Lutheran Communion- Valid?

[gcnuss]

gcnuss:

I still haven’t had time to put together my own satisfactory answer, so for now I’m going to “cheat” and link you out to a website which begins the process of laying the foundation for what I posted earlier.

God bless,

therealpresence.org/eucharst/holycom/sacrament_of_communion.htm

Crazzeto,

Thanks for the link. I have read through it and will go back to read it again. Needless to say, there are parts of it that raise questions for me. I have no doubt, however, that it reflects Catholic teaching about Holy Communion.

 

[JonNC]

=Oldtimer_7;7637995]Jon, Lutherans do not even share communion with each other. We have open communion in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Some former members visited a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod church while traveling and were told they could take communion as long as they weren’t Missouri Synod. And WELS is more conservative than LC-MS.

Yes, it seems we are divided by a common confession, to steal a phrase. That said, I was raised LCA/ELCA, and when we moved to NC, the LCMS parish we are now members of was the only Lutheran parish in the area. When we went to visit for the first time, the pastor, upon our request, invited us to commune. It seems, amusingly, that the further a Lutheran is from St. Louis and Chicago, the more open and alike we become.

When the ELCA was in talks about full communion with the Episcopal Church, the validity of communion was part of the issue of the validity of ordination, since the American branch of Lutheranism broke with apostolic succession early in its history.

Well, actually, I think most American Lutherans brought that brake with AS with them, except perhaps for the Scandinavian Lutherans. I was on our parish’s committee regarding the Concordat at that time, and I remember well the discussions regarding the re-introduction, through Episcopal lines, of AS. As I recall, it was, in some quarters, controversial. I never understood why it should have been considering the Confession’s support of it.

I wonder if your parents still have the Baptist mindset about communion as an ordinance or if they have become Hyper-Lutherans, like so many converts do.
Cradle Lutherans and Cradle Catholics seem to be a lot more relaxed about all this than the converts.

Not sure what you mean by hyper-Lutherans, but I certainly agree with your last comment. I’m not so tied to close communion, as least regarding other Lutherans, as the LCMS is. And our congregation’s communion statement invites all who believe in the real presence to commune, after speaking to the pastor or one of the elders.

Jon

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Jon, you and I are both far enough from the centers of power for me to say that I agree with you, certainly more than the current leadership of the ELCA. What holds me in the ELCA is my home congregation, which sponsored my mother and me as refugees after WWII (and long before the ELCA) and some of whom have known me since I was a child.

What I meant by Hyper-Lutherans is the enthusiasm that is shown by new converts to any faith. I could as easily have said Hyper-Methodists or Hyper-Presbyterians. This is in comparison to those of us who have always been in the church. I think of my friends Cornelius and Nancy. He grew up Catholic, and she converted after they married. I asked Cornelius a question about Catholicism once and he said, “Ask Nancy. I didn’t have to learn all that…” (Cornelius was a sailor, so you can probably imagine the rest of the quote).

 

[JonNC]

=Oldtimer_7;7641538]Jon, you and I are both far enough from the centers of power for me to say that I agree with you, certainly more than the current leadership of the ELCA. What holds me in the ELCA is my home congregation, which sponsored my mother and me as refugees after WWII (and long before the ELCA) and some of whom have known me since I was a child.

These are the kinds of things that caution me to think strongly before I comment about the ELCA. As I said, I was raised there by an LCA pastor. My brother, despite the decidedly liberal movement, remains ELCA because of the local parish he is a member of.
He also speaks out against the trend, both in his words, and in his pattern of giving.

What I meant by Hyper-Lutherans is the enthusiasm that is shown by new converts to any faith. I could as easily have said Hyper-Methodists or Hyper-Presbyterians. This is in comparison to those of us who have always been in the church. I think of my friends Cornelius and Nancy. He grew up Catholic, and she converted after they married. I asked Cornelius a question about Catholicism once and he said, “Ask Nancy. I didn’t have to learn all that…” (Cornelius was a sailor, so you can probably imagine the rest of the quote).

Gottcha.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

These are the kinds of things that caution me to think strongly before I comment about the ELCA. As I said, I was raised there by an LCA pastor. My brother, despite the decidedly liberal movement, remains ELCA because of the local parish he is a member of.
He also speaks out against the trend, both in his words, and in his pattern of giving.

