Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[MaryT777]

Lutheranism is right in the Concord book. Perhaps this LCMS is wrong when they openly state that Luther said we are “dung heaps covered with snow?”

No different than a poster posting a textbook version of Catholicism.

 

[JonNC]

Lutheranism is right in the Concord book. Perhaps this LCMS is wrong when they openly state that Luther said we are “dung heaps covered with snow?”

No different than a poster posting a textbook version of Catholicism.

Old thread on the subject:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6393997

And Dave Armstrong

socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/10/has-martin-luthers-snow-covered.html

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Jon,

Have you ever found a teaching of Luther or the present day Lutheran Church that you consider wrong?

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Have you ever found a teaching of Luther or the present day Lutheran Church that you consider wrong?

Really two different questions.

Of Luther himself, clearly yes. Of the confessions, not something I would consider flat-out wrong. Or the way the LCMS understands the confessions, not really.

My criticism of the modern Lutheran Church is more in the area of practice. We don’t encourage private confession enough. Some Lutherans have shown a callous disregard and irreverence in the way they handle the reliquae after the sacramental act. I am fearful of a gradual swerve into Protestantism, in that some tend to act Reformed, some want our worship to appear more mega-church.

On here I often speak of the things that would have to happen for me to come to communion with the Bishop of Rome (or Orthodoxy). I don’t often mention that, while these things could draw me in, there is also the possibility that Lutheranism, even the LCMS, could push me out.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Really two different questions.

Of Luther himself, clearly yes. Of the confessions, not something I would consider flat-out wrong. Or the way the LCMS understands the confessions, not really.

My criticism of the modern Lutheran Church is more in the area of practice. We don’t encourage private confession enough. Some Lutherans have shown a callous disregard and irreverence in the way they handle the reliquae after the sacramental act. I am fearful of a gradual swerve into Protestantism, in that some tend to act Reformed, some want our worship to appear more mega-church.

On here I often speak of the things that would have to happen for me to come to communion with the Bishop of Rome (or Orthodoxy). I don’t often mention that, while these things could draw me in, there is also the possibility that Lutheranism, even the LCMS, could push me out.

Jon

Jon

It is worth noting that Pope Benedict as a seminary professor suggested that the Augsburg Confession is a Catholic creed that could unite Lutherans with Roman Catholics.

 

[joe371]

If I may venture to say something that may be incorrect:

The Lutheran position is that the confessions are a right reflection of the Scriptures. But even though they are true, we don’t claim that they are infallible.

 

[joe371]

Jon

It is worth noting that Pope Benedict as a seminary professor suggested that the Augsburg Confession is a Catholic creed that could unite Lutherans with Roman Catholics.

Man, reunification would be so awesome. Do you have that quote on you, by the way?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Man, reunification would be so awesome. Do you have that quote on you, by the way?

There are many articles on Pope Benedict’s affection for Martin Luther and his opinion that the Augsburg Confession can be considered a Roman Catholic creed.

churchandliturgy.blogspot.com/2006/06/trinity-2-presentation-of-augsburg.html

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/31st-august-1979/3/augsburg-visits-give-the-lutherans-added-hope

 

[aidanbradypop]

Really two different questions.

Of Luther himself, clearly yes. Of the confessions, not something I would consider flat-out wrong. Or the way the LCMS understands the confessions, not really.

My criticism of the modern Lutheran Church is more in the area of practice. We don’t encourage private confession enough. Some Lutherans have shown a callous disregard and irreverence in the way they handle the reliquae after the sacramental act. I am fearful of a gradual swerve into Protestantism, in that some tend to act Reformed, some want our worship to appear more mega-church.

On here I often speak of the things that would have to happen for me to come to communion with the Bishop of Rome (or Orthodoxy). I don’t often mention that, while these things could draw me in, there is also the possibility that Lutheranism, even the LCMS, could push me out.

Jon

That is interesting to hear about Lutherans having a “gradual swerve into Protestantism.” My wife works with a lady from Germany. She is a devout Lutheran but does not attend services. She states that the American Lutheranism is no longer Lutheranism but more Evangelical in nature and have left their roots. She went on to state, in her heavy German accent, that there is but one way to view the Confessions and it is not left up to personal revelation.

 

[aidanbradypop]

There are many articles on Pope Benedict’s affection for Martin Luther and his opinion that the Augsburg Confession can be considered a Roman Catholic creed.

churchandliturgy.blogspot.com/2006/06/trinity-2-presentation-of-augsburg.html

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/31st-august-1979/3/augsburg-visits-give-the-lutherans-added-hope

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/939/the_pope_martin_luther_and_our_time.aspx

 

[steido01]

That is interesting to hear about Lutherans having a “gradual swerve into Protestantism.” My wife works with a lady from Germany. She is a devout Lutheran but does not attend services. She states that the American Lutheranism is no longer Lutheranism but more Evangelical in nature and have left their roots.

:sad_yes: Some who call themselves Lutheran have certainly made that ‘gradual swerve’ into Protestantism; it is sad, but unsurprising, to see that this is driving away Christians who hold more orthodox beliefs. No denomination is immune to the pressures of ‘Americanism’ - or at least elements of something similar. But who knows? Maybe years from now historians will note this sad phenomenon to have been the catalyst for a great, worldwide reunification of orthodox Christians. May the Holy Spirit guide us.

She went on to state, in her heavy German accent, that there is but one way to view the Confessions and it is not left up to personal revelation.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

:sad_yes: Some who call themselves Lutheran have certainly made that ‘gradual swerve’ into Protestantism; it is sad, but unsurprising, to see that this is driving away Christians who hold more orthodox beliefs. No denomination is immune to the pressures of ‘Americanism’ - or at least elements of something similar. But who knows? Maybe years from now historians will note this sad phenomenon to have been the catalyst for a great, worldwide reunification of orthodox Christians. May the Holy Spirit guide us.

