Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[JonNC]

=bzkoss236;10660111]So, you are saying that the confessions are infallible because it claims to be infallible?

No, the opposite. We wouldn’t speak of infallible the way Catholics do regarding them. At least I wouldn’t. Right? Yes. Inerrant or infallible? No

Then what proof do you have that the Bible teaches sola-scriptura? Or better yet, which Church Fathers?

The Church Fathers would have no knowledge of the events leading up to the Great Schism, and following, the Reformation. That said, SS is a post apostolic-era practice, and while alluded to, it wouldn’t be specific or explicit in scripture.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Well, you can disagree from what is sound and reasonable, but that doesn’t look too good, does it. Obviously we understand and respect your disagreement since what is righteous cannot be imposed, not on atheists, not on non-Christians, not on Christians in partial communion

And we wouldn’t impose what we believe is sound and reasonable on our Catholic siblings, either. We, too, respect your view. The hoe is we can seek to solve our disagreements.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Agreed.

But if something rightly reflects the infallible Word of God, and does not err… then of course it is infallible.

.

I’m pleased that you see our confessions as infallible.

Seriously, I guess our understanding of infallible may be different. when I think of infallible/inerrant, I think of scripture. It seems that something that is correct doesn’t by necessity have to be infallible.

Jon

 

[studentoflove]

Jon,

I’d like to hear what you would say about Faith Alone and Bible Alone again. So you believe this or you do not?

 

[benjohnson]

Do you believe the ELCA follow the Lutheran confessions. It’s been “alluded” to they do not but never stated one way or the other.
Do you have an opinion?

Mary.

There are some excellent confessional Lutherans in the ELCA. It can show up in odd places; My old female ELCA pastor finally ‘had it’ with the ELCA and guided her church to the confessional LCMC synod and became a lay person. There are churches that are in the synod that completely ignore the ELCA.

But sadly, the leadership of the ELCA is anything but confessional - while homosexual pastors are distressing, the most egregious change in my opinion is the renouncing of the rights of a child it’s own existence.

I pray for such people who lead people away from God’s clear message of life.

 

[benjohnson]

Since the Lutheran Church was nowhere to be found on the same historical time line as these Councils, the Confessions are conceding that the Catholic Church has the Divine right to infallibly decide on matters pertaining to faith and morals while they, themselves, hold no such claim.

Not to start an argument, but we advance a positive claim to be that very church that was at those councils. Our viewpoint is that we’re the valid continuation of the western church.

From a Catholic perspective, I understand that this claim we make probably seems preposterous.

But if Lutherans didn’t think this was true, we would have to admit that we were simply ‘playing’ at being the church.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

I’d like to hear what you would say about Faith Alone and Bible Alone again. So you believe this or you do not?

Welcome to CAF.

Off topic, but briefly what our confessions say:

Faith alone - Augsburg Confession
*Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4. *

Sola Scriptura - Formula of Concord says, in part,

*We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8. *

*Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God. *

Jon

 

[JonNC]

LOL…Ben you do ok yourself, you don’t need Jon to speak for you. I enjoy your posts.

Me too, Mary.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

There are some excellent confessional Lutherans in the ELCA. It can show up in odd places; My old female ELCA pastor finally ‘had it’ with the ELCA and guided her church to the confessional LCMC synod and became a lay person. There are churches that are in the synod that completely ignore the ELCA.

But sadly, the leadership of the ELCA is anything but confessional - while homosexual pastors are distressing, the most egregious change in my opinion is the renouncing of the rights of a child it’s own existence.

I pray for such people who lead people away from God’s clear message of life.

There are some not so confessional LCMC also

 

[benjohnson]

There are some not so confessional LCMC also

No doubt! Like me!

I don’t measure up well at all, and I constantly rebel.

I’ll do my best, but it will truly be through the grace of God that I’ll even approach being somewhat house trained.

…

Mary and Jon, thanks for the kind comments!

 

[studentoflove]

Thank you Jon, I know you have 14,000 posts and I have 2 but…

First Faith Alone:

Would you all please read James Chapter 2 14-19 and than 24 and than really look at verse 26.

I kind of already know what you are going to reply to this. But remember, Faith Alone and Bible Alone.

You bring up Romans and again I say the Greek translation does not say the word “alone”. This is done by Martin Luther in his German translaItion. You said it yourself when you bring up St. Paul. “if I or an angel of heaven preaches to you any other gospel reject them.”

Now Bible Alone:

I dont understant that you have the assumption that the bible alone is sufficient yet the bible does not teach this assumption. How do you get around this?

Would everyone please read 2 Thesolonians Chapter 2 verse 15. Paul says hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you recieve from us either in writing “Bible” or by word of mouth.