Gottcha.

Jon

Lot of Lutherans I have grown to have great deal of repect for. Jon is one of them

 

[JonNC]

Lot of Lutherans I have grown to have great deal of repect for. Jon is one of them

The feelings are mutual, Gary. Thanks.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Dittoes to the sentiments toward Jon. Except for being a Phillies fan, the guy’s awesome!

The feelings are mutual, Gary. Thanks.

Jon

 

[Alix1912]

I was raised in MS in the 60’s and never even knew there were other denominations in the Lutheran Church. I remember it as being a very formal, strict chuch. At that time and in the early '70s the Catholic Church my friends went to seemed more informal with their “folk masses” and all.

When I joined the ECLA in my early 30’s my pastor told me MS and ECLA were two different denominations and very far apart in some of their beliefs.

Absolutely! The ECLA changes things so fast it makes your head spin, just one reason I am going home to the Catholic Church I was baptized in. One example, deciding to give communion to everyone even babies, and offering apple juice and gluten free bread along with/instead of wine and bread.I know many would say it’s biblical to offer it to infants and this is just one small example of changes. After much reading, thinking and finally attending RCIA, I have come to believe in the fullness of faith found in the CC. I’m also seem to be getting more traditional the older I get. But that’s just me.

**

Yeah, that’s why I stick to my LCMS church.

I think even the Catholics do first communion a little early. I can understand wine with no achohol in it, maybe even grape juice or gluten free bread (apparently my mom’s congregation has a couple deathly allergic people in it), but apple juice…Come On. You might as well serve pepsi and dorritos like the Super Bowl Commercial.

I really have issues with the fact that anything seems to go in the ELCA. Some churches could give the WELS a run for their money on being conservative and other’s don;t even look Lutheran at all they are so liberal. You never know.

I really have issues with the Gay/Lesbian thing. A good friend is a ELCA Lutheran and living together with her fiancee. She was apprached by the pastor about the situation and responded…Hey if committed Gay couples can do it why not committed Hetrosexual couples. It’s a mess.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I pray for the day when there will be a Particular Lutheran (Evangelical Catholic) Church in communion with Rome.

They will truly enrich the entire Church.

Alex

 

[gcnuss]

Dear Rev. Pastor,

Thank you for your contribution!

I was wondering if you could enlighten me about the “High Church” Lutheran movement. Do they venerate saints or say the Rosary?

The person of Jan Hus is important in Slavic history (as he is in the Czech Republic and the early Lutherans regarded him as a saint, as you know).

I once wrote an Eastern service to him for private use for some Hussites who entered the Catholic Church and a German Lutheran pastor put parts of that same service (in which Hus is directly invoked as a saint would be) to music in German and he has told me that it was in temporary use in some German Lutheran parishes.

I’m just trying to understand the Lutheran veneration of saints within the various traditions within Lutheranism.

Thank you.

Alex

I’m sorry to be slow in replying to you.

My familiarity with the “high church” movement within Lutheranism is limited. Of course, that depends on what one calls “high church.” From my perspective, it entails a reverence for worship which retains much of the Western Tradition in its liturgy. Holy Communion is regularly celebrated and the form of the service closely parallels the Mass.

I’m not aware of any Lutherans who venerate the saints as Catholics do. However, we do look to the saints as examples of the holy life and celebrate their faithfulness. I can speak only from an American (USA) point of view as I am unfamiliar with particularly European practices.

 

[CMatt25]

Missouri Synod has closed communion. They do not allow non-LCMS to receive communion in their church.

I know Jon and others say they practice closed. But here’s one I found googling that allows visitors to receive communion as long as they believe the Savior Jesus is really present and that with the bread and wine His true body and blood is received.

“Visitors: if your share these beliefs with us, you are welcome to the Communion rail.”

sonlifelutheran.org/communion.html

Alix said though not all adhere to synod policy so perhaps this is such a case.

