Lutheran bishops

[GKC]

I am glad that you are participating in this discussion, GKC, since you, likely have the most expertize on Apostolic Succession among posters. Curious what your other thoughts are on this nearly 150 year old document? It was written from the Anglican perspective that Lutherans should view AP as canonical rather than just “tradition, expediency, and national pride”

I am not sure your first sentence is accurate.

Most Anglicans would and did certainly assume that the episcopate was scriptural and of the *esse *of the Church. The statement in the Ordinal, with respect to the antiquity of the historic orders in the Church, from Apostolic times, passed on to tried and selected men, by the imposition of hands, and that these ministers were to be continued (while not likely to convince a RC skeptic as to what that meant) are what historic Anglicanism assumed. I, naturally, do not make a generalization as to Anglicans. But still, so it was.

“And therefore, to the intent that these Orders may be continued, and reverently used and esteemed in this Church, no man shall be accounted or taken to be a lawful Bishop, Priest, or Deacon, in this Church, or suffered to execute any of the said Functions, except he be called, tried, examined, and admitted thereunto, according to the Form hereafter following, or hath had Episcopal Consecration or Ordination” Preface to the Ordinal.

I agree. Scriptural, Apostolic, essential.

GKC

 

[PatriciusRex]

Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AN DEFECT OF INTENTION is the best exposition of the logic behind Apostolicae Curae that I know of. Hughes’ ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD are the best presentation of, in the first case, the history, personalities and politics in the long sad story of the subject, and in the second, some considerations of a theological nature. I recommend them often.

I’ll have to look into these. Thanks for the recommend!

 

[GKC]

I’ll have to look into these. Thanks for the recommend!

You are very welcome.

Hughes is an interesting character. The first (of only 2, demonstrably) Anglican priest to be ordained a RC priest sub conditione, not absolutely, post Apostolicae Curae.

GKC.

 

[Erich]

The Apology of the Augsburg Confession

The Fourteenth Article, in which we say that in the Church the administration of the Sacraments and Word ought to be allowed no one ** unless he be rightly called**

From By What Authority?

What is a “pastor?” The word is from the Latin, in fact, and it means - quite simply - “shepherd.” If you call yourself a pastor, you are claiming to be a shepherd of God’s flock.

The term “pastor” is also interwoven with the biblical term “overseer,” or “elder” - in the Greek, episkopos, or “bishop.” We see this in St. Paul’s farewell discourse to the elders of Ephesus: “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28) There is the connection: the “episkopoi” of the church at Ephesus have guardianship over “the flock” of God’s people.

Further, to be a “pastor” (shepherd, overseer, elder) is also to be an “ambassador” for Christ (c.f. 2 Cor. 5:18ff). … The dictionary defines the word to mean, an “authorized messenger or representative” - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word “apostle” is Greek for “sent one.” To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be “sent.” (Rom. 10:15)

Now, what does “to be sent” mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you? In fact, it goes without saying that the one who confers the authority must be superior in authority to the one being commissioned, since no one can confer that which he does not possess himself.

In other words, a congregation’s vote cannot suffice, Scripturally speaking, to appoint a man as “pastor,” since the congregation (of inferior authority) cannot confer superior authority upon a man.
The Apostles did not take their office and authority upon themselves, but were appointed by a Superior Authority, Jesus Christ (who himself was sent by God the Father). The Apostles, in turn, passed on their apostolic authority, as Scripture demonstrates: “And the things which thou [Timothy] hast heard of me [Paul] by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men [the next generation of Apostolic Succession], who shall be fit to teach others [the subsequent generation] also.”

So, Scripture gives us a pretty clear definition of what it means to be “rightly called.”

 

[JonNC]

From By What Authority?

What is a “pastor?” The word is from the Latin, in fact, and it means - quite simply - “shepherd.” If you call yourself a pastor, you are claiming to be a shepherd of God’s flock.

The term “pastor” is also interwoven with the biblical term “overseer,” or “elder” - in the Greek, episkopos, or “bishop.” We see this in St. Paul’s farewell discourse to the elders of Ephesus: “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28) There is the connection: the “episkopoi” of the church at Ephesus have guardianship over “the flock” of God’s people.

Further, to be a “pastor” (shepherd, overseer, elder) is also to be an “ambassador” for Christ (c.f. 2 Cor. 5:18ff). … The dictionary defines the word to mean, an “authorized messenger or representative” - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word “apostle” is Greek for “sent one.” To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be “sent.” (Rom. 10:15)

Now, what does “to be sent” mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you? In fact, it goes without saying that the one who confers the authority must be superior in authority to the one being commissioned, since no one can confer that which he does not possess himself.

