Lutheran communion

[JonNC]

=steido01;12563681]Wrong, friend. Jon has already explained that Lutherans condemn the error of Receptionism. Here’s more on why, and how, Lutherans ought to practice. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition, pertaining to the proper disposal of the elements, typically done via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium:

If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains, they can be disposed of in a number of ways. The best way is to consume the remaining elements, since the Lord said, “Take and eat … Take and drink,” and did not provide for anything that was left over. There is historic precedent for reserving the remaining elements against the next communion. The hosts can be stored in a pyx or ciborium (apart from unconsecrated hosts), the blood of the Lord in a suitable cruet or flagon (apart from unconsecrated wine). What remains in the chalice, however, should either be consumed or poured into the piscine or onto the ground, since there may be crumbs or other foreign matter in it. The reserved elements may then be kept in the sacristy or placed on the altar or credence and covered with a white veil. It is un-Lutheran and irreverent to place unused elements in the trash or to pour the remainder of what is in the chalice or flagon into the common drain.​

Hi Don,
Significant to the heterodox teaching of receptionism is the very first sentence in your quote: If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains… * Note that it does not say, If any of the bread and wine remains.*

Jon

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Thank you to everyone for the explanations.

JonNC, your explanation makes the most sense to me, but is it unique to LCMS? Do the beliefs regarding communion vary between LCMS, ELCA, and others? I know LCMS has a closed communion, but does that mean that other branches of Lutherans more casual regarding communion?

 

[Thorolfr]

From the Augsburg Confession:

Clearly the teaching is distributed, not just receptionism. The body and blood are distributed.

Jon

According to the Wittenburg Concordia, an agreement signed in 1536 by Luther, Melanchton and other Lutherans along with theologians from the Reformed churches such as Martin Bucer:

Although they do not believe in a transubstantiation, that is, in an essential transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood, and they do not hold that the body and blood of Christ are localiter, that is, spatially enclosed in the bread or are permanently united in some other way apart from reception in the sacrament, they nevertheless admit that through the sacramental union the bread is the body of Christ, etc. For apart from reception – for example, when the bread is laid aside and kept in the tabernacle or carried about and put on display in the procession, as happens in the papacy – the body of Christ is not present.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have never been present when communion is cleaned up so I guess I can’t answer you there however I do see a few issues that could arise.

Of course we want to treat the LORD’s body and blood with reverence, but somewhere you have to draw a line.

We could lick out the little cups, but there would be minute particles left inside. How to dispose of this because we cant have a million acres to store this stuff in.

Wash and dump- in the drain to the sewer? now that would be insulting.

One could even go so far as to state the obvious… the body and blood goes into this SINNERS body is digested by gastric acids and is converted into waste materials that ends up in the sewer (or septic system in my case)…

It’s kind of an argument that really can go on and on forever if you want it to.

Well, not necessarily. Here’s what we do:

1. Use a common cup. There are five used in my church, for example, and one of those is only used by the priest. He cleans his own chalice at the altar before the end of mass, so that leaves four. Those cups are usually pretty empty by the time the last communicant receives, but the Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister is responsible for consuming what is left before leaving the altar.
2. The chalices are carefully washed by the priest after mass. Every Catholic Church has a special sink that drains directly into the earth and is not connected to any other system.
3. Any consecrated hosts which are not consumed are placed into the tabernacle and brought out again at the next mass.
4. Finally, Catholic theology holds that the body and blood of Jesus are present in the Eucharistic elements only as long as the accidents of bread and wine are discernible. Thus, a really, really tiny crumb from a host is no longer discernible as “bread” and therefore, Jesus is no longer present. As for that which you consume, again, once it is no longer possible to recognize the “bread” or “wine” in your stomach, then Jesus is no longer present. That is thought to be about 15 minutes.

 

[JonNC]

Thank you to everyone for the explanations.

JonNC, your explanation makes the most sense to me, but is it unique to LCMS? Do the beliefs regarding communion vary between LCMS, ELCA, and others? I know LCMS has a closed communion, but does that mean that other branches of Lutherans more casual regarding communion?

While not claiming there are differences among synods, I think by and large the positions within the Lutheran tradition are essentially the same. The fear is always when Lutherans become influenced by our protestant friends, who either fail to discern, or choose not to discern the real presence. While there are Anglicans and some Methodists who discern His real presence, the doctrine of the real presence is otherwise distinctive to Lutherans among the protestant communions.

We must be ever vigilant to reject a casual view of the sacraments. They are the means of grace, the very way God has chosen through His Son to bring His grace to us. I suspect that said casualness is often the reason the folks such as “Lutheran Farmer” become “Catholic Farmer”.
To the extent that your Lutheran parish failed to live up the catholicity of the Lutheran tradition, I can’t argue with your decision, or that of other Lutherans who swim the Tiber, or the Bosphorus for that matter.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Hi Don,
Significant to the heterodox teaching of receptionism is the very first sentence in your quote: If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains… Note that it does not say,* If any of the bread and wine remains.*

Jon

:yup: Yep!