Regarding the Body and Blood of Christ. John 6-53 Read the Greek. The crowd started out big but Jesus says eat of My flest and drink of My blood. He doesnt say it once or twice but four times. Soon there was no crowd. Only the 12. Jesues says to them. Do you wish to leave? Peter than speak for the 12. To whom shall we go? We have come to believe you are the One and Holy God. How is this a figure of speech from Jesus? I understand that it is hard to wrap your head around. It seems Peter even is thinking this when he says “To whom shall we go”. But they BELIEVE. They had faith even though they did not understand. Ahhhhh. The mystery of faith. Kind of like the Trinity. Its hard to wrap you head around it. But I believe without question out of faith. Jesus also uses the word covenant when talking about the Body and Blood of Christ. I am yours and you are mine. Please dont call the Eucarist the Lords supper.

And yes after the apostles there was false teachings. This is why we have all the Letters in the Bible.To make sure they were preaching to the flock the right stuff. And this is why we need a Pope. So we dont have false teachings. Jesus gives the keys to heaven to Peter. Right?

“He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (petra) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15-19 RSV)

The final words of Jesus here are very important.

There are over 35000 Protestant branches. There is one Catholic. Thats why we need a Pope. There is one Church and always has been. Traditional is important. Again, look to
Paul in the above verses in 2 Thes

Praying to saints is all over the bible also. Hebrew Ch 12 v 1 Matthew 17 1-3 Rev 5 Rev 6

By the way. You have baptism wrong too.

Thanks for listening my Christian brother. I love you and with every post you make I want to learn more and dive deeper.

 

[JonNC]

Thank you Jon, I know you have 14,000 posts and I have 2 but…

First Faith Alone:

Would you all please read James Chapter 2 14-19 and than 24 and than really look at verse 26.

I kind of already know what you are going to reply to this. But remember, Faith Alone and Bible Alone.

You bring up Romans and again I say the Greek translation does not say the word “alone”. This is done by Martin Luther in his German translaItion. You said it yourself when you bring up St. Paul. “if I or an angel of heaven preaches to you any other gospel reject them.”

Now Bible Alone:

I dont understant that you have the assumption that the bible alone is sufficient yet the bible does not teach this assumption. How do you get around this?

Would everyone please read 2 Thesolonians Chapter 2 verse 15. Paul says hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you recieve from us either in writing “Bible” or by word of mouth.

Regarding the Body and Blood of Christ. John 6-53 Read the Greek. The crowd started out big but Jesus says eat of My flest and drink of My blood. He doesnt say it once or twice but four times. Soon there was no crowd. Only the 12. Jesues says to them. Do you wish to leave? Peter than speak for the 12. To whom shall we go? We have come to believe you are the One and Holy God. How is this a figure of speech from Jesus? I understand that it is hard to wrap your head around. It seems Peter even is thinking this when he says “To whom shall we go”. But they BELIEVE. They had faith even though they did not understand. Ahhhhh. The mystery of faith. Kind of like the Trinity. Its hard to wrap you head around it. But I believe without question out of faith. Jesus also uses the word covenant when talking about the Body and Blood of Christ. I am yours and you are mine. Please dont call the Eucarist the Lords supper.

And yes after the apostles there was false teachings. This is why we have all the Letters in the Bible.To make sure they were preaching to the flock the right stuff. And this is why we need a Pope. So we dont have false teachings. Jesus gives the keys to heaven to Peter. Right?

“He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (petra) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15-19 RSV)

The final words of Jesus here are very important.

There are over 35000 Protestant branches. There is one Catholic. Thats why we need a Pope. There is one Church and always has been. Traditional is important. Again, look to
Paul in the above verses in 2 Thes

Praying to saints is all over the bible also. Hebrew Ch 12 v 1 Matthew 17 1-3 Rev 5 Rev 6

By the way. You have baptism wrong too.

Thanks for listening my Christian brother. I love you and with every post you make I want to learn more and dive deeper.

Lots here to respond to, my friend. I think the thrust of the thread is about
the concept of infallibility and how Lutherans view our confessions. I have often
interacted about these topics, and will be happy to join another thread about
them, or a PM conversation with you.
One thing I will mention is that the CC in dialogue has always willingly
used Lord’s Supper, Eucharist , Sacrament of the Altar, etc. interchangeably.
All these terms acturately refer to the sacrament.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

No doubt! Like me!

I don’t measure up well at all, and I constantly rebel.

I’ll do my best, but it will truly be through the grace of God that I’ll even approach being somewhat house trained.

I assume it could also be said for the Catholic who proclaims they are Catholic, but does not agree with the majority of Church teachings. I would consider the LCMC congregations here to be more mainline and less confessional. They tend to work more with ELCA rather than LCMS here.

Lots here to respond to, my friend. I think the thrust of the thread is about
the concept of infallibility and how Lutherans view our confessions. I have often
interacted about these topics, and will be happy to join another thread about
them, or a PM conversation with you.
One thing I will mention is that the CC in dialogue has always willingly
used Lord’s Supper, Eucharist , Sacrament of the Altar, etc. interchangeably.
All these terms acturately refer to the sacrament.

