Lutheran Confessions - Infallible?

[Luth123]

Interestingly, I was a product of the LCMS that helped form the ELCA and honestly can’t see any difference in worship. The LCMS has some really nice chant settings for the Eucharist but the scope of music in the ELCA is just as impressive. There is a unique plain-chant that is universal among all Lutherans.

But I agree that the relationship with other Christians has been quite beneficial for Lutherans. We all have so much more in common than what separates us.

The ELCA and LCMS services really are about the same with both based on the Augsburg Confession. I went to an LCMS service years ago before I knew they were different nor did I know they were not in communion with ELCA.

The social or as Jon calls it practice is drasicly different. But private confession? That was considered a Catholic practice in my ELCA church. The unison confession of sins was all my ELCA church ever practiced.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The ELCA and LCMS services really are about the same with both based on the Augsburg Confession. I went to an LCMS service years ago before I know they were different and did not even know they were not in communion with ELCA.

The social or as Jon calls it practice is drasicly different. But private confession? That was considered a Catholic practice in my ELCA church. The unison confession of sins was all my ELCA church ever practiced.

Even in parishes that offer Saturday confessions hardly anyone goes. I made my first Easter confession before I was confirmed but that was basically expected. Otherwise I never went to private confession until I entered Valparaiso & Concordia Seminary - Ft Wayne.

 

[JonNC]

The ELCA and LCMS services really are about the same with both based on the Augsburg Confession. I went to an LCMS service years ago before I knew they were different nor did I know they were not in communion with ELCA.

The social or as Jon calls it practice is drasicly different. But private confession? That was considered a Catholic practice in my ELCA church. The unison confession of sins was all my ELCA church ever practiced.

For those Lutherans that consider private confession “a Catholic thing” I simply suggest The Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.
Talk about a failure of catechesis! It is a catholic thing, and we are catholic !

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Even in parishes that offer Saturday confessions hardly anyone goes. I made my first Easter confession before I was confirmed but that was basically expected. Otherwise I never went to private confession until I entered Valparaiso & Concordia Seminary - Ft Wayne.

Perhaps Concordia needs to press the issue more. While to require it can be considered legalistic, encouraging and regularly offering it is an obligation of the Church and each local parish.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Even in parishes that offer Saturday confessions hardly anyone goes. I made my first Easter confession before I was confirmed but that was basically expected. Otherwise I never went to private confession until I entered Valparaiso & Concordia Seminary - Ft Wayne.

I love Ft Wayne. It is a wonderful town. I enjoyed seeing the Amish. lol

For those Lutherans that consider private confession “a Catholic thing” I simply suggest The Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.
Talk about a failure of catechesis! It is a catholic thing, and we are catholic !

Jon

I hear that all too often around here. If it is considered “Catholic” then many shy away from it here. God forbid they appear Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

I love Ft Wayne. It is a wonderful town. I enjoyed seeing the Amish. lol

I hear that all too often around here. If it is considered “Catholic” then many shy away from it here. God forbid they appear Catholic.

Frankly, I’m tired of it from Lutherans. Not speaking of anyone here, but I do hear it from time to time.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Actually private confession is offered more often than many realize but in a less formal setting. Pastoral counseling often includes Holy Absolution. Some of my most rewarding experiences have been when I rec’d Absolution outside under the trees in the woods or merely just sitting with the Pastor in his office.

 

[JonNC]

Hey that would be me.

I do agree with Jon that the term “Lutheran” is a poor choice since the ELCA and LCMS are polarized on the area of practice. I use the term Protestant which I know Jon does not like , but it’s a better term since it highlights the ELCA, Methodist and Anglican open communion which is not something LCMS advocates.

It isn’t that I dislike the term protestant. It the inaccuracy of usage of the term that bothers me. It is used to present protestants as a monolithic “church” that has a single root, and has since splintered. It is used to portray all western non-Catholic communions as being somehow one communion that doesn’t agree, based on private interpretation. It is used to present a “protest” against the Catholic Church, when the fact is the term protestant comes from a protest of government restriction of religious free exercise at the 2nd Diet of Speyer. Most western non-Catholic groups were not a part of that - certainly not the Anglicans and their cousins the Methodists, etc.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Interestingly, I was a product of the LCMS that helped form the ELCA and honestly can’t see any difference in worship. The LCMS has some really nice chant settings for the Eucharist but the scope of music in the ELCA is just as impressive. There is a unique plain-chant that is universal among all Lutherans.