My theory is that Receptionists get confused by Paul, since he also calls the Body and Blood the Bread and Wine.

 

[pablope]

According to the Wittenburg Concordia, an agreement signed in 1536 by Luther, Melanchton and other Lutherans along with theologians from the Reformed churches such as Martin Bucer:

Question for you, Thorolfr:

From your posted quote:

Quote:
Although they do not believe in a transubstantiation, that is, in an essential transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood, and they do not hold that the body and blood of Christ are localiter, that is, spatially enclosed in the bread or are permanently united in some other way apart from reception in the sacrament, they nevertheless admit that through the sacramental union the bread is the body of Christ, etc. For apart from reception – for example, when the bread is laid aside and kept in the tabernacle or carried about and put on display in the procession, as happens in the papacy – the body of Christ is not present.

How would Luther and his friends know when the Body of Christ is not present, after consecration?

How could they tell if the body and blood are present or not? Were they given a special knowledge of this by someone of divine nature?

 

[steido01]

How would Luther and his friends know when the Body of Christ is not present, after consecration?

Hi, Pablope! Lutherans do not presume to know, because, as I stated earlier, the problem of “what do we do with the leftovers?” shouldn’t exist in proper Lutheran practice. The instructions Christ gave were “Take, eat.” The instructions were not, “Take, eat, and save some for later.” In the correct scenario, all the Body and Blood is consumed.

Regarding what remains, whatever the case, proper respect ought to be shown for where Christ is/was. I think that’s abundantly clear from my previous post. We wouldn’t have such careful practice, and Luther and our other fathers wouldn’t have gone to such lengths to show this if it weren’t true.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi, Pablope! Lutherans do not presume to know, because, as I stated earlier, the problem of “what do we do with the leftovers?” shouldn’t exist in proper Lutheran practice. The instructions Christ gave were “Take, eat.” The instructions were not, “Take, eat, and save some for later.” In the correct scenario, all the Body and Blood is consumed.

Wait a second, Don.

Jesus said, “Take and eat, this is my body, etc.” to the disciples in the Upper Room. But He didn’t actually specify when the eating had to be done, did He?

Now, on the night of the Last Supper, the Apostles left immediately for the Mount of Olives. Were there “leftovers”? We don’t know.

But what we do know is that His instructions for the future were: “Do this”.

We do.

 

[JonNC]

Wait a second, Don.

Jesus said, “Take and eat, this is my body, etc.” to the disciples in the Upper Room. But He didn’t actually specify when the eating had to be done, did He?

Now, on the night of the Last Supper, the Apostles left immediately for the Mount of Olives. Were there “leftovers”? We don’t know.

But what we do know is that His instructions for the future were: “Do this”.

We do.

Yes, Randy, we do, too. Lutherans will typically reserve the sacrament to do just this - to take to our sick and shut-ins, and reserved for later sacraments. Even reservation at or near the altar is permitted, though usually it is reserved in the sacristy. That’s what we do at our parish.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Something for Lutherans to remember about Eucharistic Adoration.

For that reason we say now that one should not condemn people or accuse them of heresy if they do not adore the sacrament, for there is no command to that effect and it is not for that purpose that Christ is present. Just as we read that the apostles did not adore the sacrament since they were sitting and eating at table [Matt. 26:20, 26]. On the other hand, one should not condemn and accuse of heresy people who do adore the sacrament. For although Christ has not commanded it, neither has he forbidden it, but often accepted it. Free, free it must be, according as one is disposed in his heart and has opportunity. Therefore both parties are to be blamed when they take a stand on either of these two sides and quarrel over this matter and condemn one another, and both of them miss the middle way. The first group would like to compel people not to adore the sacrament, as if Christ were not there at all; and the other group would like to compel people to adore it, as if Christ’s state of glory were in the sacrament as it is in heaven. - Martin Luther

ponderingchrist.com/main/?p=964

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi, Pablope! Lutherans do not presume to know, because, as I stated earlier, the problem of “what do we do with the leftovers?” shouldn’t exist in proper Lutheran practice. The instructions Christ gave were “Take, eat.” The instructions were not, “Take, eat, and save some for later.” In the correct scenario, all the Body and Blood is consumed.

Regarding what remains, whatever the case, proper respect ought to be shown for where Christ is/was. I think that’s abundantly clear from my previous post. We wouldn’t have such careful practice, and Luther and our other fathers wouldn’t have gone to such lengths to show this if it weren’t true.

Yes, Randy, we do, too. Lutherans will typically reserve the sacrament to do just this - to take to our sick and shut-ins, and reserved for later sacraments. Even reservation at or near the altar is permitted, though usually it is reserved in the sacristy. That’s what we do at our parish.

