first to leave the Roman Church, may be the first to return but also an impetus toward unification of all Christendom.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Oops!

I have no idea how and if Cardinal Ratzinger influenced the Joint Declaration but he spoke quite sympathetically about Martin Luther and the Augsburg Confession [even referring to it as a “Catholic” document].

Frankly, I am very encouraged by the conclusions identified in the “From Conflict to Communion” Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Considering the progress Lutherans and Anglicans have made only helps the ecumenical efforts with Roman Catholics. The Pope is the key player, so to speak. And if we follow the Vatican efforts over the past 50 years to seek reunification of the Church than there is much to be grateful for.

Lutherans, as the first to leave the Roman Church, may be the first to return but also an impetus toward unification of all Christendom.
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Good post, although I have a feeling that some well-meaning Catholic poster is going to pipe up to say “the Orthodox also left the Roman Church”. (:rolleyes:)
 
Peter_J said:
Good post, although I have a feeling that some well-meaning Catholic poster is going to pipe up to say “the Orthodox also left the Roman Church”. (:rolleyes:)
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Yes, and many Lutherans would say that Pope Leo gave Luther no choice. What is so encouraging is that the Lutheran-Catholic focus has astonished and humbled both groups in the realization that we agree on all the most important aspects of the holy faith.
This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church
lutheranworld.org/sites/d…0Communion.pdf
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Peter_J said:
I would say No … although I guess it depends on which Catholic understanding of it you’re talking about. (Personally, I’m rather sympathetic to the Orthodox view that full communion requires doctrinal agreement**.)
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This is the LCMS/ILC (International Lutheran Council) view.

Jon
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Yes, and many Lutherans would say that Pope Leo gave Luther no choice. What is so encouraging is that the Lutheran-Catholic focus has astonished and humbled both groups in the realization that we agree on all the most important aspects of the holy faith.
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I wouldn’t say “all”. I would say we agree on many, and on some others do not consider the differences Church dividing. However, there remain some. After all, Rome does not accept the Book of Concord in its entirety, and Lutherans do not accept the Catholic Catechism in its entirety. If we did, there would be no division.

Jon
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Yes, and many Lutherans would say that Pope Leo gave Luther no choice.
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Well that could be debated. But I was just pointing out how polemical it is when Latins use rhetoric like “the Orthodox left the Roman Church”.

Now back to …
 
Peter_J said:
Well that could be debated. But I was just pointing out how polemical it is when Latins use rhetoric like “the Orthodox left the Roman Church”.

Now back to …
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👍 I understand.

It is like the division among Lutherans in the U.S. But what is so apparent is that we believe and worship exactly alike yet squabble over how we view the world.
 
JonNC said:
I wouldn’t say “all”. I would say we agree on many, and on some others do not consider the differences Church dividing. However, there remain some. After all, Rome does not accept the Book of Concord in its entirety, and Lutherans do not accept the Catholic Catechism in its entirety. If we did, there would be no division.

Jon
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And that the point, Jon.

The only areas of disagreement are almost non-theological. Papal infallibility for example.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
And that the point, Jon.

The only areas of disagreement are almost non-theological. Papal infallibility for example.
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As wonderful as the JDDJ is, and I think the LCMS is wrong in not signing on even with caveats as Rome did, there are still differences in our soteriological views.
You mentioned Papal infallibility; add to that universal ordinary jurisdiction, and I suspect our Catholic friends would consider these theological.
There are still serious differences in our views on the Sacrifice of the Mass.

these and others must be resolved. It can’t be simply a matter of glossing over them, or unity won’t last.

Jon
 
EvangelCatholic said:
👍 I understand.
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🙂

P.S. In retrospect, I might have been too laconic. I should have said that “the Orthodox left the Roman Church” would be polemical rhetoric, whereas “Lutherans left the Roman Church” is arguably true since the West all used to be the Latin Church.
 
Peter_J said:
🙂

P.S. In retrospect, I might have been too laconic. I should have said that “the Orthodox left the Roman Church” would be polemical rhetoric, whereas “Lutherans left the Roman Church” is arguably true since the West all used to be the Latin Church.
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That we left the Roman Church is true. The argument always comes down to our claim that we remain in the Church Catholic. 😉

Jon
 
aidanbradypop said:
Correct.

My aunt, a very devout Anglo-Catholic, was against many member Churches in the Anglican Communion…some where to liberal, some totally missed the boat, and some were “too Roman.” If you walked into her parish, you knew you were in a Catholic parish. They were very much against the ordination of homosexuals and women, only males were altar servers…very much orthodox Anglo-Catholics. Yet she was also against the Papacy as well. 🤷
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GKC has said (I think) that most Anglo-Catholics are somewhat Anglo-Papalist. But even if that’s so, I guess that still leaves a minority of Anglo-Catholics who **aren’t **somewhat Anglo-Papalist.
 
Peter_J said:
GKC has said (I think) that most Anglo-Catholics are somewhat Anglo-Papalist. But even if that’s so, I guess that still leaves a minority of Anglo-Catholics who **aren’t **somewhat Anglo-Papalist.
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It kind of all depends on the area, bishop, and priest you have. The Anglicans that I know, about 50-70 in nw North Carolina are very devout and not in favor of the papacy. They are much like the EO in the regard.
 
Peter_J said:
GKC has said (I think) that most Anglo-Catholics are somewhat Anglo-Papalist. But even if that’s so, I guess that still leaves a minority of Anglo-Catholics who **aren’t **somewhat Anglo-Papalist.
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No, not me. Most Anglo-Catholics are favorably inclined toward the Papacy. But Anglo-Papalists are Anglo-Catholics on steroids. It’s the other way around.

GKC
 
GKC said:
No, not me. Most Anglo-Catholics are favorably inclined toward the Papacy. But Anglo-Papalists are Anglo-Catholics on steroids. It’s the other way around.

GKC
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But you would agree that Anglo-Catholics vary in degree. Correct? As a high church Episcopalian, I have no issue with the Bishop of Rome. My issue is with the Bishop of Rome being the head of the entire Church.
 
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