Lutheran church-Missori Synod/ Close to Catholic

[spiritchsr1]

If you walk into a Misouri Synod Lutheran Church, you might think you are attending a Catholic Mass. Their Divine Service I & II, are identical in the parts of the Service to the Catholic Mass. Only the Meaning and Doctrine behind it are different. You can’t even tell what church you are in except for the fact that the person conducting the Service is a Minister and not a Priest.

I was amazed the first time I stepped into a Missori Synod Lutheran Church. They are very conservative in their beliefs and stick very close to the Bible.

Spiritchsr1

 

[Ryniev]

A traditional Lutheran Service is very close to a Catholic Mass. However, more and more Lutheran Churches are going to the ultra contemporary type services to be “relevant” and “seeker friendly”

Check out this website for a big Lutheran Church. It’s got the counseling center, coffee house, bookstore etc. In addition to formal services in the Sanctuary you can also do an interactive service at 9:04 or 10:34 in a warehouse. I know several people that have left that church (2 in RCIA) and have told me that the Pastor is building a ginormous starter castle to live in.

stjohns-network.org/Worship-Opportunities.htm

The Tuesday night worship in a bar sounds like fun though.

 

[puzzleannie]

My sister and her husband joined a LMS church as a compromise between her Catholic and his Baptist beliefs (no children) and she sings in the choir. Her main reason was music, she could not bear what happened to liturgical music in the Catholic Church just as she was finishing her MFA. The music in her church is far more traditional and conforms to what we knew as children. Not the best reason, but her reason.

I have attended her church when I am in town, usually because she has a solo or to enjoy the beautiful traditional building, that puts modern Catholic churches built after the 60s to shame. One thing I have heard repeatedly from her pastor in preaching is that their service is not a Mass, there is no Mass, there is no sacrifice, and that through the faith of the people united, but through no special words or actions of his own, when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper that Christ is present in a real, mystical way but not in any physical sense whatever. He stresses that Christ is present through grace, because the gathered people are celebrating this memorial, that he is sacramentally (thorugh grace) present in the bread and wine, which still remain bread and wine.

I have no idea whether that represents his personal theology or LMS doctrinal statements.

 

[mylo]

puzzleannie:

One thing I have heard repeatedly from her pastor in preaching is that their service is not a Mass, there is no Mass, there is no sacrifice, and that through the faith of the people united, but through no special words or actions of his own, when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper that Christ is present in a real, mystical way but not in any physical sense whatever. He stresses that Christ is present through grace, because the gathered people are celebrating this memorial, that he is sacramentally (thorugh grace) present in the bread and wine, which still remain bread and wine.

I have no idea whether that represents his personal theology or LMS doctrinal statements.

I was raised LCMS, and that’s pretty much what I was taught. Still unsure if that is Official Doctrinal Statements (and my Lutheran Catechism is AWOL )

 

[ben_dy]

puzzleannie:

My sister and her husband joined a LMS church as a compromise between her Catholic and his Baptist beliefs (no children) and she sings in the choir. Her main reason was music, she could not bear what happened to liturgical music in the Catholic Church just as she was finishing her MFA. The music in her church is far more traditional and conforms to what we knew as children. Not the best reason, but her reason.

I have attended her church when I am in town, usually because she has a solo or to enjoy the beautiful traditional building, that puts modern Catholic churches built after the 60s to shame. One thing I have heard repeatedly from her pastor in preaching is that their service is not a Mass, there is no Mass, there is no sacrifice, and that through the faith of the people united, but through no special words or actions of his own, when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper that Christ is present in a real, mystical way but not in any physical sense whatever. He stresses that Christ is present through grace, because the gathered people are celebrating this memorial, that he is sacramentally (thorugh grace) present in the bread and wine, which still remain bread and wine.

I have no idea whether that represents his personal theology or LMS doctrinal statements.

I thought that the ‘traditional’ Lutheran take on the Eucharist was a Real Presence but through consubstantiation and not transubstantiation. A ‘coexistence’ of bread and wine with Blood and Body… that may be particular to the most popular ‘flavor’ of Luther’s Lutheranism, though, and not as the ‘Missouri Synod’? Although with the name ‘Luther’ in the title… I have to wonder if there’s not some fast and loose theology with the pastor (although he is getting the doctrine at least half right, I suppose/

 

[catsrus]

I once worked with a woman who, along with her husband was LCMS. We got along well until the subject of religion came up. I steered clear of the subject whenever possible because she was virulently anti-Catholic.
Same with an episcopalian I worked with. She was worse though and always tried to bait me.