 

[dcointin]

Crazzeto,

I have a problem with what I have bolded in your statement above. I understand Holy Communion to be our Lord’s gift of his body and blood to those who follow him. For any church body to claim that one must agree with every jot and tittle of doctrine in order to receive our Lord’s gift seems presumptuous at best. I wonder what our Lord would say if he were present (not simply in the Sacrament itself) when someone was refused the Sacrament because they were not in “full visible communion” with the church at which the Sacrament was offered even if they believed that they truly would be receiving his body and blood.

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

“St. Justin Martyr, First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

St. Justin establishes three criteria for reception of the Eucharist:

1. Agreement with the faith of the Church
2. Baptized
3. Living a moral life

While he doesn’t address the question of union with the visible Church, that concept is addressed in many other fathers. What I would emphasize here is that his criteria are more strict than the ones you proposed. Keep in mind that St. Justin is one of the earliest witnesses we have to the early Church’s liturgy and understanding of the eucharist. I would personally be very careful about disregarding his teaching.

 

[dcointin]

Here is another quotation, this time regarding the necessity of union with the Church for the Eucharist.

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

St. Igantius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

Keep in mind that this was written about 20 years after the death of the apostle St. John, and personally heard him preach.

 

[Luvtosew]

Ok I understand the CC has closed communion, always knew that being a Catholic but why can’t the OP engage in the Lords Supper at her Moms Baptist Church, I mean for them its spiritually symbolic so what harm is there for the OP to engage? I just don’t understand it, what would it hurt.?

 

[CMatt25]

Ok I understand the CC has closed communion, always knew that being a Catholic but why can’t the OP engage in the Lords Supper at her Moms Baptist Church, I mean for them its spiritually symbolic so what harm is there for the OP to engage? I just don’t understand it, what would it hurt.?

You get no argument from me on this Luvtosew. Christians communing together is not a bad thing in my book. But they’ll tell you that by doing so the OP would be suggesting he/she was in communion with all of the Baptist church’s beliefs.

 

[JonNC]

I know Jon and others say they practice closed. But here’s one I found googling that allows visitors to receive communion as long as they believe the Savior Jesus is really present and that with the bread and wine His true body and blood is received.

“Visitors: if your share these beliefs with us, you are welcome to the Communion rail.”

sonlifelutheran.org/communion.html

Alix said though not all adhere to synod policy so perhaps this is such a case.

Actually, the LCMS practices “close” communion. Effectively, the intent is similar, but the local parish has some leeway in the matter. For example, when we first moved to the area, we were ELCA and there was only an LCMS parish nearby. After a brief meeting with the pastor, he willingly allowed us to commune.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

You get no argument from me on this Luvtosew. Christians communing together is not a bad thing in my book. But they’ll tell you that by doing so the OP would be suggesting he/she was in communion with all of the Baptist church’s beliefs.

A Missouri Synod Lutheran would tell you essentially the same thing.

Jon

 

[here_i_stand]

Jon, Lutherans do not even share communion with each other. We have open communion in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Some former members visited a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod church while traveling and were told they could take communion as long as they weren’t Missouri Synod. And WELS is more conservative than LC-MS.

Rainalaska, you did right both by LC-MS standards and Catholic ones.

I agree that Rainalaska did the absolute correct thing by not communing, and others have addressed that adequately. As a WELS member, I have to say that the incident above (allowing non-WELS members to communion) is very rare, and would be greatly frowned upon by the Synod as a whole.

 

[hn160]

Actually, the LCMS practices “close” communion. Effectively, the intent is similar, but the local parish has some leeway in the matter. For example, when we first moved to the area, we were ELCA and there was only an LCMS parish nearby. After a brief meeting with the pastor, he willingly allowed us to commune.

Jon

You were lucky Jon, we were ELCA also when we moved to California, we were looking for a church, we made the decision to leave the ELCA, the pastor of the LC-MS church that we attend would not allow to commune until we had five meetings with him as to our beliefs and how we were catechized. He wanted a letter from our former pastor as to our standing in our former church. Usually, he requires non LC-MS Christians to attend a eight week We Believe and Confess course and if you believe in the Lutheran Confessions and the teachings of the Missouri Synod you are allowed to commune.

 

[Captain_America]

The Lutheran communion is a reenactment, and it is not the Holy Eucharist. That’s what Catholics have. I won’t take Lutheran communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to my faith.