Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[MaryT777]

Better yet, if she accepted the Catechisms of Trent and Vatican II she’d be spot on.

Messin’ with you Ben, that’s all.

Ben was messin with us first!
I was like NO, Ben that most certainly is not TRUE LOL )

 

[Tomster]

Ben was messin with us first!
I was like NO, Ben that most certainly is not TRUE LOL )

Well, I’m gonna tell Mom on both of you.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben was messin with us first!
I was like NO, Ben that most certainly is not TRUE LOL )

I am messing with you a bit… bit I’m actually being serious too. A good practicing confessional Lutheran is much closer to being a good Catholic than an marginal Lutheran.

Frankly, I’m much more comfortable at a Catholic church than in a non-confessional Lutheran church. I was glad to have my third child have Catholic Godparents (sponsors).

Now… I very well could be nuts. But in my defense keep in mind that before he was Pope, Joseph Cardinal Razinger even mulled the idea that the Augsburg Confesions could be considered Catholic.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I am messing with you a bit… bit I’m actually being serious too. A good practicing confessional Lutheran is much closer to being a good Catholic than an marginal Lutheran.

Frankly, I’m much more comfortable at a Catholic church than in a non-confessional Lutheran church. I was glad to have my third child have Catholic Godparents (sponsors).

Now… I very well could be nuts. But in my defense keep in mind that before he was Pope, Joseph Cardinal Razinger even mulled the idea that the Augsburg Confesions could be considered Catholic.

 

[studentoflove]

That’s unfortunate in my opinion; if she accepted the Lutheran confessions, she’d be more ‘Catholic’ than if she didn’t.

The reason she sees error is because she sees the truth of the Catholic Church. She comes to Mass every Sunday. She has started her journey already. She asked me a week ago if I wanted her to become Catholic. I said of course. But told her that is between her and God. I can only share what I know about the faith and support her. We also have two Catholic sons. I don’t push her.

 

[MaryT777]

The reason she sees error is because she sees the truth of the Catholic Church. She comes to Mass every Sunday. She has started her journey already. She asked me a week ago if I wanted her to become Catholic. I said of course. But told her that is between her and God. I can only share what I know about the faith and support her. We also have two Catholic sons. I don’t push her.

That’s the best way to approach this and I admire you for that. It IS indeed between her and God and sharing what you know and planting seeds is for all of us.
The HS will do the rest.

Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[JonNC]

=PJM;10670185]Hello again Jon; I KNEW I’d be hering from you.

The “grounds are clearly biblical” One God; His One set of Faith beliefs; in and through His Only One Church.

To that I say amen.

WOW!
That MY friend is the wildest claim I have ever heard you make

Really, Pat? How is it a ild claim to say that the singular truth is in our Savior and the written word?

The Bible, which I assume is what we ARE speaking of here, was completely authored by the end of the First Century or VERY early in the second Century at the latest.

The Church [singular] did not exist without the Bible unitl 1517. WHAT evidence do you have? Are you implying that our PERFECT God waited for Luther to expose His religious truths?

I believe you misunderstood. I said: No, that would be preposterous, and it isn’t what Lutherans believe. He exposed His singular truths in His Son, and further in the written word. The written word* did not **come into existence in 1517. *

So Jon MY FRIEND; how does one read Matthew 16:15-19 and come away with God being Okeydookie wirh competing faiths, religions and churches. As I Recall; Christ our perfect God said: 'onYou Peter and “my church” … Wheres the wiggle room in that statement?

We don’t deny that the Church is built on the confession of St. Peter. I don’t think He at all is ok with competing doctrines.

God’s Continued Blessing MY Friend!

And also with you, Pat.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

The reason she sees error is because she sees the truth of the Catholic Church. She comes to Mass every Sunday. She has started her journey already. She asked me a week ago if I wanted her to become Catholic. I said of course. But told her that is between her and God. I can only share what I know about the faith and support her. We also have two Catholic sons. I don’t push her.

I think you’re wise in letting her come to your Catholic faith slowly - frankly with the children being Catholic this is right and good.

I’m curious as to what she sees in the confessions as being un-Catholic (besides the obvious rants about the pope) - if you have the time to share. No worries if not!