In other words, a congregation’s vote cannot suffice, Scripturally speaking, to appoint a man as “pastor,” since the congregation (of inferior authority) cannot confer superior authority upon a man.
The Apostles did not take their office and authority upon themselves, but were appointed by a Superior Authority, Jesus Christ (who himself was sent by God the Father). The Apostles, in turn, passed on their apostolic authority, as Scripture demonstrates: “And the things which thou [Timothy] hast heard of me [Paul] by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men [the next generation of Apostolic Succession], who shall be fit to teach others [the subsequent generation] also.”

So, Scripture gives us a pretty clear definition of what it means to be “rightly called.”

No argument, as the authority of the Church, in the form of our synod, makes the determination of who is and who is not rightly called and can be ordained.

Jon

 

[Erich]

No argument, as the authority of the Church, in the form of our synod, makes the determination of who is and who is not rightly called and can be ordained.

The synod certainly makes its determination as to whether or not a candidate for pastor is a member of the synod and available to receive a call, but the fact remains that in the LC-MS, individual congregations – of inferior authority – are the ones to extend calls to the individuals whom they believe would be best suited to ministry at that place. Not the LC-MS synod president himself, or the LC-MS board of directors, or an LC-MS district president.

Apparently, in the LC-MS, individual congregations – of inferior authority – can also dismiss someone to whom they have previously extended a call. We know from Scripture that sheep need a shepherd, but I konw of no flock of sheep in Scripture that got to choose who that shepherd would be!

 

[benjohnson]

individual congregations – of inferior authority

The scriptural counter to this idea that some of God’s children are inferior to others is:

First Epistle of Peter, 2:9:
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

Luther writes on this in On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520):

How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, “You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom.” In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: “No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God.”

 

[steido01]

The synod certainly makes its determination as to whether or not a candidate for pastor is a member of the synod and available to receive a call, but the fact remains that in the LC-MS, individual congregations – of inferior authority – are the ones to extend calls to the individuals whom they believe would be best suited to ministry at that place. Not the LC-MS synod president himself, or the LC-MS board of directors, or an LC-MS district president.

I think it’s important to remember that the polity of the church is adiaphora to Lutherans, so long as the Apostolic teaching is maintained. This is because Lutherans, while retaining the Office of Holy Ministry, do not differentiate between a pastor and a bishop on the theological level. In other words, when an LCMS congregation calls a pastor, it is calling him to be the local bishop. When we think of it in this way, it is consistent with the early church’s method of selecting their bishop from among themselves and confirming the selection with the laying on of hands by the surrounding bishops.

Apparently, in the LC-MS, individual congregations – of inferior authority – can also dismiss someone to whom they have previously extended a call. We know from Scripture that sheep need a shepherd, but I konw of no flock of sheep in Scripture that got to choose who that shepherd would be!

This is not a good example, as the pastor in question was found guilty of abandoning his call - both by the congregation and by his ecclesiastical supervisors. It was his circuit counselor and district president (equivalent of bishop) who, as representatives of the church, ultimately asked for his resignation.

 

[ufamtobie]

You come from a false impression. We believe the Catholic Church is part of Christ’s Church, and its members are Christian. What we reject is some of the errors the CC teaches.
As for AS, Melanchthon, in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, explains why it matters, why it is important to us.

Jon

Jon, above you say: “We believe the Catholic Church is part of Christ’s Church, and its members are Christian”. JonNC, Jesus Christ did not say on this Rock I will build Parts of my churches.

The Catholic Church is the sole Christian Church that Jesus Built on this One Rock.

Jon what do you mean “Part”? in order to believe in “part” then you must feel the the Original Rock that Jesus Christ Built His Church on, has cracked in to “Parts”.

JonNC, the only error here is that you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, that is the error. There can not be no Error in the Catholic Church Teachings, to say so that there is an error, you are saying Jesus Christ is a liar. Did not Jesus Christ say “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”?

**Jon, you always talk about the teaching errors in the Catholic Church, what are your Lutheran churches teaching errors?

And why does not these errors that your Lutheran church, not lead you, Home to the Catholic Church?**

JonNC, you perhaps were born into a Lutheran church and you feel, if God brought me up Lutheran, then this is where I should be. God has also brought you to this Catholic Website where you are now a “Forum Master” to know the truth about the Catholic Christian Church built on Rock, where you should now be, in full Communion with the Holy See. Amen

JonNC, does the “NC” stand for Non-Catholic? If so, I can’t wait for you to change it to JonRC “RC” stands for Roman Catholic:thumbsup:

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

To further Christian unity, Lutherans are increasingly adopting Apostolic Succession as the norm.