 

[BillyT92679]

The Lutherans closest to Catholicism are in the Nordic countries… some even have statues of Our Blessed Lady!

As close as it might be, it’s still a Protestant ecclesial community without valid Sacraments or Apostolic Succession.

 

[carol_marie]

The services may be similar but the beliefs are not.

My children attended a MS Lutheran School for years. They were taught the 3 “Solas” - Bible alone - saved by Grace alone… and what was the 3rd one? I can’t recall. They were taught that the Catholic Church was totally corrupt and that Martin Luther was a true hero for saving Christians from the lies of the Catholic Church.

My oldest son has had a hard time coming to grips with our family’s newfound Catholic Faith. He’s constatly asking me, “Where is THAT in the Bible?” also… he truly believes that it doesn’t matter what a person does in his life - so long as he was baptized… he is marked with the cross forever & will go to heaven.

Also - the whole Mary thing. Way different.

But having said that, when I asked our Lutheran Pastor if he thought the Pope was the anti-Christ (according to the LCMS website) he said that was the stupidest thing… of course not.

 

[mylo]

carol marie - is the third one faith alone?

I was also taught the evils of the Catholic Church (and the Mormons, Buddhists, etc). Looking back, I just thought it was my pastor’s personal views and not really representative of the LCMS. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

 

[JSmitty2005]

From what I’ve heard about the Missouri Synod, they seem to be the most loyal to Luther. Because of their loyalty to him, they seem Catholic (some even pray the rosary), but in fact, they are probably the most anti-Catholic of all Lutherans. They even condemned the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification on their website.

 

[carol_marie]

mylo:

carol marie - is the third one faith alone?

I was also taught the evils of the Catholic Church (and the Mormons, Buddhists, etc). Looking back, I just thought it was my pastor’s personal views and not really representative of the LCMS. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

Yes…you are right… I believe it is Faith alone.

 

[ben_dy]

BillyT92679:

The Lutherans closest to Catholicism are in the Nordic countries… some even have statues of Our Blessed Lady!

As close as it might be, it’s still a Protestant ecclesial community without valid Sacraments or Apostolic Succession.

Gosh, it doesn’t seem that way in Sweden! I had the pleasure of spending some time with Bishop Arborelius of Stockholm a number of months back and learning how, with immigration, the Catholic population is almost BOOMING in the late 1990’s (and continues with some slow growth) even though, until recently, the Lutheran religion was the official state religion (now it’s simply the “national” religion - not the ‘official state religion’ any longer, I suppose) and I found the few Lutheran churches that I did visit rather austere: a very different experience than the older Lutheran churches in, for instance, Germany.

Never stepped inside a Lutheran church in Norway, however… are they as well appointed as some Catholic churches in Europe?

 

[ben_dy]

JSmitty2005:

From what I’ve heard about the Missouri Synod, they seem to be the most loyal to Luther. Because of their loyalty to him, they seem Catholic (some even pray the rosary), but in fact, they are probably the most anti-Catholic of all Lutherans. They even condemned the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification on their website.

It seems as if they were ‘loyal to Luther’ they would accept his idea of the Real Presence via consubstantiation: do you know if they do? Or not?

 

[David_Zampino]

spiritchsr1:

If you walk into a Misouri Synod Lutheran Church, you might think you are attending a Catholic Mass. Their Divine Service I & II, are identical in the parts of the Service to the Catholic Mass. Only the Meaning and Doctrine behind it are different. You can’t even tell what church you are in except for the fact that the person conducting the Service is a Minister and not a Priest.

I was amazed the first time I stepped into a Missori Synod Lutheran Church. They are very conservative in their beliefs and stick very close to the Bible.

Spiritchsr1

The LCMS is (by far) the largest of the conservative Lutheran bodies. The communion service is similar in many respects – but not all. Luther (and the LCMS) believed in the Real Presence – but NOT in the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This is reflected in the text of the Eucharistic prayers.

The LCMS is indeed quite conservative, indeed, borderline fundamentalist in some respects. They practice “closed communion” even with reference to other Lutheran bodies; and they represented the extreme minority viewpoint among world-wide Lutheranism in their REJECTION of the Joint Statement on Justification signed by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation. They tend toward a rejection of ecumenism – even positive ecumenism – and “officially” they still teach “Whore of Babylon” theology with regard to the Pope and the Catholic Church.