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;10671966]To that I say amen.

me too:thumbsup:

Really, Pat? How is it a ild claim to say that the singular truth is in our Savior and the written word?

Jon, I always enjoy our discussions; but I’m lost here. Can you rephrase your comment?

I believe you misunderstood. I said: No, that would be preposterous, and it isn’t what Lutherans believe. He exposed His singular truths in His Son, and further in the written word. The written word* did not ***come into existence in 1517.

Awww Now I get it. Keep in mind Jon I’m 68 and Irish to boot.

We don’t deny that the Church is built on the confession of St. Peter. I don’t think He at all is ok with competing doctrines.

OK:shrug: So I kinda recall asking you this once before. Why are you not then a Catholic?

Continued Blessings MY friend!

 

[studentoflove]

Hey Ben,

I don’t really want to speak for my wife. She has lots of issues with the Lutheran Church and of what she was taught when she was younger and not taught at her Lutheran college, She was taught by some Lutheran elders that Catholics weren’t really Christians and that Catholics will go to hell. Maybe she’ll get on here sometime when she’s ready. Her faith in God is part of the reason I fell in love with her. I dont really want to dive too deep into all this with her at this time. She has a tough time with all of this. Her parents are very strong and faithful Lutherans. It is hard for her. She feels it will hurt her parents when she tells them what she believes. I understand. Ill wait to have this conversation with her.

 

[benjohnson]

Hey Ben,

I don’t really want to speak for my wife. She has lots of issues with the Lutheran Church and of what she was taught when she was younger and not taught at her Lutheran college, She was taught by some Lutheran elders that Catholics weren’t really Christians and that Catholics will go to hell. Maybe she’ll get on here sometime when she’s ready. Her faith in God is part of the reason I fell in love with her. I dont really want to dive too deep into all this with her at this time. She has a tough time with all of this. Her parents are very strong and faithful Lutherans. It is hard for her. She feels it will hurt her parents when she tells them what she believes. I understand. Ill wait to have this conversation with her.

I’m saddened that she was taught so incorrectly - Poor catechesis is defiantly a problem in our church

May she find peace with her parents in God’s time.

 

[studentoflove]

Yeah, I think it has been a problem with our Church too.

 

[Tomster]

I am messing with you a bit… bit I’m actually being serious too. A good practicing confessional Lutheran is much closer to being a good Catholic than an marginal Lutheran.

Frankly, I’m much more comfortable at a Catholic church than in a non-confessional Lutheran church. I was glad to have my third child have Catholic Godparents (sponsors).

Now… I very well could be nuts. But in my defense keep in mind that before he was Pope, Joseph Cardinal Razinger even mulled the idea that the Augsburg Confesions could be considered Catholic.

You’re right Ben. As Cardinal Ratzinger and as Pope Benedict XVI the man mulled over a great many things. And, as Catholics, we believe truth can be found in what seemingly are the strangest places. No slam intended here. And the Catholic Church has always championed the cause of all sincere truthseekers. Always! Our greatest theologians throughout history confirm this, St. Thomas Aquinas being one. You and I, as sincere seekers of truth, both know that separating fact from fiction, truth from error can be a daunting task if left to our own devices. Each of us, one and all, need help in this area.

 

[Tomster]

You’re right Ben. As Cardinal Ratzinger and as Pope Benedict XVI the man mulled over a great many things. And, as Catholics, we believe truth can be found in what seemingly are the strangest places. No slam intended here. And the Catholic Church has always championed the cause of all sincere truthseekers. Always! Our greatest theologians throughout history confirm this, St. Thomas Aquinas being one. You and I, as sincere seekers of truth, both know that separating fact from fiction, truth from error can be a daunting task if left to our own devices. Each of us, one and all, need help in this area.

Ben,

I have come up with what I think to be a good outline of Lutheran doctrine. Read it over and critque it if you will. Add or subtract from it but please give us good reasons why.