EvangelCatholic,

The Definition of “Adopting”

a. To take and follow (a course of action, for example) by choice or assent: adopt a new technique.
b. To take up and make one’s own: adopt a new idea.
3. To take on or** assume**: adopted an air of importance.
4. To vote to accept: adopt a resolution.
5. To choose as standard or required in a course:

EvangelCatholic, a man made church cannot adopt “Apostolic Succession” and then say we Have the Real Apostolic Succession in our Protestant Lutheran church.

for that matter any one today can start their own Protestant church and adopt the Apostolic Succession and then say we have the real Apostolic Succession, come and join us. Non Sense.

EvangelCatholic F.Y.I. This is how you truly know you have the Real Apostolic Succession, not an adoptive one, it is when you have a Pope guiding His Flock!

Got “Pope” You Got Apostolic Succession. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

To further Christian unity, Lutherans are increasingly adopting Apostolic Succession as the norm.

EvangelCatholic,

The Definition of “Adopting”

a. To take and follow (a course of action, for example) by choice or assent: adopt a new technique.
b. To take up and make one’s own: adopt a new idea.
3. To take on or** assume**: adopted an air of importance.
4. To vote to accept: adopt a resolution.
5. To choose as standard or required in a course:

EvangelCatholic, a man made church cannot adopt “Apostolic Succession” and then say we Have the Real Apostolic Succession in our Protestant Lutheran church.

for that matter any one today can start their own Protestant church and adopt the Apostolic Succession and then say we have the real Apostolic Succession, come and join us. Non Sense.

EvangelCatholic F.Y.I. This is how you truly know you have the Real Apostolic Succession, not an adoptive one, it is when you have a Pope guiding His Flock!

Got “Pope” You Got Apostolic Succession. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;11150690]Jon, above you say: “We believe the Catholic Church is part of Christ’s Church, and its members are Christian”. JonNC, Jesus Christ did not say on this Rock I will build Parts of my churches.
Agreed, but tell me again why the Bishop of Rome is in schism with the other patriarchs.

The Catholic Church is the sole Christian Church that Jesus Built on this One Rock.

Orthodoxy makes the same claim.

Jon what do you mean “Part”? in order to believe in “part” then you must feel the the Original Rock that Jesus Christ Built His Church on, has cracked in to “Parts”.

That’s exactly the case. Because of human sin, Christ’s Church Militant faces division and schism. The great Samuel Stone hymn expresses the sad division of the Church (singular)

The Church’s one foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation
By water and the Word.
From heaven He came and sought her
To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died.

She is from every nation,
Yet one o’er all the earth;
Her charter of salvation,
One Lord, one faith, one birth;
One holy Name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,
With every grace endued.

The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end:
Though there be those who hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against both foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail.

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed:
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song!

JonNC, the only error here is that you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, that is the error. There can not be no Error in the Catholic Church Teachings, to say so that there is an error, you are saying Jesus Christ is a liar. Did not Jesus Christ say “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”?

The gates of Hell have not prevailed and never will. For the gates of Hell to prevail, the entire Church would fall, including the Church Triumphant. This is a prediction for Parousia, not a discussion by Christ on any particular time.

you are saying Jesus Christ is a liar.

Honestly, this is one of the most obnoxious and frankly, shallow arguments made by triumphalists, of any communion. Beyond that, it deserves no response.

**Jon, you always talk about the teaching errors in the Catholic Church, what are your Lutheran churches teaching errors?

And why does not these errors that your Lutheran church, not lead you, Home to the Catholic Church?**

One makes the decision, and Catholics do make this decision, to accept on faith the teachings of Christ as presented by a given communion, be it Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise. If, in fact, there are errors in the Lutheran Confessions, then I depend on God’s grace, just as Catholics will be dependent on God’s grace if there is error there.

JonNC, you perhaps were born into a Lutheran church and you feel, if God brought me up Lutheran, then this is where I should be. God has also brought you to this Catholic Website where you are now a “Forum Master” to know the truth about the Catholic Christian Church built on Rock, where you should now be, in full Communion with the Holy See. Amen

Indeed He has,

Jon

JonNC, does the “NC” stand for Non-Catholic? If so, I can’t wait for you to change it to JonRC “RC” stands for Roman Catholic:thumbsup:

No. It stands for North Carolina.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic,

The Definition of “Adopting”

a. To take and follow (a course of action, for example) by choice or assent: adopt a new technique.
b. To take up and make one’s own: adopt a new idea.
3. To take on or** assume**: adopted an air of importance.
4. To vote to accept: adopt a resolution.
5. To choose as standard or required in a course:

EvangelCatholic, a man made church cannot adopt “Apostolic Succession” and then say we Have the Real Apostolic Succession in our Protestant Lutheran church.

for that matter any one today can start their own Protestant church and adopt the Apostolic Succession and then say we have the real Apostolic Succession, come and join us. Non Sense.