Blessings,

 

[puzzleannie]

I of course never receive communion in my sister’s church, but I recall that in their worship aid was a notice that those not admitted to their communion could not receive with them, but they were welcome to join as Christians in prayer together. I only visit infrequently so I do not know if they have a communion service weekly. but the beauty of the music, so close to what I remember from childhood when our Catholic parish, of German origin, had 3 superb choirs. It makes it worthwhile to go to her neighborhood Catholic parish on Saturday night, used to be just vilely performed insipid folk rock, but now with a new pastor is hip hop-rap style, utterly ghastly.

 

[JSmitty2005]

ben_dy:

It seems as if they were ‘loyal to Luther’ they would accept his idea of the Real Presence via consubstantiation: do you know if they do? Or not?

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=6629

 

[nucatholic]

Don’t tell a LCMS member that they are really close to Catholic! You will get an ear full. My ex-g/f’s father is the VP of the LCMS denomination. Yes they have a president and vice president…The divine services might look similar but the understanding behind them are very different. The Pope (not individual Popes, but the understanding of the Pope) is the anti-Christ. Although they do have a general confession at the divine service and the pastor forgives them in the name of the church. I thought that was interesting…I think if they could get past their prejudice, they might just end up converting to Catholicism in droves. Once someone decides to take an honest look at Catholicism without a clouded mind and opinion, everything starts to fall into place. I know thats how it happened with me. I have lots of LCMS friends and I think they would all convert if they could just forget everything they have been taught about Catholicism since they were little.

 

[TinaK]

As a current member of the LCMS, yes, we do have a lot in common with the Catholic Church. We have the full liturgy, but only in some churches. Many are headed down the general protestant path so praise teams and crummy music is the norm. (Thank God the praise team at my church croaked. At least for now.) We believe in the Real Presence (at least we should), but consubstantiation, not transubstantiation. The pope issue is well-covered in the Book of Concord (available online as a free download). The BoC pretty well tells you everything you need to know about being Lutheran.
That said, if you are church searching, I advise you to be very very careful about going LCMS. I am a lifer — life-long member — my grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, even some of my great-great-great grandparents were members of the synod. The synod is sinking like the Titanic. For example, there is a lawsuit going on right now about violations of Missouri law in some of the things that the synod president has done. (In order for the synod to function under Missouri law it is considered to be a corporation ---- and it is being run as one. The Jesus First website has info on it. Daystar probably does too.) The neighborhood friendly confessional church is being replaced by mega-churches (see King of Kings’ website). I have heard that many pastors are being forced to leave. I know of several who were forced out, (and one who managed to stay but lost a good chunk of the congregation.) Many churches are setting themselves up with a board of directors and business managers. My church is talking about needing a business manager. (I walk out the day the voter’s assembly goes. Oh wait, I’ve already walked out – over the praise team. ) My whole point is, good luck if you’re looking into the synod. What it is today, isn’t what it is going to be tomorrow. :crying:
Hmmm, didn’t Jesus promise the gates of hell wouldn’t overcome His Church?

The three “solas” — Sola Scriptura, Sola Fides, Sola Gratia — Scripture alone, Faith alone, Grace alone.

Sorry for the rant. I love my church, but it is self-destructing as I watch, and I can’t do anything about it. If you’re interested, I talked a little bit about it here as well.

TinaK

 

[JSmitty2005]

TinaK:

Hmmm, didn’t Jesus promise the gates of hell wouldn’t overcome His Church?

Indeed He did, but I don’t think He established the LCMS.

TinaK:

The three “solas” — Sola Scriptura, Sola Fides, Sola Gratia — Scripture alone, Faith alone, Grace alone.

Sola Scriptura is just plain dumb. Read this article. As far as Fides and Gratia, didn’t we straighten that out in the JDDJ?

(From your other post)
Most of the time I find I’m not really Lutheran and not really Catholic but some sort of weird hybrid in the middle.

Haha!

 

[oat_soda]

Sorry for the rant. I love my church, but it is self-destructing as I watch, and I can’t do anything about it. If you’re interested, I talked a little bit about it here as well.

that is too bad. we catholics are suffering too. i would say that evangelical mega-churches are going to break down as well. they have to cater to the american way of life which is about convenience and individuality. in this way, america and protestanism are created for one another. it is all about having that personal relationship with God so that you don’t need to go to church on the weekends or belong to an “organized” religion. in fact i just read an article about how this mega-church doesn’t have christimas services because people feel by spending time with their families they are doing just as well.

but i think secularism and this relativism will not satisfy that whole in our souls for God. eventually, people will come back, or at least a remnant will still hold on to the faith that God promised will be preserved and handed down faithfully throughout the generations.