Lutheran communion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_farmer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JonNC said:
I know that, Randy. 😛 I simply meant wasn’t Vat II the time frame when the chalice was again made available to the laity?

Jon
Click to expand...
There was no universal restriction of the Chalice in place. There were restrictions in certain areas (like German and Switzerland), due to certain protestant sects denying that Christ is present whole-ly after consecration received via the host or the chalice. This was never universal, although it did carry over to the US when these cultures came by boat.

Eastern Catholic have always received both, although by different means. The Latin Church has given both in various places even while the ‘restriction’ was ordered in some areas, to show that the protestant teaching was false.
 
SyroMalankara said:
There were restrictions in certain areas (like German and Switzerland), due to certain protestant sects denying that Christ is present whole-ly after consecration received via the host or the chalice.
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly, the chalice was withheld in Germany well before there were Protestants.
 
SyroMalankara said:
There was no universal restriction of the Chalice in place. There were restrictions in certain areas (like German and Switzerland), due to certain protestant sects denying that Christ is present whole-ly after consecration received via the host or the chalice. This was never universal, although it did carry over to the US when these cultures came by boat.

Eastern Catholic have always received both, although by different means. The Latin Church has given both in various places even while the ‘restriction’ was ordered in some areas, to show that the protestant teaching was false.
Click to expand...
benjohnson said:
If I remember correctly, the chalice was withheld in Germany well before there were Protestants.
Click to expand...
Ben-

As was stated by Syro, the Chalice has been withheld in order to strengthen the understanding that Jesus is fully present in the host as well as in the cup.

IOW, if you receive only the host, you are still receiving body, blood, soul and divinity. The same would be true if you received only the cup.

There has been some recent talk of withholding the cup again to eliminate the need for extraordinary ministers of the eucharist which are so common now due to the shortage of priests that they no longer SEEM extraordinary but ordinary.

I don’t know if this will gain much traction, though.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Ben-

As was stated by Syro, the Chalice has been withheld in order to strengthen the understanding that Jesus is fully present in the host as well as in the cup.

IOW, if you receive only the host, you are still receiving body, blood, soul and divinity. The same would be true if you received only the cup.

There has been some recent talk of withholding the cup again to eliminate the need for extraordinary ministers of the eucharist which are so common now due to the shortage of priests that they no longer SEEM extraordinary but ordinary.

I don’t know if this will gain much traction, though.
Click to expand...
Hi Randy,
I do not know the sequence of events on this for sure. I will say, though, that while the Lutheran Reformers were no fans of concomitance, their big issue with withholding the cup from the laity had to do with the command of Christ.

bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article22

Jon
 
Randy_Carson said:
There has been some recent talk of withholding the cup again to eliminate the need for extraordinary ministers of the eucharist which are so common now due to the shortage of priests that they no longer SEEM extraordinary but ordinary.
Click to expand...
I went to an Adoration of the Cross with my Catholic friends, and was sort of weirded out that some Extraordinary Ministers were in street clothing - so I’m certainly understanding of the issue.

…

In addition to what Jon has said that Christ commands to “Take and eat, and take and drink” - additionally reformers were grumpy that the priests usually communed in both kinds, but withheld the Blood from the laity. So much so - than in Lutheran art that depicts the Mass (Divine Service) you almost always see both species of the Sacrement being administered:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
What a nice image, unfortunately almost all modern day Lutherans will deny any link to such papalisms and would probably not even recognize this art as Lutheran.
 
benjohnson said:
If I remember correctly, the chalice was withheld in Germany well before there were Protestants.
Click to expand...
No, the practice only became popular among the Latin Catholics after the Hussite insistence that receiving in both kinds was mandatory “for salvation” and any other form was not grace-filled, circa 1430s. The Hussites (and their later followers) were strict literalistic legalists, and thought that the Scriptures recorded “those who [do not] drink his blood” have no life in them.
 
SyroMalankara said:
What a nice image, unfortunately almost all modern day Lutherans will deny any link to such papalisms and would probably not even recognize this art as Lutheran.
Click to expand...
This is where I go for Vespers - note the altar rail with the kneelers for receiving the Body and Blood.

 
SyroMalankara said:
No, the practice only became popular among the Latin Catholics after the Hussite insistence that receiving in both kinds was mandatory “for salvation” and any other form was not grace-filled, circa 1430s.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, the Hussites only implored that: “The sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist shall be freely administered in the two kinds, that is bread and wine, to all the faithful in Christ who are not precluded by mortal sin - according to the word and disposition of Our Saviour.”

