Lutheran communion

[benjohnson]

I’ve never paid any attention to what they do with anything that is left, but it’s interesting to imagine the three pastors dividing a few dozen little tiny leftover cups of wine among themselves if there were that many left.

That’s the real problem!

If you’re willing to help your pastor fix it - remind them that the cups are more dangerous for spreading disease than the chalice because they’re handled so much.

 

[Thorolfr]

Ben gave a great response. I’d only add that my previous posts explain proper, reverent ways to dispose of anything that may remain – straight from the Synod and the Altar Guild Manual.

Some Lutheran churches have found practical means of making sure they do not consecrate too much (examples: having those who intend to commune place a wafer on a platter as they enter church, marking whether they intend to commune on an attendance card prior to service, some small old-fashioned congregations even require confession on the Saturday before). I have seen, on at least one occasion, a pastor need to consecrate additional bread and wine. ISTM that this is preferable.

The methods you mention might work in a smaller church, but if you’re in a large church with a few thousand people, it would be more difficult to figure out, not to mention that ELCA churches practice open communion.

 

[spedteacherita]

From the Augsburg Confession:

Clearly the teaching is distributed, not just receptionism. The body and blood are distributed.

Jon

Thank you for adding that. This theology stuff gets pretty intense. Sure the elements need to be distributed but I guess what I was trying to say is that the elements do not turn into the body and blood (transubstantiation) but become the body and blood through the distribution and reception of the elements with the Word of God (This is my body…etc.).

Am I getting closer?

 

[steido01]

The methods you mention might work in a smaller church, but if you’re in a large church with a few thousand people, it would be more difficult to figure out, not to mention that ELCA churches practice open communion.

And that there’s another practice that you could help change.

 

[Hockeygurl]

Hockeygurl,

This is not an argument.

In Catholicism our theology teaches us of transubstantiation. With regard to the consecrated wine (Precious Blood), we sip from a common chalice, and the minister (the priest or extraordinary minister of the Eucharist) wipes the rim of the chalice, moves it around a bit, and then offers it to the next communicant. When the sacred vessel is empty it is brought to a specific area, and after being cleansed, the water is then poured into a special sink called a sacrarium. The sacrarium is designed so that the contents of what is poured in there goes right into the earth. The linen cloths that are used to wipe the chalice are rinsed afterwards, and that water goes into the sacrarium as well.

With regard to the hosts that are consecrated at Mass…Once we receive the consecrated Host, and it is broken down in our digestive system, (about ten minutes) the special Risen Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ is no longer there.

I might as well add this…whether we have a drop of the Precious Blood, or just a crumb of the Sacred Host, we are receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our risen Lord Jesus Christ.

I am soooo sorry if you felt that I was arguing with you… that was NOT my intention… My point was only that one could take it as far as they wanted.

I do want to point out that even though I was raised LCMS… I WAS taught Transubstantiation.

I do (as a healthcare professional) not like the common cup. Currently at the moment… I have 2 cold sores… I don’t think anyone else wants them… Lord knows I don’t.

Just to be clear… do the body and blood disappear after the service or do they remain? in that case… my paranoid thinking might have a little bit of relevance.

 

[spedteacherita]

:bigyikes: Did your pastor teach you this? If so, please PM me his name. While some Lutherans have fallen into error on this subject, the LCMS has never waivered from the position of Dr. Luther:

"[T]he Blessed Reformer, Dr. Luther, who when the chalice was spilled during distribution in his later years, actually cut out the part of the lady’s dress on which it was spilled and had the chair where the drops fell also planed and then both fabric and wood shavings burned. [In another instance], when he spilled the chalice and it fell to the floor, he carefully set the chalice back on the altar and got on his hands and knees and lapped it up off the floor like a dog - upon which the congregation burst into tears." -Pr. Will Weedon’s Blog​

Evidently, as I read the same info that you quoted, it seems that LCMS churches did fall into the receptionism error. I have been a member of several Lutheran churches thru out my lifetime as I was a teacher in LCMS schools bigyikes and this was my understanding over the years. Am I a lost soul? I don’t think so. I’ve learned something new and important in this conversation and hope to continue to learn more along the way.

Thanks for your info.

 

[spedteacherita]

:bigyikes: Did your pastor teach you this? If so, please PM me his name. While some Lutherans have fallen into error on this subject, the LCMS has never waivered from the position of Dr. Luther:

"[T]he Blessed Reformer, Dr. Luther, who when the chalice was spilled during distribution in his later years, actually cut out the part of the lady’s dress on which it was spilled and had the chair where the drops fell also planed and then both fabric and wood shavings burned. [In another instance], when he spilled the chalice and it fell to the floor, he carefully set the chalice back on the altar and got on his hands and knees and lapped it up off the floor like a dog - upon which the congregation burst into tears." -Pr. Will Weedon’s Blog​

Actually, I learned this in college. Here is a quote from Edward W. A. Koehler, D.D., in his book "A Summary of Christian Doctrine, " section XXXVI, “The Sacrament of the Altar,” section 9, "The sacramental union. This is in the 2nd paragraph: “We have no Biblical ground to assume that the bread is the body of Christ before we eat it, and that it continues to be the body of Christ after we have eaten it. The sacramental union ceases with the sacramental action. Contrary to the Romish opinion, bread and wine, though consecrated, are not the body and blood of Christ if they be not eaten and drunk, or if the bread falls on the floor, or the wine is spilled.”

