Lutheran belief - Sacramental Union (not Consubstantiation)

[KathleenGee]

Different Lutheran congregations…

Fr. KjetilK,

Thank you for your most insightful and helpful explanations.

I take a client to a Lutheran service on Sundays. He says the church we’d be going to at that time has the folk music which he does not care for, but it is the earliest in the day. So we go.

I came in to see the elevated altar, the sanctuary light, a beautiful local wood motif of the Last Supper, a very small but personable and most friendly church community.

The client wanted me to go to communion with him, it meant alot to him, a new widower and I am hired to help him. I went up but I knew I was not participating in the Body and Blood of Christ, so I didn’t think I was abusing anything. But I didn’t think it right I participate as such. Next time I really didn’t want to go up there, did the same.

Then I read more of their pamphlet of norms and said if I am not of their faith, do cross my heart to get a blessing but not receive so I did, and with the community so small, I felt like a protestor, standing out and making a defiant gesture in my mind to these lovely people. I had to introduce myself as a Catholic to the pastor and to some serving the cup and wine. It went OK.

I saw the parts of the service flow along pretty much like the Mass, and the first part did give absolution of sin.

The pastor then came to communion time, and gave the prayer of “This is my body, this is my blood”. He was up at altar alone. But when that part finished, a layman went up to get the cup and wafer and hold it up before the congregation stating ‘This is my body and blood…’ and that part disturbed me, looking anti-clerical more than anything. The other disturbing part was seeing a woman afterwards pouring the wine into dirt next to the front door.

I later to let my client know that I simply was not comfortable going up there and he was OK with that. So we then sat in the back.The pastor sees me participate in song and I bow my head when he prays.

I experience the same Holy Spirit and pretty much (in regards to their communion) the presence of Christ among them. A lady wanted to sit next to me, and i did bow at the words of the Incarnation in the Nicene Creed. She told me afterwards, – she a former Catholic, – was really effected by my bowing at the Incarnation, like she used to do years ago. At the Creed, which instead of using ‘Catholic’, they use Christian…and I just say out loud ‘Catholic’ but nobody has heard me say it yet.

Likewise I don’t believe that once i consume the Eucharist, He disappears down my gut. Rather, in reference to Luther, the Eucharist now becomes part of my entire being that were deformed by original sin, and the more I receive the Lord properly and live Him and His word out, the more we…I cannot say “I”, become more Christlike and extend Him into the world…into the response of ‘accept these gifts…ordinary bread and wine’…Christ to become active in ordinary me with my non eventful ordinary life.

I would say the difference between they and us is that the sense of the sacred is much deeper in the Catholic Mass, much more profound and with the communion of the saints. It is more transcendent and like being taken into sacred space, the Catholic Mass.

The Catholic Liturgy of the Word drawing me into the arena to re-witness salvation history among the early believers of faith in the OT and NT. Here at this church,they have anyone come up to volunteer, and most sound like they are reading in a classroom…I don’t mean to sound insulting, no way. I have been a reader at Mass and we are given training in how to speak, project, and give intent, and i prayed one hour during the week reflecting as well on my service in the Liturgy of the Word.

I cannot create or perfectly be Christ to others because of my own humanity and inclination to fall.

Christ was most literal when He said ‘This is My Body, This is My Blood’. And He said those Who receive Him, receive Eternal Life…not cessation. The mystery perpetuates in my life with the Lord working through me in ways I am not aware of going about busy daily activities.

I cared for a man with cancer when his son came in with communion. I heard the son say a prayer affirm the Lord, the family not Catholic. But in faith I sensed the physical presence of Christ among them even though I was in another room. Afterwards, the son placed the glass of wine on the counter to be thrown down the sink. I felt the wine was sacred in some way and had trouble disposing it. I have no idea if the wine itself was the Blood of Christ, but I did however sense its sacredness. Looking back at it, i should have put water in the glass, put it in another and drink it.

