Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[stewstew03]

With all due respect to that pastor, it seems inconsistent to criticize the CC for claiming infallibility, and then claim it ourselves.
…

Agreed.

But if something rightly reflects the infallible Word of God, and does not err… then of course it is infallible.

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[aidanbradypop]

Agreed.

But if something rightly reflects the infallible Word of God, and does not err… then of course it is infallible.

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Nice point. My LCMC friend believe they are infallible, but does not want to claim as much. I have no clue why he tries to tip toe around it

 

[stewstew03]

Nice point. My LCMC friend believe they are infallible, but does not want to claim as much. I have no clue why he tries to tip toe around it

For some reason JonNC and benjohnson are not willing to recognize that something that reflects God is without error and therefore infallible…

This particular Lutheran pastor says the Confessions are not infallible BUT… they only contain Truth, are drawn directly from Truth, and are nothing less than that of inerrant Holy Scripture…



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[pablope]

To answer directly:

The Lutheran Confessions are fine and good - even Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger mulled over the idea that they were catholic.

 

[aidanbradypop]

For some reason JonNC and benjohnson are not willing to recognize that something that reflects God is without error and therefore infallible…

This particular Lutheran pastor says the Confessions are not infallible BUT… they only contain Truth, are drawn directly from Truth, and are nothing less than that of inerrant Holy Scripture…
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Will most of Christianity states that Sacred Scipture is infallible, many tend to leave it there. Proclaiming something else infallible migh create an issue for some.

 

[MaryT777]

Nice point. My LCMC friend believe they are infallible, but does not want to claim as much. I have no clue why he tries to tip toe around it

It’s simply easier to tiptoe around an issue than defend it for many people.

 

[Tomster]

Agreeing…it appears that the Lutherans aren’t sure themselves if the Lutheran Confessions can err.

Either that or they like riddles.

Good works are necessary but they are NOT necessary is what is said in this LCMS.
(NOT necessary for salvation but necessary as an expression of your faith)
That’s another topic of course.

Just a mystery of Lutheran-ese.

One thing for sure, Mary (beautiful name BTW), by their own admission they are open to the fact that if they can be shown error exists in their confessional statements they are ready to change the error which in fact would show that their confessional statements are fallible and do not truly reflect what is contained in Scripture. This admission partially explains the divisions within world wide Lutheranism. Some say the confessional statements say this while others say the confessional statements say that. While others (individual persons) have devolved into a purely rationalistic system of belief or unbelief while still claiming to be Lutheran.

What must be remembered in all of this is that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Catholics and Lutherans both believe this. Where Catholics and orthodox Lutherans differ is that Catholics believe it takes an infallible interpreter to interpret Scriptures infallibly. Nothing less will do. God’s word is one. Lutherans, on the other hand, and no disrespect intended, are still searching the Scriptures on an individualistic basis. Searching the Scriptures in this manner is part of their tradition. They can’t escape it. For them to admit that infalliblity exists anywhere apart from Scriptures is anathema. Hence, they are at the mercy of their own fallible confessional statements and to those in their own fallible hierachical structures who determine and impose on their flocks fallible doctrinal discipline.

 

[aidanbradypop]

One thing for sure, Mary (beautiful name BTW), by their own admission they are open to the fact that if they can be shown error exists in their confessional statements they are ready to change the error which in fact would show that their confessional statements are fallible and do not truly reflect what is contained in Scripture. This admission partially explains the divisions within world wide Lutheranism. Some say the confessional statements say this while others say the confessional statements say that. While others (individual persons) have devolved into a purely rationalistic system of belief or unbelief while still claiming to be Lutheran.

What must be remembered in all of this is that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Catholics and Lutherans both believe this. Where Catholics and Lutherans differ is that Catholics believe it takes an infallible interpreter to interpret Scriptures infallibly. Nothing less will do. God’s word is one. Lutherans, on the other hand, and no disrespect intended, are still searching the Scriptures on individualistic basis. Searching the Scriptures in this manner is part of their tradition. They can’t escape it. For them to admit that infalliblity exists anywhere apart from Scriptures is anathema. Hence, they are at the mercy of their own fallible confessional statements and to those in their own fallible hierachical structures who determine and impose on their flocks fallible doctrinal discipline.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks, Ben, I am not saying they are not, even though you indirectly referred to me as illiterate.

 

[benjohnson]

Thanks, Ben, I am not saying they are not, even though you indirectly referred to me as illiterate.