Jon

Way to stay on topic lol.

How much authority, if any, do Lutherans grant the Confessions? Much like the CCC?

 

[studentoflove]

Of all that was posted, you chose to post about the what is called the Eucarist? Why would you call it the Lord’s supper? Come one now. Give me something here with my post. Besides this small error I may have made. I dont think it should be called the Lord’s supper. The body and blood of Christ called the Lord’s supper. Come on. I’ll call it the Holy Eucarist. A convenant with Jesus Christ. So you really think He was just talking figuratively?

 

[stewstew03]

Of all that was posted, you chose to post about the what is called the Eucarist? Why would you call it the Lord’s supper? Come one now. Give me something here with my post. Besides this small error I may have made. I dont think it should be called the Lord’s supper. The body and blood of Christ called the Lord’s supper. Come on. I’ll call it the Holy Eucarist. A convenant with Jesus Christ. So you really think He was just talking figuratively?

Hi studentoflove -

JonNC doesn’t shy away from discussion, and I haven’t known him to be uncharitable. It might be better to start a new thread… we’ll all join your discussion!

.

 

[stewstew03]

I’m pleased that you see our confessions as infallible.

As Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger once said:

“it might be possible to interpret the Confessio Augustana [CA or Augsburg Confession] under the laws of the empire as a catholic confession…efforts are underway to achieve a Catholic recognition of the CA or, more correctly, a recognition of the CA as catholic, and thereby to establish the catholicity of the churches of the CA, which makes possible a corporate union while the differences remain."

Seriously, I guess our understanding of infallible may be different. when I think of infallible/inerrant, I think of scripture. It seems that something that is correct doesn’t by necessity have to be infallible.

It’s more than “just correct.” The Confessions, apparently, reflect God’s Word and contain Truths needed for salvation. Whether you recognize it or not, the Lutheran Confessions are fides ecclesiastica in Lutheran form. I think this is worth keeping in mind when confessional Lutherans denounce the Catholic Church (and her dogma on infallibility).

.

 

[MaryT777]

There are some excellent confessional Lutherans in the ELCA. It can show up in odd places; My old female ELCA pastor finally ‘had it’ with the ELCA and guided her church to the confessional LCMC synod and became a lay person. There are churches that are in the synod that completely ignore the ELCA.

But sadly, the leadership of the ELCA is anything but confessional - while homosexual pastors are distressing, the most egregious change in my opinion is the renouncing of the rights of a child it’s own existence.

I pray for such people who lead people away from God’s clear message of life.

Thanks Ben… I join you in prayer.
Mary.

 

[gcnuss]

There are some excellent confessional Lutherans in the ELCA. It can show up in odd places; My old female ELCA pastor finally ‘had it’ with the ELCA and guided her church to the confessional LCMC synod and became a lay person. There are churches that are in the synod that completely ignore the ELCA.

But sadly, the leadership of the ELCA is anything but confessional - while homosexual pastors are distressing, the most egregious change in my opinion is the renouncing of the rights of a child it’s own existence.

I pray for such people who lead people away from God’s clear message of life.

Ben,

I am in the ELCA and I can assure you that not everyone here goes along with the recent decisions regarding same-sex unions and not everyone agrees with the ELCA’s position on abortion.

Why do some of us stay? I believe that there is a need for voices within the ELCA that proclaim the truth. I suspect that there are those who hope we would all go away and let them continue unchallenged. Given the number of people, both pastors and lay, who have left, the voice for traditional teachings is diminished. That, in my view, is unfortunate.

Now to the subject of this thread, I grant that I do not claim to follow the teaching that the Pope is the anti-Christ. I tend to turn away from polemics that seem to be rooted in the time in which the Confessions were written.

 

[Tomster]

Ben,

I am in the ELCA and I can assure you that not everyone here goes along with the recent decisions regarding same-sex unions and not everyone agrees with the ELCA’s position on abortion.

Why do some of us stay? I believe that there is a need for voices within the ELCA that proclaim the truth. I suspect that there are those who hope we would all go away and let them continue unchallenged. Given the number of people, both pastors and lay, who have left, the voice for traditional teachings is diminished. That, in my view, is unfortunate.

Hang tough gc. Your’s is an uphill battle.

 

[benjohnson]

Why do some of us stay? I believe that there is a need for voices within the ELCA that proclaim the truth. I suspect that there are those who hope we would all go away and let them continue unchallenged. Given the number of people, both pastors and lay, who have left, the voice for traditional teachings is diminished. That, in my view, is unfortunate.

Pastor, you have my gratitude! You’re a great Christian example of standing up for what is correct and you are in my prayers.