Because Christ remains with us in the Eucharist, in fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, yes, I believe it is most proper He continue to remain with us in the tabernacle, it is most fitting Our Lord be brought out into the open and walk among us on our city streets to sanctify them. I asked our pastor if we could go on beyond church property on the streets of downtown…but because I live in one of the most secular and hostile states against Catholicism and religion in general, he said no because he did not want to see the sacrament abused.

Faith and reason go together and we need both. But in the end, faith is mystery.

 

[steido01]

The pastor then came to communion time, and gave the prayer of “This is my body, this is my blood”. He was up at altar alone. But when that part finished, a layman went up to get the cup and wafer and hold it up before the congregation stating ‘This is my body and blood…’ and that part disturbed me, looking anti-clerical more than anything.

First, I’d like to thank you for taking such good care of your client. He is lucky to have such a Christian caregiver like yourself. Secondly, this bit perplexes me too. I’ve never heard of this before and I don’t understand what this layperson was doing. Do you have more information?

The other disturbing part was seeing a woman afterwards pouring the wine into dirt next to the front door.

This is actually the correct way to dispose of the Blood. Your communion does the same, typically via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. We Lutherans follow Church tradition in this respect. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition:

If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains, they can be disposed of in a number of ways. The best way is to consume the remaining elements, since the Lord said, “Take and eat … Take and drink,” and did not provide for anything that was left over. There is historic precedent for reserving the remaining elements against the next communion. The hosts can be stored in a pyx or ciborium (apart from unconsecrated hosts), the blood of the Lord in a suitable cruet or flagon (apart from unconsecrated wine). **What remains in the chalice, however, should either be consumed or poured into the piscine or onto the ground, since there may be crumbs or other foreign matter in it. **The reserved elements may then be kept in the sacristy or placed on the altar or credence and covered with a white veil. It is un-Lutheran and irreverent to place unused elements in the trash or to pour the remainder of what is in the chalice or flagon into the common drain.

And from the “Theology and Practice of the Lord’s Supper,” as prepared by the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations:

B.2.c. Post Communion Reverence
The consecrated elements which remain after all have communed should be treated with reverence. This reverence has been expressed by Lutherans in various ways. Some have followed the ancient practice of burning the bread and pouring the wine upon the earth. Others have established a basin and drain-piscina-specifically for disposal for the wine. The elders or altar guild may also return the consecrated bread and wine to specific containers [a pyx or ciborium, separate from unconsecrated elements] for future sacramental use, or the elders and pastor can consume the remaining elements. All of these practices should be understood properly.

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[benjohnson]

I take a client to a Lutheran service on Sundays. He says the church we’d be going to at that time has the folk music which he does not care for, but it is the earliest in the day. So we go.

(…)

I’m touched by our kindness to us Lutherans, your wittiness to the universal faith, and your steadfastness in your Catholic teaching.

…

If you see something amiss in a Lutheran church, it’s entirely ok to ask for clarification from the pastor - the disposition of the Blood for example is fair game!

Old Lutherans do bow their heads at the correct times - may your good example spread from person to person as you encounter them.

 

[SteveVH]

After reading through the last few pages of this thread I would hope that it would become evident that an authoritative definition is absolutely necessary. There should be absolutely no doubt as to the reality of what we are dealing with here. When left to “we just believe he is truly present” we find that some choose to believe that he is only present when one is receiving, or that the elements must be re-consecrated. The possibility that Jesus is being thrown into the trash can makes me cringe.

This is what happens when the details are felt to be unimportant; as long as we believe he is somehow really present it doesn’t really matter how. In reality it matters very much “how”, as evidenced by the posts on this thread…

As a Catholic there is no doubt in anyone’s mind as to how we are to treat the Eucharist; the source and summit of our faith. And, because of the promises of Christ, we know that the Church’s determination is true.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

After reading through the last few pages of this thread I would hope that it would become evident that an authoritative definition is absolutely necessary. There should be absolutely no doubt as to the reality of what we are dealing with here. When left to “we just believe he is truly present” we find that some choose to believe that he is only present when one is receiving, or that the elements must be re-consecrated. The possibility that Jesus is being thrown into the trash can makes me cringe.