And, in the last paragraph of this section: “The body and blood of Christ are really, but supernaturally, present in the Sacrament, and all communicants receive them orally, with their mouths, together with the bread and wine.”

This book was one we used in our Theology class at Concordia University, Ann Arbor, MI.

 

[spedteacherita]

Just to be clear… do the body and blood disappear after the service or do they remain? in that case… my paranoid thinking might have a little bit of relevance.

Hi, Dorothy.

I just posted part of this in answer to Don’s question about where I learned about dropping or spilling the elements.

This is to answer your question about the body and blood disappearing after the service. What I learned in my theology class at Concordia College (now University) an educational institution supported by the LCMS, was:

Quoted from Edward W. A. Koehler, D.D., in his book "A Summary of Christian Doctrine, " section XXXVI, “The Sacrament of the Altar,” section 9, "The sacramental union. This is in the 2nd paragraph: “…Nor does the sacramental union continue beyond the eating and drinking; we do not chew, swallow, digest, and assimilate the body and blood of Christ as we do the bread and wine.” Koehler was a Lutheran Theologian and this book was first published in 1939.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[spedteacherita]

Well, not necessarily. Here’s what we do:

1. Use a common cup. There are five used in my church, for example, and one of those is only used by the priest. He cleans his own chalice at the altar before the end of mass, so that leaves four. Those cups are usually pretty empty by the time the last communicant receives, but the Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister is responsible for consuming what is left before leaving the altar.
2. The chalices are carefully washed by the priest after mass. Every Catholic Church has a special sink that drains directly into the earth and is not connected to any other system.
3. Any consecrated hosts which are not consumed are placed into the tabernacle and brought out again at the next mass.
4. Finally, Catholic theology holds that the body and blood of Jesus are present in the Eucharistic elements only as long as the accidents of bread and wine are discernible. Thus, a really, really tiny crumb from a host is no longer discernible as “bread” and therefore, Jesus is no longer present. As for that which you consume, again, once it is no longer possible to recognize the “bread” or “wine” in your stomach, then Jesus is no longer present. That is thought to be about 15 minutes.

Randy, I understand from your post that you receive both the bread and wine in communion? Are you a Roman Catholic? I’ve only seen the bread given to communicants in the masses I see on EWTN. Just curious…

 

[Dorothy]

I am soooo sorry if you felt that I was arguing with you… that was NOT my intention… My point was only that one could take it as far as they wanted.

I do want to point out that even though I was raised LCMS… I WAS taught Transubstantiation.

I do (as a healthcare professional) not like the common cup. Currently at the moment… I have 2 cold sores… I don’t think anyone else wants them… Lord knows I don’t.

Just to be clear… do the body and blood disappear after the service or do they remain? in that case… my paranoid thinking might have a little bit of relevance.

The Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ remain. If there is wine (Precious Blood) remaining the priest and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist consume it. If there are consecrated Hosts left they are reserved in the tabernacle, and there is always a red lamp lit there to remind us of Jesus’ Sacramental Presence there.

Those who desire to pass the chalice of the Precious Blood without receiving may do so. They have just received the consecrated Bread which is, as is the Precious Blood, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Ressurected Lord.

Thank you for your post, and may you and yours have a blessed and holy Christmas!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, I understand from your post that you receive both the bread and wine in communion? Are you a Roman Catholic? I’ve only seen the bread given to communicants in the masses I see on EWTN. Just curious…

Roman Catholic. 35 years this past summer.

Catholics are normally offered the host and the cup. Only about half accept the chalice.

As for EWTN, maybe it’s the camera angle? I dunno…

 

[JonNC]

Roman Catholic. 35 years this past summer.

Catholics are normally offered the host and the cup. Only about half accept the chalice.

As for EWTN, maybe it’s the camera angle? I dunno…

As I recall, Randy, it was part of the reforms at Vatican II that returned the availability of the chalice to the laity. Am I correct?

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

As I recall, Randy, it was part of the reforms at Vatican II that returned the availability of the chalice to the laity. Am I correct?

Jon

35 years. Not 50.

 

[JonNC]

35 years. Not 50.

I know that, Randy. I simply meant wasn’t Vat II the time frame when the chalice was again made available to the laity?

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know that, Randy. I simply meant wasn’t Vat II the time frame when the chalice was again made available to the laity?

Jon

I know. I was trying to say that I don’t know the answer to that question by means of a joke.

 

[JonNC]

I know. I was trying to say that I don’t know the answer to that question by means of a joke.

You don’t know the answer? :bigyikes:

Perhaps someone else does. For now, I must come to grips with the idea that your expansive knowledge of things Catholic has limits.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

You don’t know the answer? :bigyikes:

Perhaps someone else does. For now, I must come to grips with the idea that your expansive knowledge of things Catholic has limits.

Jon

1. Sheesh.

 

[JonNC]

1. Sheesh.

In all sincerity, I appreciate and admire not only your knowledge of your faith, but the way you share it.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

In all sincerity, I appreciate and admire not only your knowledge of your faith, but the way you share it.

Jon

You’re being overly kind as we both know I have much room for improvement in that regard

But I do thank you.

:tiphat:

 

[spedteacherita]

In all sincerity, I appreciate and admire not only your knowledge of your faith, but the way you share it.

Jon

I like (and enjoy) reading both of your posts and information you share.

You guys made me laugh at the end here!