Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[JonNC]

Some days, I read these boards and I am disheartened by how far apart Catholics and Lutherans seem to be.
And then there are days like these. Hope is a great thing.

I actually think there is less distance between Lutheran and Catholic theologians, than there is between Lutheran and Catholic apologists.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

Oh, Amen!!!

Luther, as quoted in the Formula of Concord:

and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

Jon,

Interesting that he compares heat and light as inseparable. GIven that analogy, and that all scripture is inspired and inerrant, does Luther than have a problem with James 2:26?

James 2:26 compares “faith and works” to the “body and spirit”.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

The body and spirit analogy makes it clear that faith is inseparable from works. They go together or DEATH occurs.

Salvation is by Faith and Works…not Faith Alone…not by Works alone.

Thoughts?

Pork

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Interesting that he compares heat and light as inseparable. GIven that analogy, and that all scripture is inspired and inerrant, does Luther than have a problem with James 2:26?

James 2:26 compares “faith and works” to the “body and spirit”.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

The body and spirit analogy makes it clear that faith is inseparable from works. They go together or DEATH occurs.

Salvation is by Faith and Works…not Faith Alone…not by Works alone.

Thoughts?

Pork

Pork,
From our perspective, relying on St. Paul in numerous places, justification is operative by grace through faith alone, but faith can never be alone, that is, without works. Luther makes this point often. He asks the question, of what value is faith that does not work, that has no love/charity for our fellow man. For faith to be a true, saving faith, it must be a faith that works. Just as Catholics are leary of "faith alone ", Lutherans are leary of “faith and works”. Both are short hand, and don’t give the whole story of our respective views of soteriology. What we do believe, I think together, however, is that we are justified by grace through faith, faith that works through love. I think that is James’ point as well.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Pork,
From our perspective, relying on St. Paul in numerous places, justification is operative by grace through faith alone, but faith can never be alone, that is, without works. Luther makes this point often. He asks the question, of what value is faith that does not work, that has no love/charity for our fellow man. For faith to be a true, saving faith, it must be a faith that works. Just as Catholics are leary of "faith alone ", Lutherans are leary of “faith and works”. Both are short hand, and don’t give the whole story of our respective views of soteriology. What we do believe, I think together, however, is that we are justified by grace through faith, faith that works through love.

Where in the BoC would I find such readings? I may have already missed it. I seem to get lost easy lol:shrug:

 

[Porknpie]

Pork,
From our perspective, relying on St. Paul in numerous places, justification is operative by grace through faith alone, but faith can never be alone, that is, without works. Luther makes this point often. He asks the question, of what value is faith that does not work, that has no love/charity for our fellow man. For faith to be a true, saving faith, it must be a faith that works. Just as Catholics are leary of "faith alone ", Lutherans are leary of “faith and works”. Both are short hand, and don’t give the whole story of our respective views of soteriology. What we do believe, I think together, however, is that we are justified by grace through faith, faith that works through love. I think that is James’ point as well.

Jon,

So Luther would agree then that faith can not be completed without works? I still get confused on this with Luther…salvation is by Faith & Works…that they are inseparable like the body is from the spirit? True?..

James 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.

I’m just confirming that Evangelical Catholic description of yours Jon.

 

[benjohnson]

I actually think there is less distance between Lutheran and Catholic theologians, than there is between Lutheran and Catholic apologists.

Jon

Isn’t that the truth!

It reminds of the different ‘models’ of the atom that physicists have - some simplified models are easier to use, some complex models can make more correct predictions, and some really strange models are used to closer describe what is happening in nature.

None of these models is entirely more useful than other models - you almost have to learn them all in order to even begin to understand the atom.

I would maintain that understanding the Lutheran and Catholic approach is beneficial for both Lutherans and Catholics - even if one dons’t entirely agree with the ‘other’ approach.

 

[Tomster]

Isn’t that the truth!

It reminds of the different ‘models’ of the atom that physicists have - some simplified models are easier to use, some complex models can make more correct predictions, and some really strange models are used to closer describe what is happening in nature.

None of these models is entirely more useful than other models - you almost have to learn them all in order to even begin to understand the atom.

I would maintain that understanding the Lutheran and Catholic approach is beneficial for both Lutherans and Catholics - even if one dons’t entirely agree with the ‘other’ approach.

One model that St. Paul used, doctrinally speaking, is that the Church is Christ’s One Mystical Body. World-wide Lutheranism has had and is having some trouble with this doctrine.