 

[studentoflove]

Regarding Faith Alone. In the Greek translation the word “alone” is not there. Martin Luther did not get it right on this battle cry when he made his German translation. Luther says he is set free by Romans, yet this comes from Romans. Also, Bible alone. Where in the Bible does it teach Bible “alone”. Traditions are very important in following Jesus. It tells us this in the Bible. Many times. Was there curruption in the Church? Yes. But dont stop following Peter because of Judas. More importantly. I love and respect all our Christian brothers and sisters. It’s exciting to see how much we love each of our religions and how we stand stong for them. But again, I think most important we are all one family. Love to all. This is my first post and am I so excited to learn. I have asked the Holy Spirit to help me and I’ve had this deep urge to seek a better understanding of the Christian Catholic Faith and Bible ever since.

 

[MaryT777]

Welcome to the forums! I enjoyed your first post. Post again soon…
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[studentoflove]

Luthern Confessions. They are good and true and they are forgiven if they ask Gods forgiveness. Right? Infallible. I dont think Im smart enough to talk about this. Just wish a Luthern could have the Sacrement of Reconciliation.(spelling) I am so filled with the Holy Spirit when I’m done, its like Im walking on clouds.

 

[MaryT777]

Jon, you can always speak for me!!! I would make me look much wiser than am!

-Ben

LOL…Ben you do ok yourself, you don’t need Jon to speak for you. I enjoy your posts.

 

[stewstew03]

not

give the mirror any special virtue.

I have a book from the Oxford University Press that contains 73 books, and was edited by Donald Senior and John J. Collins. I don’t know who Mr. Senior and Mr. Collins are, but I’m interested in the authors of the 73 books and what they have to say. It was published in 2006, though the original version, which I don’t have, is much older. In other words, this is a copy of a copy of a copy… What’s more, the original book was not written in English, so I have to trust that this English translation is accurate.

They tell me that this book from Oxford University Press rightly reflects God’s Word. Does this book, which is sitting on my shelf, with wrinkled corners, and pen-markings, have any special virtue?

The point is - it’s not the mirrored glass (or the paper) that holds virtue - it’s the image or the message conveyed by that mirrored glass and paper. The image of God has a special virtue. The Word of God has a special virtue. Glass does not. Paper does not.

Now, if the Lutheran Confessions “rightly reflect God’s Word” and the doctrines are “diligently and faithfully drawn from Scripture” and possess “the saving truth”, then doesn’t that mean the Confessions are free of doctrinal and moral error? Of course it does. Therefore, there is no other conclusion to draw than that the Confessions are infallible.

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[MaryT777]

pablope;10661780:

I hope I didn’t accuse you of being illiterate You have my apologies!

My grumpiness are with those that have read the confessions and yet claim to follow them. When in fact they don’t.

Ben are you referring to individuals within the LCMS when speaking of following the confessions or those of another Lutheran Synod such as ELCA.

Do you believe the ELCA follow the Lutheran confessions. It’s been “alluded” to they do not but never stated one way or the other.
Do you have an opinion?

Mary.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks, Ben, I am not saying they are not, even though you indirectly referred to me as illiterate.

 

[steido01]

Not a well-thought out response…

 

[Tomster]

Why should Lutherans be constrained to describing the mirror itself (the Confessions) as having the same attributes as the true image (Scripture)? I understand how Catholics may want to dismiss the Confessions as a “paper pope,” but this is a mischaracterization that tries to explain Lutheranism in a Catholic lens. Lutherans don’t have the need for an “infallible” human interpreter (either on paper or in flesh) because we are comfortable with an infallible source that interprets itself. ‘Scriptura scripturam interpretaram’ - Scripture interprets scripture.

Scripture interprets Scripture?

Where is that in the Bible?

 

[JonNC]

=pablope;10659860]

Rightly so…but would you say, this unwillingness has some roots in the lack of precise declarations?

No, because with some, how shall I say, modernists, even the precise declarations are at times questioned.

They are both apostolic…have roots in the apostles…it is just a matter of which one you believe…or leans to…right?

That would assume its ok to be in Schism. It would also assume that both are right, even when they disagree.

Are you making your own definition of what AS is?

No

Why would it be questionable? Has the declaration resulted in errors for the Church?

Or has it served the Church for the better?

It may be, itself, an error, and from my perspective has extended division, though surely not all on its own.

Or is it because of develepments in the world…this was the direction the church was directed to?

The problem is only parts of the Church. Hopefully, we can find in the near future resolve our differences about it.

Jon