But I agree that the relationship with other Christians has been quite beneficial for Lutherans. We all have so much more in common than what separates us.

All true, but there has also been some damage to Lutheran doctrinal adherence in Lutheran synods such as the ELCA, which is in part because of what the LCMS would term unionism.
The LCMS is not opposed to dialogue. we have participated in dialogue with the USCCB, and are currently involved in dialogue with the ACNA.

Jon

 

[Tomyris]

I just thought I would jump in here with a thought.

If you see a tree through a window, you see a tree, as long as the window is decent. That seems to me to be what Protestants in general do. The Confessions are like a window through which an accurate picture of the tree can be seen. The window is not a tree because you can see a tree through it; it is a window; it does not need to be infallible.

Catholics, on the other hand, insist that the Church see a tree, and then the Church turns to you and tells you there is a tree there. You are not allowed to see the tree, you may only believe there is a tree there because the Church tells you there is one there, and no peeking.

I realize I am oversimplifying and making this overdrawn, but That Is What I Do.

 

[benjohnson]

The councils that resolved issues about the Trinity and Theotokos: were they divinely inspired, in your opinion?

I really don’t know - I think the Trinity and Theotokos can be sussed out of Scripture and the words of God if one is really, really, hyper smart. When you gather some of the best minds in christendom, it could very well be that they ‘figured it out.’

When we look at the Trinity an Theotokos and with our Bibles in hand - we can say, we’ll “Of course they’re in the Bible!” But if I handed a bible to an average guy and he digests it - he may very well come up with many of the heresies that we’ve had to defend against.

So I would say that the the Holy Spirit has given the church the grace needed to teach this truth, but as for the council itself, I could see how these bright and shining minds could very well know the truth without the direct guide of the Holy Spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

I just thought I would jump in here with a thought.

If you see a tree through a window, you see a tree, as long as the window is decent. That seems to me to be what Protestants in general do. The Confessions are like a window through which an accurate picture of the tree can be seen. The window is not a tree because you can see a tree through it; it is a window; it does not need to be infallible.

Catholics, on the other hand, insist that the Church see a tree, and then the Church turns to you and tells you there is a tree there. You are not allowed to see the tree, you may only believe there is a tree there because the Church tells you there is one there, and no peeking.

I realize I am oversimplifying and making this overdrawn, but That Is What I Do.

I don’t think so, friend.

The only way you know that there’s a tree is because the Window allows you to see the tree. The Window is the Church.

There is no other way for you to be able to know what a tree is, is through a Window.

You cannot know anything about the tree without the Window (Church).

 

[joe371]

I really don’t know - I think the Trinity and Theotokos can be sussed out of Scripture and the words of God if one is really, really, hyper smart. When you gather some of the best minds in christendom, it could very well be that they ‘figured it out.’

When we look at the Trinity an Theotokos and with our Bibles in hand - we can say, we’ll “Of course they’re in the Bible!” But if I handed a bible to an average guy and he digests it - he may very well come up with many of the heresies that we’ve had to defend against.

So I would say that the the Holy Spirit has given the church the grace needed to teach this truth, but as for the council itself, I could see how these bright and shining minds could very well know the truth without the direct guide of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gave the catholic church the grace needed to teach doctrinal truth even during those early catholic councils? If I was simply putting my trust in those councils, in terms of truth, based merely on the intelligence of those folks that were in charge, I might have some doubt. However, if John 16:13 can be trusted then I think it is safe to say that God preserved and transmitted truth during these convened councils. That’s just me though. Your thoughts?

 

[Luth123]

Frankly, I’m tired of it from Lutherans. Not speaking of anyone here, but I do hear it from time to time.

Jon

That was not my opinion, but an opinion of my ELCA Church and some long gone pastors. I also grew up with one side of of my parent’s family avid Catholics and the other avid Lutherans with Anabaptist roots.