 

[benjohnson]

One model that St. Paul used, doctrinally speaking, is that the Church is Christ’s One Mystical Body.

We agee!

World-wide Lutheranism has had and is having some trouble with this doctrine.

Sin is our downfall!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sin is our downfall!

Join the club. lol

 

[Tomster]

We agee!

Sin is our downfall!

Actually, Ben, Luther rejected the order of the Mystical Body laid down by Christ and made self the center of the world. Protestant theologians take pleasure in the thought that Christ is the center of Luther’s system; nothing is more untrue, and nothing is more in contradiction with the conclusions of an inquiry into the process of Luther’s evolution. Although it speaks often of Christ, the center of Luther’s theology is not Christ but man.

The central point of Luther’s of onslaught on the Mystical Body of Christ was directed against the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacrifice of the Mystical Body, the visible expression of our fallen race’s solidarity with Christ and of our dependence on Calvary for the possibility of presenting fully ordered homage to the Blessed Trinity.

 

[MaryT777]

One model that St. Paul used, doctrinally speaking, is that the Church is Christ’s One Mystical Body. World-wide Lutheranism has had and is having some trouble with this doctrine.

Yes, they truly reject it.
Some posters here LCMS are not at all indicative of the outright REJECTION Of many
Catholic doctrines as presented in the Concord book and the teachings right online.

 

[JonNC]

Actually, Ben, Luther rejected the order of the Mystical Body laid down by Christ and made self the center of the world. Protestant theologians take pleasure in the thought that Christ is the center of Luther’s system; nothing is more untrue, and nothing is more in contradiction with the conclusions of an inquiry into the process of Luther’s evolution. Although it speaks often of Christ, the center of Luther’s theology is not Christ but man.

The central point of Luther’s of onslaught on the Mystical Body of Christ was directed against the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacrifice of the Mystical Body, the visible expression of our fallen race’s solidarity with Christ and of our dependence on Calvary for the possibility of presenting fully ordered homage to the Blessed Trinity.

What’s curious is that this view seems to contradict the view other Catholics present about Lutherans, claiming that our monergistic understanding of justification makes Lutheranism too much about God, and not enough about man.

Myself, ISTM that both views seems to miss the point about Lutheranism, but that’s ok because too often we tend to miss the point about Catholicism.

They made the sacrament which they should accept from God, namely, the body and blood of Christ, into a sacrifice and have offered it to the selfsame God… Furthermore, they do not regard Christ’s body and blood as a sacrifice of thanksgiving, but as a sacrifice of works in which they do not thank God for His grace, but obtain merits for themselves and others and first and foremost, secure grace. Thus Christ has not won grace for us, but we want to win grace ourselves through our works by offering to God His Son’s body and blood. - Luther

Luther’s entire point is grace, freely offered as a gift, for Christ’s sake, not to separate us from Christ, but to bring us to Him. If we err on either side - too much emphasis on what we do, or too much emphasis on what Christ has done - we err on the side of the latter.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

What’s curious is that this view seems to contradict the view other Catholics present about Lutherans, claiming that our monergistic understanding of justification makes Lutheranism too much about God, and not enough about man.

Myself, ISTM that both views seems to miss the point about Lutheranism, but that’s ok because too often we tend to miss the point about Catholicism.

Luther’s entire point is grace, freely offered as a gift, for Christ’s sake, not to separate us from Christ, but to bring us to Him. If we err on either side - too much emphasis on what we do, or too much emphasis on what Christ has done - we err on the side of the latter.

Jon

I would state that I mostly see that Lutherans here, and maybe around the world, view humanity in a negative way. As Catholics, we believe the human is a diamond and sin piles on top to cover up the diamond. Lutherans that I have spoken with tell me that we are a pile of “****” and only by God’s grace do we become a diamond. Does that sound about right?

 

[Tomster]

What’s curious is that this view seems to contradict the view other Catholics present about Lutherans, claiming that our monergistic understanding of justification makes Lutheranism too much about God, and not enough about man.

Myself, ISTM that both views seems to miss the point about Lutheranism, but that’s ok because too often we tend to miss the point about Catholicism.

Luther’s entire point is grace, freely offered as a gift, for Christ’s sake, not to separate us from Christ, but to bring us to Him. If we err on either side - too much emphasis on what we do, or too much emphasis on what Christ has done - we err on the side of the latter.