As a lifelong Lutheran and probably one of the older participants on this site, I have seen considerable change but am not all that concerned. In some ways it seems that Lutherans are less “catholic” than they used to be. Growing up in the metro NYC area, I was exposed to a style of Lutheranism that was strongly confessional and catholic [deep commitment to the Lutheran Confessions, weekly Mass, private confession, liturgical worship]. When the movement toward broadening Lutheran outreach took on more Protestant expressions, I was dismayed. There are some parishes I will never step into because they feel like Baptists [rock music, clergy in suits instead of vestments, hymns on overhead projectors, etc.].

But I am also fully aware that the typical Lutheran parish today celebrates the Eucharist weekly instead of twice a month like it was done in many areas of the nation up until maybe a few decades ago. The effort to re-enter into the apostolic succession, close affiliation with the Episcopal church and the addition of much more holy days [saints that were stripped from the Lutheran Ordo a century ago are now back in the Church Calendar]. I read an article in The Lutheran recently that proclaimed the Pope as being “our” Pope.

Aside from the 'Church Growth Movement" where Lutherans look ridiculous trying to act like Baptists, the Church is steadily returning to our Catholic roots, in my opinion.

 

[JonNC]

That is interesting to hear about Lutherans having a “gradual swerve into Protestantism.” My wife works with a lady from Germany. She is a devout Lutheran but does not attend services. She states that the American Lutheranism is no longer Lutheranism but more Evangelical in nature and have left their roots. She went on to state, in her heavy German accent, that there is but one way to view the Confessions and it is not left up to personal revelation.

Tell her I love her. She is absolutely right.

But tell her she needs to return to church for word and sacrament.
Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Tell her I love her. She is absolutely right.

Jon

So the ELCA would have a hard time in Germany with traditional Lutherans?

 

[JonNC]

So the ELCA would have a hard time in Germany with traditional Lutherans?

The ELCA has a hard time in America with traditional Lutherans.
But let’s be clear, there are many traditional Lutherans who choose to stay in the ELCA - to right the ship, and because of their parish home.

Jon

 

[joe371]

There are many articles on Pope Benedict’s affection for Martin Luther and his opinion that the Augsburg Confession can be considered a Roman Catholic creed.

churchandliturgy.blogspot.com/2006/06/trinity-2-presentation-of-augsburg.html

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/31st-august-1979/3/augsburg-visits-give-the-lutherans-added-hope

That is nice to know…

 

[benjohnson]

Hey brother Ben. So, it could, in certain places, wrongly reflect the scriptures?

It very well could!

We don’t at all claim that the confessions are a divinely inspired, so if there’s something wrong, we’d love to know. But… let me warn you… you’ll have trouble finding too much in error. (We do understand that the document was a product of it’s times, so no fair going on about how acerbic it is in some places)

So just the Bible i.e. even the early ecumenical councils that defined things like the Trinity, were not infallible. Or, were those catholic councils infallible decisions made by fallible men, like the fallible apostles, because God mystically and ineffably guided the whole process?

Doing a bit of research, the councils that we term ecumenical are only given that designation when we all agree they are ecumenical. Some councils - like the Second Council of Ephesus started off as an ecumenical council, but nobody thinks that now.

So I’m not sure how to answer your question, only that I’m thankful that history and God have placed all of us in a position to know and trust the Gospel.

 

[joe371]

benjohnson;10757136]It very well could!

We don’t at all claim that the confessions are a divinely inspired, so if there’s something wrong, we’d love to know. But… let me warn you… you’ll have trouble finding too much in error. (We do understand that the document was a product of it’s times, so no fair going on about how acerbic it is in some places)

This is what is wrong…Had you going there for a minute. Just being silly. LOL. I certainly am free of all authority and therefore am not qualified. No claim to divine inspiration? I did not know that. I am always learning here at CAF.

Doing a bit of research, the councils that we term ecumenical are only given that designation when we all agree they are ecumenical. Some councils - like the Second Council of Ephesus started off as an ecumenical council, but nobody thinks that now.

So I’m not sure how to answer your question, only that I’m thankful that history and God have placed all of us in a position to know and trust the Gospel.

The councils that resolved issues about the Trinity and Theotokos: were they divinely inspired, in your opinion?

 

[Luth123]

My criticism of the modern Lutheran Church is more in the area of practice. We don’t encourage private confession enough. Some Lutherans have shown a callous disregard and irreverence in the way they handle the reliquae after the sacramental act. I am fearful of a gradual swerve into Protestantism, in that some tend to act Reformed, some want our worship to appear more mega-church
…
Jon

Hey that would be me.

I do agree with Jon that the term “Lutheran” is a poor choice since the ELCA and LCMS are polarized on the area of practice. I use the term Protestant which I know Jon does not like , but it’s a better term since it highlights the ELCA, Methodist and Anglican open communion which is not something LCMS advocates.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Hey that would be me.

I do agree with Jon that the term “Lutheran” is a poor choice since the ELCA and LCMS are polarized on the area of practice. I use the term Protestant which I know Jon does not like , but it’s a better term since it highlights the ELCA, Methodist and Anglican open communion which is not something LCMS advocates.

Interestingly, I was a product of the LCMS that helped form the ELCA and honestly can’t see any difference in worship. The LCMS has some really nice chant settings for the Eucharist but the scope of music in the ELCA is just as impressive. There is a unique plain-chant that is universal among all Lutherans.

But I agree that the relationship with other Christians has been quite beneficial for Lutherans. We all have so much more in common than what separates us.