Sorry for being so blunt but the following were common and are NOT my beliefs:
“The Pope is the devil, Luther proved half a century ago.” “We don’t pray to idols like all those Mary worshiping Catholics.” and on the other side “Those heretics made their own perverted Bible to attempt to justify their crimes.”

Criticizing the other denomination was pretty much minimum a weekly occurrence. There were no ecumenical relations back then or even respect. We have come a long way.

 

[JonNC]

That was not my opinion, but an opinion of my ELCA Church and some long gone pastors. I also grew up with one side of of my parent’s family avid Catholics and the other avid Lutherans with Anabaptist roots.

Sorry for being so blunt but the following were common and are NOT my beliefs:
“The Pope is the devil, Luther proved half a century ago.” “We don’t pray to idols like all those Mary worshiping Catholics.” and on the other side “Those heretics made their own perverted Bible to attempt to justify their crimes.”

Criticizing the other denomination was pretty much minimum a weekly occurrence. There were no ecumenical relations back then or even respect. We have come a long way.

A long way, indeed! Thank the Holy Spirit for His guidance.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

The Holy Spirit gave the catholic church the grace needed to teach doctrinal truth even during those early catholic councils? If I was simply putting my trust in those councils, in terms of truth, based merely on the intelligence of those folks that were in charge, I might have some doubt. However, if John 16:13 can be trusted then I think it is safe to say that God preserved and transmitted truth during these convened councils. That’s just me though. Your thoughts?

Christianity is the most unlikely of religions - it’s followers are outcasts, our God has been killed, and we never ever ‘fit in.’ . So I have to praise God and the Holy Spirit for seeing us through - but for my, my little particular trial is that I haven’t ever received a definite indication from the Holy Spirit. I know intellectually that he’s there with a big grin on his face watching me - but frankly I envy those who’s faith comes from the heart.

So forgive me in that I don’t immediacy proclaim the Holy Spirit when I know I should. I have faith and I trust - but it doesn’t come easy for me, as I’m one of the most guarded people I know.

I do however know that God appreciated a good joke, and so do I, so I know he loves me - we only have mirth for those we love.

 

[joe371]

Christianity is the most unlikely of religions - it’s followers are outcasts, our God has been killed, and we never ever ‘fit in.’ . So I have to praise God and the Holy Spirit for seeing us through - but for my, my little particular trial is that I haven’t ever received a definite indication from the Holy Spirit. I know intellectually that he’s there with a big grin on his face watching me - but frankly I envy those who’s faith comes from the heart.

So forgive me in that I don’t immediacy proclaim the Holy Spirit when I know I should. I have faith and I trust - but it doesn’t come easy for me, as I’m one of the most guarded people I know.

I do however know that God appreciated a good joke, and so do I, so I know he loves me - we only have mirth for those we love.

I feel the same way…except for the part about God being killed…but I think I see where you are going with that…

I almost forgot. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit gave the catholic church the grace needed to teach doctrinal truth even during those early catholic councils? If I was simply putting my trust in those councils, in terms of truth, based merely on the intelligence of those folks that were in charge, I might have some doubt. However, if John 16:13 can be trusted then I think it is safe to say that God preserved and transmitted truth during these convened councils. That’s just me though. Your thoughts?

 

[Porknpie]

It isn’t that I dislike the term protestant. It the inaccuracy of usage of the term that bothers me. It is used to present protestants as a monolithic “church” that has a single root, and has since splintered. It is used to portray all western non-Catholic communions as being somehow one communion that doesn’t agree, based on private interpretation. It is used to present a “protest” against the Catholic Church, when the fact is the term protestant comes from a protest of government restriction of religious free exercise at the 2nd Diet of Speyer. Most western non-Catholic groups were not a part of that - certainly not the Anglicans and their cousins the Methodists, etc.

Jon

Jon,

Are you saying that Methodists don’t consider themselves protestant? From UMC.org

On April 23, 1968, The United Methodist Church was created when Bishop Reuben H. Mueller, representing The Evangelical United Brethren Church, and Bishop Lloyd C. Wicke of The Methodist Church joined hands at the constituting General Conference in Dallas, Texas. With the words, “Lord of the Church, we are united in Thee, in Thy Church and now in The United Methodist Church,” the new denomination was given birth by two churches that had distinguished histories and influential ministries in various parts of the world.