Jon

Actually, Jon, Dr. Luther’s revolt was that of our individuality and sense life against the exigencies of the supernatural order instituted by God. It was an attempt to remain attached to Christ, while rejecting the order established by Christ for our return to God.

 

[MaryT777]

I would state that I mostly see that Lutherans here, and maybe around the world, view humanity in a negative way. As Catholics, we believe the human is a diamond and sin piles on top to cover up the diamond. Lutherans that I have spoken with tell me that we are a pile of “****” and only by God’s grace do we become a diamond. Does that sound about right?

“dung heaps covered with snow” is what I’ve heard Luther stated but I have never verified it but given it was said in this LCMS I assume it’s correct.

 

[Tomster]

I would state that I mostly see that Lutherans here, and maybe around the world, view humanity in a negative way. As Catholics, we believe the human is a diamond and sin piles on top to cover up the diamond. Lutherans that I have spoken with tell me that we are a pile of “****” and only by God’s grace do we become a diamond. Does that sound about right?

abp,

I think what you have asked is only partially true. According to Dr. Luther’s fallible theology, we remain “piles of *****”. But of course Dr. Luther’s theology has always been subject to revision within world-wide Lutheranism due to their unchanging dogma of individual private judgment.

 

[MaryT777]

abp,

I think what you have asked is only partially true. According to Dr. Luther’s fallible theology, we remain “piles of *****”. But of course Dr. Luther’s theology has always been subject to revision within world-wide Lutheranism due to their unchanging dogma of individual private judgment.

Yes which is evidenced by the posts by Lutherans on this forum.

Justification…ironed out with the LWF/ELCA not the LCMS/Wels and on and on it goest.

 

[benjohnson]

“dung heaps covered with snow” is what I’ve heard Luther stated but I have never verified it but given it was said in this LCMS I assume it’s correct.

It’s a rather famous quote - but be carefully, not only does the dung refer to our depravity but to also out boasting. For having dung in 1500’s German meant your farm was doing well and that your next year’s crop would be fertilized.

For all the bombastic quotes from Luther about this, keep in mind that this has to do with Justification - not Sanctification. Or at least as I understand it. Probably poorly.

 

[JonNC]

Actually, Jon, Dr. Luther’s revolt was that of our individuality and sense life against the exigencies of the supernatural order instituted by God. It was an attempt to remain attached to Christ, while rejecting the order established by Christ for our return to God.

Actually, it was an attempt to return to the order established by Christ, and reject it, that order being a recognition of the role of grace through faith, and a proper response of the regenerate to that grace.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

abp,

I think what you have asked is only partially true. According to Dr. Luther’s fallible theology, we remain “piles of *****”. But of course Dr. Luther’s theology has always been subject to revision within world-wide Lutheranism due to their unchanging dogma of individual private judgment.

Regarding the oft quoted phrase, while no doubt it is the type of phrase Luther might have used, I’m not actually sure he said it. So, let’s see what he actually says, regarding the inward change of the regenerate:

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost.

Just as the word of God became flesh, so it is certainly also necessary that the flesh may become word. In other words: God becomes man so that man may become God. Thus power becomes powerless so that weakness may become powerful.

And that we are so filled with “all the fullness of God,” that is said in the Hebrew manner, meaning that we are filled in every way in which He fills, and become full of God, showered with all gifts and grace and filled with His Spirit, Who is to make us bold, and enlighten us with His light, and live His life in us, that His bliss make us blest, His love awaken love in us. In short, that everything that He is and can do, be fully in us and mightily work, that we be completely deified, not that we have a particle or only some pieces of God, but all fullness. Much has been written about how man should be deified; there they made ladders, on which one should climb into heaven, and much of that sort of thing. Yet it is sheer piecemeal effort; but here [in faith] the right and closest way to get there is indicated,** that you become full of God**, that you lack in no thing, but have everything in one heap, that everything that you speak, think, walk, in sum, your whole life be completely divine.

In short,

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow

In my confirmation, these words were spoken by the pastor:
“The Father in Heaven for Jesus’ sake, renew and increase in thee the gift of the Holy Ghost, to thy strengthening in faith, to thy growth in grace, to thy patience in suffering, and to the blessed hope of everlasting life.”

The perception of Lutheranism as you present it may be your perception, or perhaps it might be the perception of some polemics you have read, but it is not the reality of Lutheranism in which I was brought up, and it is not the reality of Lutheranism as I have experienced it. In fact, it is not the reality of what Lutheranism actually is.

Jon