This is what happens when the details are felt to be unimportant; as long as we believe he is somehow really present it doesn’t really matter how. In reality it matters very much “how”, as evidenced by the posts on this thread…

As a Catholic there is no doubt in anyone’s mind as to how we are to treat the Eucharist; the source and summit of our faith. And, because of the promises of Christ, we know that the Church’s determination is true.

Well stated. Lutherans, particularly in the U.S. have been terribly misguided by Protestant influences. Up until the last century, Holy Communion was celebrated only once of twice a month in many Lutheran parishes. The pastor is solely responsible for the Eucharistic elements and needs to be held accountable for heretical indifference. In my opinion, it is a scandal as worse as church leaders/ bishops who question the Virgin birth of Christ.

 

[KjetilK]

We’re at an impasse then as far as this like of argument goes as I see the Nicene creed as full of God’s revelation and not Man’s wisdom. Frankly, in my opinion, the incarnation stands fully apart form our worldly expectation.

Why say that philosophy must be ‘worldly’?

 

[benjohnson]

Why say that philosophy must be ‘worldly’?

Because it comes from Mans reason - not God’s revelation. I would say, Man’s philosophy comes and goes, but the Word endures forever.

 

[pablope]

Keep in mind that Lutheran belief and Lutheran practice can differ. The issue of the consecrated elements was addressed in dialogue with Catholics with the strong recommendation that Lutherans consume all the host/ chalice at Mass or reserve it [thus a tabernacle/ aubry]. That is why many pastors drink all the wine during the ablutions. Many of us have served as assistants at the altar and if there is too much wine for the celebrant to drink it is consumed by the assistants after Mass in the sacristy. When a pastor takes holy Communion to the sick/ hospitalized, there are prayers that signify the Real Presence so it is unnecessary and probably poor practice to reconsecrate the holy elements again unless the priest takes unconsecrated bread/ wine and says another Mass.

Question: In Lutheran practice, is it usually the minister who brings the host to the sick? Or a lay person (not the minister) or volunteer?

 

[Per_Crucem]

Question: In Lutheran practice, is it usually the minister who brings the host to the sick? Or a lay person (not the minister) or volunteer?

If not the pastor, usually an elder.

 

[pablope]

F

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathleenGee View Post
The other disturbing part was seeing a woman afterwards pouring the wine into dirt next to the front door.
This is actually the correct way to dispose of the Blood. Your communion does the same, typically via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. We Lutherans follow Church tradition in this respect. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition:

This is actually the correct way to dispose of the Blood. Your communion does the same, typically via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. We Lutherans follow Church tradition in this respect. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition:

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Except it is not done at the front door. I too would be aghast as seeing this done at the front door.

 

[KjetilK]

Because it comes from Mans reason - not God’s revelation. I would say, Man’s philosophy comes and goes, but the Word endures forever.

Than you have to conclude that the Creeds of Nicea and Chalcedon have descended into manmade doctrine.

The Nicene Creed states that Christ is “of one substance with the Father,” thus employing the philosophical category of substance (Gk. οὐσία, ousía).

The Chalcedonian Creed states that Christ is “the Self-same of a rational soul and body,” and is, in and after the Incarnation, “acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis.” Here the Creed employs the Greek notion of man as a substance ‘composed’ of a rational soul and a body, and it employs thus employing the philosophical categories of nature, person and hypostasis.

You would have to reject both of these Creeds to remain coherent. Or, to put it another way: To coherently hold your position, you would have to say that any theological discussion is off limits, since every time you argue a case, you employ philosophy.

 

[pablope]

Than you have to conclude that the Creeds of Nicea and Chalcedon have descended into manmade doctrine.