1. Original justice was connatural to Adam, like sight to the eyes.
2. Original sin (loss of original justice) has, therefore, corrupted intrinsically human nature in such a way that man is no longer capable of doing any good at all.
3. By original sin human reason has degenerated and free will no longer exists.
4. Therefore, man is no longer responsible for his acts, especially since he is tyrannically dominated by concupiscence, which is intrinsically sinful even in its instinctive movements.
5. Man, fallen through original sin, is incurable, so deeply that not even God can heal him anymore. Therefore the Redemption is entirely a work extrinsic to us, a work done by Christ, who substitutes Himself for us in order to pay the penalty of our sins to the divine justice (penal substitution). Human justification is done extrinsically - in a negative way, i.e., by covering up sin (not by removing it), and in a positive way, i.e., by attributing to us the holiness and the merits of Christ.
6. There is no habitual grace in us; actual grace is not a power or a quality of the soul, but it is God Himself working in us.
7. The only good act man can do is the act of fiducial faith or abandonment of self to God, by which he confides in His mercy and trusts that his sins have been pardoned.
8. Consequently, the sacraments have no longer any raison d’etre: Luther keeps baptism, penance (by which the remission of sins is declared but not effected), and the Supper (which is no longer the Mass). The bread and wine in the Eucharist remain as they are, but Christ makes Himself present in them (companation), not through the consecration alone, but also by virtue of the faith of the faithful.
9. The monarchical Church with its hierarchy is a human institution: there is no intermediary between the individual and God. The only source from which man can and must draw divine truth is the Bible, interpreted individually under the illumination of God (free thought and inquiry). Tradition has only a human value. The true Church of Christ is the invisible Church (influence of Wycliff and Huss).
10. The denial of indulgences, of purgatory, of the invocation of the saints, of prayers for the dead.

 

[benjohnson]

Tomster, please keep in mind that a poor Lutheran at best, so I very well could be horribly wrong in my responses.

Jon, I really invite correction and would consider it a privilege to be set right!

1. Original justice was connatural to Adam, like sight to the eyes.

Sounds good! I think we would tend to use other adjectives like Grace, but the idea is the same - Adam was complete and whole.

1. Original sin (loss of original justice) has, therefore, corrupted intrinsically human nature in such a way that man is no longer capable of doing any good at all.

1. By original sin human reason has degenerated and free will no longer exists.

Lutherans are famous for our diminished view of free will - but I wouldn’t go this far. Even before knowing the grace of God, we are capable of good deeds that are beneath us. It would be entirely within our means to share our food with the starving for example. What theses good deeds would lack is Grace that comes from Faith and God.

Personally, I think God is more happy with those that sill do good, but I think that’s a private thought and not necessary for Lutherans to know.

1. Therefore, man is no longer responsible for his acts, especially since he is tyrannically dominated by concupiscence, which is intrinsically sinful even in its instinctive movements.

I think (again, I could be wrong) that we would say Man will be held accountable for his un-repentant acts.

1. Man, fallen through original sin, is incurable, so deeply that not even God can heal him anymore. Therefore the Redemption is entirely a work extrinsic to us, a work done by Christ, who substitutes Himself for us in order to pay the penalty of our sins to the divine justice (penal substitution). Human justification is done extrinsically - in a negative way, i.e., by covering up sin (not by removing it), and in a positive way, i.e., by attributing to us the holiness and the merits of Christ.

You’ve probably heard about Luther’s “dung piles covered with snow” analogy. In modern times, it would be easy to think that Luther is stating that humans are perpetually ‘dung’ - but in Luther’s time the dung pile was a symbol of a farmer doing well as it was stockpiled fertilizer. It was also understood to be dirty as well - so the analogy was that not only does Christ cover our sins, but that being ‘boastful’ was also one of those sins.

Lutheran’s tend to think of Christ acting upon us to cover and remove sin - we don’t think we purge our own sins. In time, we are regenerated into Christ - so it’s not just that Christ covers us and disguises us as well. A little of column A and a little of column B

It should probably be an axiom of logic that analogies involving dung eventually break down.

I’m not sure of the ‘penal substitution’ idea - I know we shy away from declaring the Father as wrath filled. Jesus Christ died for our sins, but I don’t think it was exclusively to balance out the justice of the Father, more of a atonement for our sins. This area is really beyond my merge knowledge! So I’m probably wrong!