So if the Catholic church was administering both kinds, why would the Hussites make a fuss over this?
 
SyroMalankara said:
What a nice image, unfortunately almost all modern day Lutherans will deny any link to such papalisms and would probably not even recognize this art as Lutheran.
Click to expand...
Actually, the only thing that an American Lutheran might not recognize is the the tray held by the acolytes (altar boys). Otherwise, I remember wearing garments very similar to those was I was a kid - in choir, and as an acolyte. The ones I wore did not have the yoke.

We received on the tongue, and the option of the chalice (along with those little cups :dts: ) was available.

Jon
 
Randy_Carson said:
There has been some recent talk of withholding the cup again to eliminate the need for extraordinary ministers of the eucharist which are so common now due to the shortage of priests that they no longer SEEM extraordinary but ordinary.

I don’t know if this will gain much traction, though.
Click to expand...
What’s curious, Randy, is how Lutheran practice seems to have followed that of Catholic practice. We used to receive on the tongue. Now most receive in the hand. There were never laity involved in the distribution, now there almost always are. And rarely are they robed.

Jon
 
benjohnson said:
This is where I go for Vespers - note the altar rail with the kneelers for receiving the Body and Blood.
Click to expand...
Ben, would I be far-off to suggest you perhaps attend one of the more unique Lutheran communities, perhaps in the world?
Most Lutherans have some female clergy, pray facing the congregation, wear minimal vestments or at least less CatholicTraditional-looking, don’t have a gold-covered Gospel, minimally dress the altar, etc
 
SyroMalankara said:
Ben, would I be far-off to suggest you perhaps attend one of the more unique Lutheran communities, perhaps in the world?
Most Lutherans have some female clergy, pray facing the congregation, wear minimal vestments or at least less CatholicTraditional-looking, don’t have a gold-covered Gospel, minimally dress the altar, etc
Click to expand...
I wonder the same thing if this is representative, even remotely to most Lutheran communities,

Mary.
 
JonNC said:
What’s curious, Randy, is how Lutheran practice seems to have followed that of Catholic practice. We used to receive on the tongue. Now most receive in the hand. There were never laity involved in the distribution, now there almost always are. And rarely are they robed.

Jon
Click to expand...
In my ELCA church, we usually stand in a line and proceed down until just before the altar rail where we receive on the tongue by intinction with either one of the pastors or a member of the laity (depending on which line we’re in) dipping the wafer into the wine in a chalice and then placing it on the tongue of the person receiving. Once a month we receive the wafer in our hand while kneeling at the altar rail and then take a tiny plastic cup of wine from a tray.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Ben, would I be far-off to suggest you perhaps attend one of the more unique Lutheran communities, perhaps in the world?
Most Lutherans have some female clergy, pray facing the congregation, wear minimal vestments or at least less CatholicTraditional-looking, don’t have a gold-covered Gospel, minimally dress the altar, etc
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t say that at all - about 50% of the Lutheran churches here are Ad Orientem (15% are in the round) - and 90% have altar rails.

Here’s a photo of me and my bride in our “hippy dippy happy clappy” Lutheran church - and even then, except for the woman priest, it’s pretty orthodox in liturgy. This is pretty standard and nothing unique.

Look at those altar rails and weep for Vatican II 😛
 
Our parish recently went to two services on Sundays - and part of the reason was that the members wanted to receive at the altar rail instead of standing in line. Our church is very old and quite small, so only 10-12 could comfortably kneel at the rail - the lengthy distribution time pushed the worship service to nearly 2 hours at Easter!

Our Divine Services have the pastor praying with his back to the congregation - the rubrics pretty much say that when he is addressing God, his back is to us. Again, I know that some newer churches have the altar placed differently.

As an aside, neither service features contemporary formats/songs. It’s all “old”, all the time. 🙂

Pastor distributes the host, an elder holds the tray with the individual glasses (grrr) and the Deacon has the chalice. The young man holding the tray to receive the glasses is one of my sons.

trinitymemphis.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/worship-17.jpg
 
Stilldreamn, I hope you don’t mind me putting your photo in a link for all to see:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
JonNC said:
What’s curious, Randy, is how Lutheran practice seems to have followed that of Catholic practice. We used to receive on the tongue. Now most receive in the hand. There were never laity involved in the distribution, now there almost always are. And rarely are they robed.

Jon
Click to expand...
The last 2 LCMS churches I attended did have the lay ministers robed. The LCMC church which I attend now does not robe at all…not even the pastor. It was strange at first but I don’t notice it now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top