You would have to reject both of these Creeds to remain coherent. Or, to put it another way: To coherently hold your position, you would have to say that any theological discussion is off limits, since every time you argue a case, you employ philosophy.

Hi, Father K…I am not sure you are aware, but a Catholic seminarian needs a degree in Philosophy before going to theology. Is this the same for a Lutheran seminarian?

 

[KjetilK]

Hi, Father K…I am not sure you are aware, but a Catholic seminarian needs a degree in Philosophy before going to theology. Is this the same for a Lutheran seminarian?

No, not as far as I’m aware. But we need a master’s degree in theology, at least here in Norway.

Than you have to conclude that the Creeds of Nicea and Chalcedon have descended into manmade doctrine.

Or, what about this, from the Epitome of the Formula of Concord, paragraph 23-25 (I, II:13), which employs Aristotelian philosophy directly, in reference to Original Sin?

But as to the Latin terms substantia and accidens, because they are not words of Holy Scripture, and besides unknown to the ordinary man, they should not be used in sermons before ordinary, uninstructed people, but simple people should be spared them.

But in the schools, among the learned, these words are rightly retained in disputations concerning original sin, because they are well known and used without any misunderstanding, to distinguish exactly between the essence of a thing and what attaches to it in an accidental way.

For the distinction between God’s work and that of the devil is thereby designated in the clearest way, because the devil can create no substance, but can only, in an accidental way, by the providence of God [God permitting], corrupt the substance created by God.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

No, not as far as I’m aware. But we need a master’s degree in theology, at least here in Norway.

Or, what about this, from the Epitome of the Formula of Concord, paragraph 23-25 (I, II:13), which employs Aristotelian philosophy directly, in reference to Original Sin?

But as to the Latin terms substantia and accidens, because they are not words of Holy Scripture, and besides unknown to the ordinary man, they should not be used in sermons before ordinary, uninstructed people, but simple people should be spared them.

But in the schools, among the learned, these words are rightly retained in disputations concerning original sin, because they are well known and used without any misunderstanding, to distinguish exactly between the essence of a thing and what attaches to it in an accidental way.

For the distinction between God’s work and that of the devil is thereby designated in the clearest way, because the devil can create no substance, but can only, in an accidental way, by the providence of God [God permitting], corrupt the substance created by God.

When I was a seminarian many many years ago, one had to have a BA degree to enter the major seminary. The system here was a minor seminary [essentially the last 2 years of undergraduate work] with a degree in theology, sociology, philosophy, etc. before transferring to the major seminary where a MA and/or doctorate in theology was earned.

Curious, regarding sacramental practice in Norway. Do some parishes use individual cups for the wine?

 

[steido01]

Except it is not done at the front door. I too would be aghast as seeing this done at the front door.

This is neither uncommon nor unorthodox practice, Pablope. It is ancient, of both East and West. Returning His Blood to the earth near the entry to the church is symbolic of Christ’s being the Way (or Door) by which we attain righteousness, and can serve as a reminder of Passover, when lambs blood covered the entry posts of the Hebrews’ homes. I assure you this is among the most reverent of ways to handle His Blood. Frankly, it’s the only reverent option available in many places that have building codes against “special drainage.” Trust me, I’ve been in towns that refuse to let churches build how they’d prefer.

 

[SteveVH]

Well stated. Lutherans, particularly in the U.S. have been terribly misguided by Protestant influences. Up until the last century, Holy Communion was celebrated only once of twice a month in many Lutheran parishes. The pastor is solely responsible for the Eucharistic elements and needs to be held accountable for heretical indifference. In my opinion, it is a scandal as worse as church leaders/ bishops who question the Virgin birth of Christ.

Agreed. But as far as the pastor being solely responsible for heretical indifference I would think it would be a difficult task when there is no definitive doctrine to which he can defer.

 

[GKC]

Except it is not done at the front door. I too would be aghast as seeing this done at the front door.

I would too. Unless that was definitively consecrated ground, Where any piscina/sacrium eventually connects.