**Theological traditions steeped in the Protestant Reformation **and Wesleyanism, similar ecclesiastical structures, and relationships that dated back almost two hundred years facilitated the union. In the Evangelical United Brethren heritage, for example, Philip William Otterbein, the principal founder of the United Brethren in Christ, assisted in the ordination of Francis Asbury to the superintendency of American Methodist work. Jacob Albright, through whose religious experience and leadership the Evangelical Association was begun, was nurtured in a Methodist class meeting following his conversion.

Read more about the history of The United Methodist Church by year:

Roots, 1736–1816
The United Methodist Church shares a common history and heritage with other Methodist and Wesleyan bodies. The lives and ministries of John Wesley (1703–1791) and of his brother, Charles (1707–1788), mark the origin of their common roots.

The Churches Grow, 1817–1843
The Second Great Awakening was the dominant religious development among Protestants in America in the first half of the nineteenth century. Through revivals and camp meetings sinners were brought to an experience of conversion. Circuit riding preachers and lay pastors knit them into a connection.

The Slavery Question and Civil War, 1844–1865

John Wesley was an ardent opponent of slavery. Many of the leaders of early American Methodism shared his hatred for this form of human bondage. The United Brethren in Christ took a strong stand against slavery, as church members could not sell a slave, and by 1837 ruled that slave owners could not continue as members. As the nineteenth century progressed, it became apparent that tensions were deepening in Methodism over the slavery question.

Reconstruction, Prosperity, and New Issues, 1866–1913
The Civil War dealt an especially harsh blow to The Methodist Episcopal Church, South. Its membership fell to two-thirds its pre-war strength. Many of its churches lay in ruins or were seriously damaged.

World War and More Change, 1914–1939
In the years immediately prior to World War I, there was much sympathy in the churches for negotiation and arbitration as visible alternatives to international armed conflict. Many church members and clergy openly professed pacifism.

Movement Toward Union, 1940–1967
Although Methodists, Evangelicals, and United Brethren each had published strong statements condemning war and advocating peaceful reconciliation among the nations, the strength of their positions was largely lost with American involvement in the hostilities of World War II.

**Developments and Changes Since 1968
When The United Methodist Church was created in 1968, it had approximately 11 million members, making it one of the largest Protestant churches in the world.**

Now, about them there Anglicans…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Perhaps Concordia needs to press the issue more. While to require it can be considered legalistic, encouraging and regularly offering it is an obligation of the Church and each local parish.

Jon

My childhood parish encouraged private confession just like using the sign of the cross, bowing at the name of Jesus, etc in catechism classes. The boys were also encouraged to be altar servers but never forced. Aside from Sundays, we went to church every Wednesday after school for Christian instruction, dinner and Vespers and returned on Saturday for a 2 hour catechism class. My life revolved around the Church; still does!

 

[benjohnson]

I feel the same way…except for the part about God being killed…but I think I see where you are going with that…

I almost forgot. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit gave the catholic church the grace needed to teach doctrinal truth even during those early catholic councils? If I was simply putting my trust in those councils, in terms of truth, based merely on the intelligence of those folks that were in charge, I might have some doubt. However, if John 16:13 can be trusted then I think it is safe to say that God preserved and transmitted truth during these convened councils. That’s just me though. Your thoughts?

Sorry for the ‘God being killed’ - that’s the latent agnostic in me speaking. What drew me to Christianity was that it was the religion of the downtrodden. God as the perfect victim is truly unique and true; it drew my attention!

I don’t think we can trust intelligence, as intelligence has led me to incorrect conclusions agains and again. I think those of us burdened with more brain than heart have to make ourselves open to the Holy Spirit.

That God shepherds His church, there can be no doubt - as we creatures seem to do our best to tear it down. It’s right to give thanks for His perseverance with our bumbling - even those great ecumenical councils hung by a thread, and even some councils like the ‘Robber Council’ got it wrong. So yes, the Holy Sprit preserves His church in the long run, though in the short term we do make a mess of it.

…

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