1. There is no habitual grace in us; actual grace is not a power or a quality of the soul, but it is God Himself working in us.

I think we would say that there’s plenty of Grace within us if we cooperate - and it comes from God.

1. The only good act man can do is the act of fiducial faith or abandonment of self to God, by which he confides in His mercy and trusts that his sins have been pardoned.

I’m not so sure we can even claim to have even marginally effected our Salvation. God not only lowers a rope to save us, but often times has to whack us over the head to get us to notice the rope, and even then, In my case, he had to tie the rope around my waist even as I tried to set fire to the rope and bite it with my teeth.

1. Consequently, the sacraments have no longer any raison d’etre: Luther keeps baptism, penance (by which the remission of sins is declared but not effected), and the Supper (which is no longer the Mass). The bread and wine in the Eucharist remain as they are, but Christ makes Himself present in them (companation), not through the consecration alone, but also by virtue of the faith of the faithful.

For us, this conclusion would be wrong - for because of our dim view of human nature, it makes the Sacraments even more important not less. Our view of the sacraments is penultimate - they impart the Grace that we can not give to ourselves.

We would claim we have Mass. The word ‘mass’ is a bitt odd as it’s a colloquialism from the Latin dismissal “ite missa est” so we tend to use the more formal world in similar fashion to the Eastern Orthodox. Our Mass is so good, Catholics even took the “And with your spirit” from our third setting.

I’m not sure we would say that Body and Blood is dependent on the faith of those present. For me, I would say it is present despite my doubts and fears.

(see next part)

 

[benjohnson]

(see previous part)

1. The monarchical Church with its hierarchy is a human institution: there is no intermediary between the individual and God. The only source from which man can and must draw divine truth is the Bible, interpreted individually under the illumination of God (free thought and inquiry). Tradition has only a human value. The true Church of Christ is the invisible Church (influence of Wycliff and Huss).

There are shades of this in Lutheran thought - that the church can make mistakes. But this just makes the church that much more worthy of study, correction and love.

I think we enjoy free thought and inquiry - but there are truths that may not be countered . Remember, we’re the ones with the ‘giant book of rules’

I would also say we place a high value on Tradition - we just correct it with Scripture if it errors.

And… we’re stinkers! We claim to be the Church. The ‘invisible church’ is a idea that may or may not be true and it isn’t really a concern for us, as we don’t need the idea to recognize our own validity.

1. The denial of indulgences, of purgatory, of the invocation of the saints, of prayers for the dead.

We deny paid indulgences, and take heart in the greatest indulgence from God. We deny purgatory as toll house, but know that purgation is necessary. We believe in the communion of Saints. We pray for those gone before us, trusting in Christ Jesus.

That said… present-day Catholic practices and theology in these matters doesn’t get me angry. I’ve said before, that if I find myself in purgatory, I would be crying tears of joy to know that Jesus is waiting for me.

Thanks for the opportunity! And please keep in mind that I’m most likely wrong!

 

[JonNC]

May I, Tomster?

=Tomster;10674468]Ben,

I have come up with what I think to be a good outline of Lutheran doctrine. Read it over and critque it if you will. Add or subtract from it but please give us good reasons why.

1. Original justice was connatural to Adam, like sight to the eyes.

1. Original sin (loss of original justice) has, therefore, corrupted intrinsically human nature in such a way that man is no longer capable of doing any good at all.

1. By original sin human reason has degenerated and free will no longer exists.

On 2, add …without grace.
On 3, add … to come to justifying faith, though free will does exist to reject it once regenerate.

1. Therefore, man is no longer responsible for his acts, especially since he is tyrannically dominated by concupiscence, which is intrinsically sinful even in its instinctive movements.

I wouldn’t say that, or eternal condemnation would not exist, and we know it does.

1. Man, fallen through original sin, is incurable, so deeply that not even God can heal him anymore. Therefore the Redemption is entirely a work extrinsic to us, a work done by Christ, who substitutes Himself for us in order to pay the penalty of our sins to the divine justice (penal substitution). Human justification is done extrinsically - in a negative way, i.e., by covering up sin (not by removing it), and in a positive way, i.e., by attributing to us the holiness and the merits of Christ.