GKC

 

[benjohnson]

Than you have to conclude that the Creeds of Nicea and Chalcedon have descended into manmade doctrine.

The Nicene Creed states that Christ is “of one substance with the Father,” thus employing the philosophical category of substance (Gk. οὐσία, ousía)…

Where I come from, philosophy is the application man’s reasoning power.

So I can’t see how saying God the Son being ‘one substance’ with God the Father and being in ‘one substance’ with the Holy Spirit could be philosophy. For any standard rational philosophy I’m aware of, such and assertion would be considered the product of an addled mind and require ridiculous predicates.

For me, I can’t see how Homoousios can’t be derived from anything other than God’s revelation to us - and as such it is well outside the bounds of philosophy.

I could see that we could be talking across each other - in my mind, theology and philosophy are quite distinct. If you view theology as a form of philosophy, then your assertion would be correct.

I would however point out that 1 Corinthians 1:25 says that “the foolishness of God is wiser than men”

 

[SteveVH]

Where I come from, philosophy is the application man’s reasoning power.

So I can’t see how saying God the Son being ‘one substance’ with God the Father and being in ‘one substance’ with the Holy Spirit could be philosophy. For any standard rational philosophy I’m aware of, such and assertion would be considered the product of an addled mind and require ridiculous predicates.

For me, I can’t see how Homoousios can’t be derived from anything other than God’s revelation to us - and as such it is well outside the bounds of philosophy.

I could see that we could be talking across each other - in my mind, theology and philosophy are quite distinct. If you view theology as a form of philosophy, then your assertion would be correct.

I would however point out that 1 Corinthians 1:25 says that “the foolishness of God is wiser than men”

Ben, it isn’t that we reach conclusions concerning the nature of God through philosophy. It is that we explain divinely revealed truths with philosophical terms because no other terms suffice. We could not define the divinely revealed truth of the Trinity without using philosophical terms to distinguish between “Being” and “Person” for instance. So the fact that philosophical ideas and terms are used does not mean that the doctrine originated with the human mind.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for others’ kind response to my long post…

I think that as the Eucharist is absolute in fulfilling Christ’s sacrament that we do receive His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity and that it does not cease as one former archbishop I personally knew, who in front of some, said the Eucharist remains for 5 minutes…

The Eucharist goes beyond philosophy…to bring us into the eternal being, ‘I Am Who Am’.

The Eucharist ceases when we commit mortal sin.

To be restored to the Eucharist, consequently and rightfully, we must go to sacramental confession, not liturgical where our venial sins are absolved at the Confiteor at the beginning of Mass, but this sacramental confession, where we encounter Our Lord in His minister.

I am always embarrased at the beginning of the confession as I am personally aware of the priest. But as I get going, it is Our Lord I then begin to focus, opening my heart and soul. When I receive absolution, the presence of the Lord is so strong and sanctifying. When I leave the church building, I feel completely whole again, happy, and the world around me is centered and balanced.

My pastor told me if we have no breaks in mortal sin, we continue to grow in the Lord both spiritually and physically, even as we age and look worse every year as I do. Irregardless we grow to be more Christ like in avoiding sin…all because the Eucharist is truly Him in the form of bread and wine…transubstantion…no cessation, no philosophy can explain Him…mystery.

The Orthodox get pretty fed up with the Latin penchant for explaining everything.

But our Lord already did at the Last Supper a long time ago at the Cenacle…and He said eternal life…so it doesn’t cease. “This is My Body, This is My Blood…whoever receives of this receives eternal life”…Jesus, in the Eucharist, the fruit of the Tree of Life we first witnessed in the Garden of Eden.

God bless everyone. I have been waiting for some time. My Catholic friend told me consubstantiaton means Christ is there with the bread and wine…but separate.

And, I thought the Blood of Christ in the wine was consumed after Mass or poured down a special instrument…to reach the earth…think now of the resurrection…