Jon

Are you guys saying that you have two different practices?

 

[JonNC]

Are you guys saying that you have two different practices?

No, not at all. If there is no need to reserve, many parishes will choose not to reserve, usually by consuming all. Other parishes may choose to reserve, anyway. Either practice is acceptable.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Wait a second, Don.

Jesus said, “Take and eat, this is my body, etc.” to the disciples in the Upper Room. But He didn’t actually specify when the eating had to be done, did He?

Now, on the night of the Last Supper, the Apostles left immediately for the Mount of Olives. Were there “leftovers”? We don’t know.

But what we do know is that His instructions for the future were: “Do this”.

We do.

Sure. I don’t think there’s any disagreement between what you said above, or what I stated in the last post (unless by highlighting the “upper room” portion, you mean to imply that the Sacrament was instituted only for those disciples in the room? I don’t think you are…). Sorry if I was unclear. Jon’s quote of Luther is better clarification of what I meant. Christ never told us how to handle any leftovers, so within the Lutheran tradition, our teachers have generally found it best to avoid the question altogether by simply consuming everything. If everything isn’t consumed, then it must be shown reverence, as I’ve noted.

 

[Thorolfr]

Hi, Pablope! Lutherans do not presume to know, because, as I stated earlier, the problem of “what do we do with the leftovers?” shouldn’t exist in proper Lutheran practice. The instructions Christ gave were “Take, eat.” The instructions were not, “Take, eat, and save some for later.” In the correct scenario, all the Body and Blood is consumed.

I go to a large Lutheran church and I’m not sure how they would know to have exactly the right amount of bread and wine ready during communion. Sometimes on occasions other than Sunday when there are fewer people, instead of using wafers, they’ve used a loaf of bread. When they are breaking the loaf up to give to people, how would they be able to break it into exactly the right amount without the possibility of there being some left over? The same thing goes for the wine. If there is a lot of wine left, is the pastor supposed to consume it during communion? It’s not plain grape juice after all.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I attended an Anglican Communion United Church (Church of South India) as a child, along with a reformedOrthodox Church (Marthoma Church) - both leaned toward receptionism. The first would treat the ‘leftovers’ as more than bread, less than Christ’s presence - for example, the leftover bread would be consumed by the minister and his sacristy assistants after the worship, the wine was given in a tray with little plastic cups, the remaining cups would be drunk or thrown away, and the plastic trashed. In the latter group, the minister have the bread into the communicants mouth, and made a second round to flip the wine into the same communicants mouth (or as close as one can get) via a spoon. Any remains were consumed by the minister and his altar/sacristy assistants. Interestingly, in both, if the bread or wine ran out, the minister would repeat the Eucharistic prayer and bless more elements, then continue.

 

[benjohnson]

If there is a lot of wine left, is the pastor supposed to consume it during communion? It’s not plain grape juice after all.

The chalice is drunk typically by the pastor - but if there’s too much, then this joyful obligation could be shared with others. The pastor should then pour a bit of water, swirl it, and drink the remainder.

At our church, remaining Body of Christ is usually early eaten by the children who help the altar guild.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, not at all. If there is no need to reserve, many parishes will choose not to reserve, usually by consuming all. Other parishes may choose to reserve, anyway. Either practice is acceptable.

Jon

Ah…that explains the differences.

 

[Thorolfr]

The chalice is drunk typically by the pastor - but if there’s too much, then this joyful obligation could be shared with others. The pastor should then pour a bit of water, swirl it, and drink the remainder.

In my church we have communion every Sunday and usually do it by intinction from a chalice except for the first Sunday of the month when we do it kneeling around the rail, with the wine given out in tiny plastic cups. I’ve never paid any attention to what they do with anything that is left, but it’s interesting to imagine the three pastors dividing a few dozen little tiny leftover cups of wine among themselves if there were that many left.

 

[steido01]

I go to a large Lutheran church and I’m not sure how they would know to have exactly the right amount of bread and wine ready during communion. Sometimes on occasions other than Sunday when there are fewer people, instead of using wafers, they’ve used a loaf of bread. When they are breaking the loaf up to give to people, how would they be able to break it into exactly the right amount without the possibility of there being some left over? The same thing goes for the wine. If there is a lot of wine left, is the pastor supposed to consume it during communion? It’s not plain grape juice after all.

Ben gave a great response. I’d only add that my previous posts explain proper, reverent ways to dispose of anything that may remain – straight from the Synod and the Altar Guild Manual.

Some Lutheran churches have found practical means of making sure they do not consecrate too much (examples: having those who intend to commune place a wafer on a platter as they enter church, marking whether they intend to commune on an attendance card prior to service, some small old-fashioned congregations even require confession on the Saturday before). I have seen, on at least one occasion, a pastor need to consecrate additional bread and wine. ISTM that this is preferable.