Contradictory, since Christ is God.

1. There is no habitual grace in us; actual grace is not a power or a quality of the soul, but it is God Himself working in us.

Ok, which, incidentally, contradicts #5.

1. The only good act man can do is the act of fiducial faith or abandonment of self to God, by which he confides in His mercy and trusts that his sins have been pardoned.

Ok, but we recognize this as impossible without grace. See # 6.

1. Consequently, the sacraments have no longer any raison d’etre: Luther keeps baptism, penance (by which the remission of sins is declared but not effected), and the Supper (which is no longer the Mass). The bread and wine in the Eucharist remain as they are, but Christ makes Himself present in them (companation), not through the consecration alone, but also by virtue of the faith of the faithful.

Absolutely not!! The sacraments are means of grace, and that is clearly their reason for existence. Baptism is regenerative. Remission of sins in confession/Holy Absolution is both declared and effected. The bread and wine do not remain as they are, but once consecrated are the body and blood of Christ. There is clearly a change, but we do not express it in metaphysical, Aristotelian terms. I am not familiar with the term companation, but assume it means something similar to impanation, which we reject.
Further, we also hold that neither the faith of the celebrant, nor the faith of the one receiving, determines Christ’s presence, or Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians is moot. Christ’s presence in the sacrament is by the power of the Holy Spirit, when the pastor speaks the verba, and those receiving receive for forgiveness of sins, or to their own condemnation if they do not discern the body and blood.

1. The monarchical Church with its hierarchy is a human institution: there is no intermediary between the individual and God. The only source from which man can and must draw divine truth is the Bible, interpreted individually under the illumination of God (free thought and inquiry). Tradition has only a human value. The true Church of Christ is the invisible Church (influence of Wycliff and Huss).

Not entirely. The confessions speak of the Church as the congregation of saints (believers), where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. Administration of the sacraments requires a visible Church. We recognize Christ as the sole mediator between man and God the Father.

1. The denial of indulgences, of purgatory, of the invocation of the saints, of prayers for the dead.

Indulgences - true.
Purgatory - in the sense of an intermediate state/place - true, but not in terms of the necessity of purgation/cleansing for entry into Heaven. And even this denial is more a result of what the Reformers viewed as abuses surrounding it - indulgences, private masses, etc.
Invocation of the saints - true, but only because there is no scriptural command, example or promise regarding it.
prayers for the dead - not true. Prayers for the dead are often found in Lutheran funeral rites.

Jon

 

[studentoflove]

Jon,

Don’t stop seeking the real truth. You are almost Catholic. Great Gospel at church today. John 13. Jesus gives his last commandment. John 13

“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say unto you. A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

Jesus gave tough love also. Like when you have to take the keys from your grandpa because it is not safe for him to drive. This will not be pleasant! But it will be out of love.

So I say this out of love to you Jon. Much of what your say and believe is wrong. There is only One Church. Period. And it did not come from Martin Luther less than 500 years ago. And NO to whatever your response to that is. There is One Church. Just as Jesus intended and told us.

St. Paul says:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

 

[steido01]

You are almost Catholic.

You’ll find most Confessional Lutherans are.

benjohnson:

Frankly, I’m much more comfortable at a Catholic church than in a non-confessional Lutheran church.

I’m in the same boat. Some of the Lutheran churches here are trying a little too hard to reach the evangelical folks in the area, at the expense of Divine Service and quality sermons. The local Catholic parish, on the other hand, hasn’t caved in and the priest could be a Lutheran preacher with his clear sermons on Law and Gospel. Ironically, my marginally-Catholic wife is the opposite! God sure has a sense of humor. Oh well - I’ll suffer a low-liturgy service if it strengthens her faith. Baby steps, right?

 

[benjohnson]

God sure has a sense of humor. Oh well - I’ll suffer a low-liturgy service if it strengthens her faith. Baby steps, right?

Praise God for his sense of humor! A high-church Lutheran stuck in a low-liturgy Catholic Mass is rather amusing.

Just think… it could be worse for you. Our Catholic friends do have a Charismatic movement… .