EvangelCatholic F.Y.I. This is how you truly know you have the Real Apostolic Succession, not an adoptive one, it is when you have a Pope guiding His Flock!

Got “Pope” You Got Apostolic Succession. Amen

Ufam Tobie

Ufan Tobie.

With all due respect, I certainly do not take the word of a laymen/women over the very utterances of the Pope. You may have opinions of Lutherans that thankfully don’t reflect the position of the Roman Catholic Church and regrettably place you outside the Church teaching/ empathy.

 

[ufamtobie]

Agreed, but tell me again why the Bishop of Rome is in schism with the other patriarchs.

JonNC,

Definition of “Schism” a split or division between strongly opposed sections or parties, caused by differences in opinion or belief. JonNC, How can the first Church that ever was be in schism with others, all others are in schism with the Catholic Church? Orthodox Church split, they do not have the Pope.

Orthodoxy makes the same claim.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

With all due respect, I certainly do not take the word of a laymen/women over the very utterances of the Pope. You may have opinions of Lutherans that thankfully don’t reflect the position of the Roman Catholic Church and regrettably place you outside the Church teaching/ empathy.

EvangelCatholic, The utterance of the Pope, is for all non Catholics including Lutherans to come Home, walk themselves into a Catholic Church talk to a priest and start the process to become a member of the Only Church Christ established, but this kind of utterance of the Pope you don’t want to hear, only that which you choose to hear.

Until The Pope has welcomed the Lutherans Home then I will welcome the Lutheran Home, but that has not happened.

With all due respect, You are not in full Communion with the Holy See, this regrettably places you outside of the Only Church Jesus Christ Built on Rock.

EvangelCatholic I want you to be in full communion with the Catholic Church and I want this as of yesterday, for tomorrow may be too late.

Ufam Tobie

 

[commenter]

I am Catholic, support every Pope from Peter through Francis, but also have learned a great deal from my fellow Christians on this forum from other communions. I encourage the Lutherans and others on this forum to keep sharing their ideas, and we will try to respond in a Catholic spirit of ecumenism (with the caveat, that I am always right of course).

This is my favorite forum! If you think friendliness doesn’t go with doctrinal orthodoxy, you haven’t been following our new pope!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic, The utterance of the Pope, is for all non Catholics including Lutherans to come Home, walk themselves into a Catholic Church talk to a priest and start the process to become a member of the Only Church Christ established, but this kind of utterance of the Pope you don’t want to hear, only that which you choose to hear.

Until The Pope has welcomed the Lutherans Home then I will welcome the Lutheran Home, but that has not happened.

With all due respect, You are not in full Communion with the Holy See, this regrettably places you outside of the Only Church Jesus Christ Built on Rock.

EvangelCatholic I want you to be in full communion with the Catholic Church and I want this as of yesterday, for tomorrow may be too late.

Ufam Tobie

This is pointlessly cruel on both of our parts; forgive my condensing tone.

But, we, at least, have to acknowledge the reality of current Lutheran/ Catholic relations rather than argue points that are not even relevant. I find it odd that some Catholics don’t welcome others. On Lutheran sites, anyone interested in becoming a Lutheran are treated as royalty.

 

[jimkhong]

This is pointlessly cruel on both of our parts; forgive my condensing tone.

But, we, at least, have to acknowledge the reality of current Lutheran/ Catholic relations rather than argue points that are not even relevant. I find it odd that some Catholics don’t welcome others. On Lutheran sites, anyone interested in becoming a Lutheran are treated as royalty.

Just as one sparrow doesn’t make a summer, one post-er (or even a number of them) doesn’t make a Catholic Church.

 

[ufamtobie]

This is pointlessly cruel on both of our parts; forgive my condensing tone.

But, we, at least, have to acknowledge the reality of current Lutheran/ Catholic relations rather than argue points that are not even relevant. I find it odd that some Catholics don’t welcome others. On Lutheran sites, anyone interested in becoming a Lutheran are treated as royalty.

EvangelCatholic,

What is pointless and cruel in my part, is it for me wanting you to come Home to the Catholic Church?

If it were not for Martin Luther, you would be Catholic now. Am I not correct in saying so?

EvangelCatholic, “treated as royalty” is no where close to being Royalty.

Enough Come HOME!

Ufam Tobie